Next Elise - what do you want?
Discussion
Kenzle said:
Honestly I'd change very little. I love my little Elise.
If I wanted a luxury two-seater with refinement, room for luggage, electric roof etc I would have bought a Z4 or a Boxster.
Not sure why people are assuming that the alternative to an Elise is a Thames barge. The Alpine is already as (actually rather more) refined and well equipped as a Cayman , but smaller and 300+kg lighter. Personally wouldn't consider buying a Z4 which is even heavier. It's all very well saying you like the car as it is (I do too - but only as a weekend toy) but it doesn't sell enough and if you want the brand to continue (I do!) they have give the new model more of what the market demands - as well as keeping the existing customer base on side. If I wanted a luxury two-seater with refinement, room for luggage, electric roof etc I would have bought a Z4 or a Boxster.
bcr5784 said:
Kenzle said:
Honestly I'd change very little. I love my little Elise.
If I wanted a luxury two-seater with refinement, room for luggage, electric roof etc I would have bought a Z4 or a Boxster.
Not sure why people are assuming that the alternative to an Elise is a Thames barge. The Alpine is already as (actually rather more) refined and well equipped as a Cayman , but smaller and 300+kg lighter. Personally wouldn't consider buying a Z4 which is even heavier. It's all very well saying you like the car as it is (I do too - but only as a weekend toy) but it doesn't sell enough and if you want the brand to continue (I do!) they have give the new model more of what the market demands - as well as keeping the existing customer base on side. If I wanted a luxury two-seater with refinement, room for luggage, electric roof etc I would have bought a Z4 or a Boxster.
An Elise IS and SHOULD BE a weekend toy first and foremost and in my mind should demand compromises from its owner.
It needs to have the same vibe and respect you get when arriving somewhere as you would in a GT3 et al - the knowing nod that says you’re recognised as an enthusiast, not just a poseur.
In fact this is the secret sauce you get with the Alpine and all the current Lotus range. The Alpine is a Cayman except you’ve compromised on space and “quality” to gain in driving pleasure, it’s hardcore in the eyes of the public even if not in reality. The Evora plays a similar role against the 911.
You can turn up at any car event or track in an Elise and it earns respect - it’s its own thing, not a cheap alternative. You can own a Mclaren and still desire an Elise as there is nothing else that does the same job.
It needs to have the same vibe and respect you get when arriving somewhere as you would in a GT3 et al - the knowing nod that says you’re recognised as an enthusiast, not just a poseur.
In fact this is the secret sauce you get with the Alpine and all the current Lotus range. The Alpine is a Cayman except you’ve compromised on space and “quality” to gain in driving pleasure, it’s hardcore in the eyes of the public even if not in reality. The Evora plays a similar role against the 911.
You can turn up at any car event or track in an Elise and it earns respect - it’s its own thing, not a cheap alternative. You can own a Mclaren and still desire an Elise as there is nothing else that does the same job.
sato said:
I agree - the Alpine gets the right balance as far as I am concerned. If it was manual and soft top I'd probably have one by now. But that's also the problem, Alpine have stolen that space now - the market isn't big enough for two very similar cars. Purely from a business perspective a new Elise would have to come up with a different formula.
Don't disagree - the Elise shouldn't go head to head with the Alpine, but doesn't need to. It has some significant advantages that it needs to build on. Steering is much better (at least most of the time), it has a manual gearbox (which the Alpine is unlikely ever to get) and it's significantly narrower and lighter. Highly relevant is the fact that it comes as a convertible -it will take a lot of re-engineering to make the Alpine open. (But that reminds me that the Elise hood needs re-engineering to be easier to use - perhaps replaced with a stowable targa top)I guess this is the tension with Lotus right now - I love that they feel special and make you feel like part of a clique as much as I love the sheer driving brilliance, but it’s not a niche which generates sales. “For the drivers” is a good tag line but I worry that current owners like me will feel alienated by the future Lotus range.
giveitfish said:
I guess this is the tension with Lotus right now - I love that they feel special and make you feel like part of a clique as much as I love the sheer driving brilliance, but it’s not a niche which generates sales. “For the drivers” is a good tag line but I worry that current owners like me will feel alienated by the future Lotus range.
The problem they have is that that average petrolhead wants a car with all the toys and refinement nowadays. There are only a few of us left that actually want the pure driving experience without all the manufactured noise, auto gearboxes and gadgets to wow their friends with.
Lotus need to try and get more people back focusing into the bare basics of driving rather than expecting the car to do everything for you. That's all part of the fun of driving.
Another thing that stops a lot people buying an Elise or Exige is the size of a lot of people nowadays. We are all getting bigger waistlines hence why all these hideous performance SUV things have become so popular. So few now want to get down into a low car. A lot couldn't even get into them if they wanted to.
