Discussion
I have just had my weekly newsletter from Whatcar magazine website. On it i read an interesting article about new European laws which may require all cars to have ABS in 2003 to help pedestrian safety.
This would totaly spoil the elise to make it another MX5 - MR2 -VX220 clone
Whats next compulsory baby seats in all cars ,wall paper ,an onboard Accident + Emergency unit
Yet again the European laws are going to make it harder for drivers to have some fun and drive anything that dosent run on rice.
Ill send an Email to the goverment or something protesting this
This would totaly spoil the elise to make it another MX5 - MR2 -VX220 clone
Whats next compulsory baby seats in all cars ,wall paper ,an onboard Accident + Emergency unit
Yet again the European laws are going to make it harder for drivers to have some fun and drive anything that dosent run on rice.
Ill send an Email to the goverment or something protesting this
I don't think you can dismiss ABS quite that easily. On the track I don't think ABS is needed, in fact I found using the cadence braking technique to be half the fun.
On the public roads where you are faced almost every road condition possible I think it's a very useful device indeed. This was proved to me by a situation where I had to dodge some numpty taking a corner wide down a narrow country road.
As soon as I see the car I yank the steering wheel over to the left to get out of the way of the oncoming vehicle. However this puts me into a part of the road covered by leaves and mud, I brake and the ABS kicks in helping me steer the car back on the dry section of the road.
I can tell you now if I were in the Elise I would have been completely arse over tit and probably in a hedgerow upside down. Now this isn't because I don't know how to drive but because another road user had forced me into a situation and I would have had no chance to correctly react to the conditions presented to me.
So ABS in extreme driving conditions is fantastic. So what about the Elise being fitted with it? As long as you could either turn it off or the system were not too intrusive I don't have a problem. I suppose it does take something away from it being a pure drivers car but I'm sure Lotus could figure out a system to complement it.
On the public roads where you are faced almost every road condition possible I think it's a very useful device indeed. This was proved to me by a situation where I had to dodge some numpty taking a corner wide down a narrow country road.
As soon as I see the car I yank the steering wheel over to the left to get out of the way of the oncoming vehicle. However this puts me into a part of the road covered by leaves and mud, I brake and the ABS kicks in helping me steer the car back on the dry section of the road.
I can tell you now if I were in the Elise I would have been completely arse over tit and probably in a hedgerow upside down. Now this isn't because I don't know how to drive but because another road user had forced me into a situation and I would have had no chance to correctly react to the conditions presented to me.
So ABS in extreme driving conditions is fantastic. So what about the Elise being fitted with it? As long as you could either turn it off or the system were not too intrusive I don't have a problem. I suppose it does take something away from it being a pure drivers car but I'm sure Lotus could figure out a system to complement it.
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Firstly the VX220 is no as pure a drivers car as an Elise and it is more likely to contend with the MR2 .
They are worlds apart I'm afraid, the VX220 may have a slight bias towards comfort but it's really just a dolled up Elise and certainly drives like one. The MR2 is not nearly the drivers car the Lotus.. sorry Vauxhall is... plus the MR2 weighs significantly more that the VX220.
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The only other mainstream car to be fitted with ABS and is like the Elise is the MGF/TF in my view
They share the same engine... and errr... that's pretty much all they have in common. Oh and the fuel cap...
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There is no problem with driving aids but my worry is weight
How much are the wheel sensors and little plastic box going to weigh exactly? Hardly going to make any impact on the power to weight ratio is it?
"the majority of the difference in mass between the VX and the S2 lies in the powertrain (60 kg ish), the brake discs and hubs (20kg ish) and the additional equipment the VX carries (10kg ish). The larger front wheels and tyres add another 6kg or so each, the exhaust system is some 10kg heavier, the body is about 20kg heavier. Altogether this comes to a difference of about 130kg in equivalent states." (thanks Arno)
20 kilos of unsprung weight isn't much, but it's about the difference between normal and magnesium alloys.
20 kilos of unsprung weight isn't much, but it's about the difference between normal and magnesium alloys.
The VX220 is a good car like every other good car ie. the MGF/TF ,MR2 ,MX5 ,Barchetta ,Z3 ,Boxter and TT but it takes something to make a totally brilliant sportscar like the Elise ,355 ,911 and Countach cars that will go down in history that everyone will remember as great sportscars in 20 years time.
MGF more similar to the Elsie than the VX220 ? Er, how can that be given the amount of component sharing, shared manufacturing lines, hair splitting reviews etc etc
ABS wouldn't hurt the Elise if applied correctly. Nobody copmpains abiut the VX brakes - plenty of power, feel, adjustment etc. Day to day you wouldn't even notice it. It could also be made switchable as Audio used to do. Why? Because on some surfaces ABS is slower to stop than non-ABS , for example soft snow (allows the snow to pack in front of a locked wheel and stops the car faster).
Given a choice I'd have ABS on my Elise for those heart stopping moments on the daily commute when someone pulls out in front of you without looking etc.
ABS wouldn't hurt the Elise if applied correctly. Nobody copmpains abiut the VX brakes - plenty of power, feel, adjustment etc. Day to day you wouldn't even notice it. It could also be made switchable as Audio used to do. Why? Because on some surfaces ABS is slower to stop than non-ABS , for example soft snow (allows the snow to pack in front of a locked wheel and stops the car faster).
Given a choice I'd have ABS on my Elise for those heart stopping moments on the daily commute when someone pulls out in front of you without looking etc.
Lotus should just stick 8 pin calipers and better disks on the Elise.
ABS would not allow the driver to be in full controll of the car and use his/her skills to get out of tricky situations .It would be an aid and that is what seperates a drivers car from an everyday car.
How heavy is ABS and where would they put it
ABS would not allow the driver to be in full controll of the car and use his/her skills to get out of tricky situations .It would be an aid and that is what seperates a drivers car from an everyday car.
How heavy is ABS and where would they put it
personally i would want abs - for similar reason to why i didn't want it on a motorbike.
takes away control.
yes it will stop you locking up and will allow you to steer and brake (even more important on a bike)
but you best bet for safety in either machine is forward planning. Ie not chucking it down the road and hoping gizmos will save you... It's a truer test of driving ability - if you want abs - go for it
but please save me and a few others from being forced to have it !
BTW a locked wheel only brakes 30% less effeciently than a spun wheel.
takes away control.
yes it will stop you locking up and will allow you to steer and brake (even more important on a bike)
but you best bet for safety in either machine is forward planning. Ie not chucking it down the road and hoping gizmos will save you... It's a truer test of driving ability - if you want abs - go for it
but please save me and a few others from being forced to have it !
BTW a locked wheel only brakes 30% less effeciently than a spun wheel.
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Ie not chucking it down the road and hoping gizmos will save you... It's a truer test of driving ability - if you want abs - go for it but please save me and a few others from being forced to have it !
How can forward planning help if some numpty in front of you decides to do something completely random and mind numbingly stupid?
Or what about if you find yourself in conditions that you couldn't plan for?
The fact is ABS has been getting better and better and I would challenge anyone to out brake a new car in the wet without ABS.
If ABS is so useless why is it banned F1? Why would they get rid of a technology that meant the cars couldn't brake as well?
I have no issues with ABS and I can only see it helping people out of situations rather than impeding their progress. The fact is for the ABS to engage you must actually lock the wheels up first. Frankly if you are driving on the public road at 100% then you will find yourself banned pretty quickly or at least looking like a complete tit.
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How can forward planning help if some numpty in front of you decides to do something completely random and mind numbingly stupid?
Or what about if you find yourself in conditions that you couldn't plan for?
1st point - leave a bigger gap ....
2nd point - so cars with abs never crash then ???
Don't be so childish - I said - Abs is fine for those that want it - I am sure its an excellent safety aid in big heavy cars - with servo assisted brakes ..
the elise does NOT have servos - so requires much foot pushsing before it will lock and very little lift to get it to unlock - so it's not the same drama as if it were a saloon barge thing with servos.
All I am saying is why make it a matter of legislation
what purpose does that serve !
its an excellent safety aid in big heavy cars - with servo assisted brakes ..
Good point,cars that are heavier and are built and designed for long journeys in luxury ie.Mercadies s-Class or Executive cars which are never used on the track but still have good performance need ABS as they are used as everyday road cars more.But the Elise is a drivers car and a big point is full controll.
I have no issue with cars having it but to make it law is wrong because it takes the whole point out of the Elise
Good point,cars that are heavier and are built and designed for long journeys in luxury ie.Mercadies s-Class or Executive cars which are never used on the track but still have good performance need ABS as they are used as everyday road cars more.But the Elise is a drivers car and a big point is full controll.
I have no issue with cars having it but to make it law is wrong because it takes the whole point out of the Elise
ABS weight? Probably about 2 to 5 kgs. At least, this is what Motorcycles with ABS put on when equipped with it. The sensor and toothed ring do not add a lot per wheel (unsprung mass ...). And, you do not need a servo assisted brake for ABS, just look at motorcycles again (but not at the newest BMW-System, they have electrical servo assist for the brakes). A current ABS with very good test results can be found on the Honda VFR 800 ABS. The tester wrote something like "only when you have experienced everything you can experience while braking and not locking up, then the ABS kicks in"
Sorry guys I guess you missed my point
I was not saying that ABS adds too much weight
I was saying that with powerful servos on cars - a light touch with the foot CAN lock the brakes - therefore abs is Useful - desireable even
But on the elise - I would prefer not to have it because its unnecessary as without the servo you have to try reasonable hard to lock the brakes and its is quite easy to unlock them .....
I have not said there are no good abs systems out there, I would always want ABS on a larger heavier car
I just don't want it on EVERY car by law !!!!!!
I was not saying that ABS adds too much weight
I was saying that with powerful servos on cars - a light touch with the foot CAN lock the brakes - therefore abs is Useful - desireable even
But on the elise - I would prefer not to have it because its unnecessary as without the servo you have to try reasonable hard to lock the brakes and its is quite easy to unlock them .....
I have not said there are no good abs systems out there, I would always want ABS on a larger heavier car
I just don't want it on EVERY car by law !!!!!!
One main point of this car is weight saving they spend loads to make this car as light as possible but the goverment is going to be making them add more -Its not fair
If the Elises brakes need upgraded which they dont but why not add 6 or 8 pin calipers and better disks to make it stop in seconds and the calipers would apply braking force more efficiently across the disk making the wheels less likely to lock.By the time you have steadily applied the breaks to full it will have stopped the car
If the Elises brakes need upgraded which they dont but why not add 6 or 8 pin calipers and better disks to make it stop in seconds and the calipers would apply braking force more efficiently across the disk making the wheels less likely to lock.By the time you have steadily applied the breaks to full it will have stopped the car
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One main point of this car is weight saving they spend loads to make this car as light as possible but the goverment is going to be making them add more -Its not fair.
You are talking about 5kgs of weight here? That's practically nothing! Lotus themselves have started putting aircon in their cars which is another 15kgs... plus sound proofing etc..... That's why the new 111s weighs 100kgs more than the original did!!!
Stop talking rubbish about the brakes as well. The existing system is still incredibly powerful for the size and weight. Most cars that are twice the size don't have the same size discs or calipers so stop talking rubbish about upgrading the brakes!!!!
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