I get the impression that some regard "hard core" as part of the DNA of Lotus. It has certainly become part of the DNA of the Elise/Exige but historically Lotus weren't hard core at all (at least once they had passed the 7 onto Caterham). The original Elan and Europa were, by the standards of mainstream sportscars (MG and Triumph) actually quite plush as were subsequent models. It was always Chapman's intention to push Lotus up market. The success of the Elise perhaps encouraged Lotus to go more hard core - but I'm not convinced it was a sensible long-term strategy. Porsche sell halo models like the GT3 on the back of their more mainstream offerings - not as their core business.
The biggest problem Lotus face at the moment to me is that they kind of sit in a no mans land. As has been said they appeal to the hardcore petrolhead who wanting driving fun over everything else and really “knows” about cars. The problem is that guy also knows that either wait a year pick one up second hand save some money or buy a 6 year old one that has the same tub basic engine etc. Most don’t walk in and hand over 50k for a new Elise. The not so interested more casual petrolhead doesn’t see an Elise as the latest shiny thing that will impress his mates plus might be a bit to much of a chore to own. Plus probably thinks they are unreliable because never been told otherwise.
That leaves super loyal wealthy owners who apparently there only a few hundred of a year.
I have always thought best way to help Lotus would actually be to some how get bums on seats. What sells a Lotus the driving experience get people in the things I would guess the amount of people that would jump out saying I need one of those would be larger than you think.
This happened to me through my Dad I got invited to a Lotus event got given the keys to an exige 380 sport. I jumped out of the thing buzzing in a way I haven’t since I quit downhill ski racing. It sealed it in my head, I don’t have the money at the moment but I have agreed a plan with the wife to buy one once I have the money in place. Nothing else will do in my mind.
There is nothing wrong with the product really just need to get people more aware of them. Most of my friends who have Porsche’s etc have never even sat in a Lotus and wouldn’t know were to go if they wanted to.
That leaves super loyal wealthy owners who apparently there only a few hundred of a year.
I have always thought best way to help Lotus would actually be to some how get bums on seats. What sells a Lotus the driving experience get people in the things I would guess the amount of people that would jump out saying I need one of those would be larger than you think.
This happened to me through my Dad I got invited to a Lotus event got given the keys to an exige 380 sport. I jumped out of the thing buzzing in a way I haven’t since I quit downhill ski racing. It sealed it in my head, I don’t have the money at the moment but I have agreed a plan with the wife to buy one once I have the money in place. Nothing else will do in my mind.
There is nothing wrong with the product really just need to get people more aware of them. Most of my friends who have Porsche’s etc have never even sat in a Lotus and wouldn’t know were to go if they wanted to.
I think the next major chassis revision needs to allow for two model streams.
1 - A modestly powered response to the MX-5, nice interior, bit of leather and a stereo you can hear.
2 - A track car that would appeal to existing Elise owners, same formula as today.
Sort of how at the higher end of the budget you can choose between an Exige and Evora depending on what you want, the Elise could probably benefit from the same.
Currently (if even still available) all you get at the lower end of the price range is a 1.6 engine which really just isn't up to much in a sporty chassis and you get no real comforts or luxuries to make the car "nice" in other areas. It would be better if we had the 250 Cup at one end of the spectrum and a slower/comfier one at the other end that could take some sales from Mazda.
1 - A modestly powered response to the MX-5, nice interior, bit of leather and a stereo you can hear.
2 - A track car that would appeal to existing Elise owners, same formula as today.
Sort of how at the higher end of the budget you can choose between an Exige and Evora depending on what you want, the Elise could probably benefit from the same.
Currently (if even still available) all you get at the lower end of the price range is a 1.6 engine which really just isn't up to much in a sporty chassis and you get no real comforts or luxuries to make the car "nice" in other areas. It would be better if we had the 250 Cup at one end of the spectrum and a slower/comfier one at the other end that could take some sales from Mazda.
Lotus don't, can't, and shouldn't be competing with a cheap mass produced steel bodied ragtop from Mazda. They aren't a volume manufacturer, nor one with ambitions to be. They need to make larger margins on smaller volumes, and being seen as being in the same class as Mazda will hurt them there. They also need to be looking at selling a car which justifies the 40k-60k price tag - if it does, fitting it with a marginally cheaper engine will not enable it to be sold for 20k.
Bluntly, they need buyers to see a 50k Lotus how they'd see a 50k McLaren, not how they'd see a 50k Mazda.
Bluntly, they need buyers to see a 50k Lotus how they'd see a 50k McLaren, not how they'd see a 50k Mazda.
otolith said:
Bluntly, they need buyers to see a 50k Lotus how they'd see a 50k McLaren, not how they'd see a 50k Mazda.
I think that's a great way of putting it, and personally yeah that's how I'd like to view Lotus.I feel like the company would benefit greatly though from a bigger presence, more sustainable dealer network and a slight chance of reputation. Everyone that I run into who is vaguely enthusiastic about cars all make similar assumptions about my Exige and are often shocked if they get to spend any real time in and around the car.
If Lotus could find a platform for the next Elise that would flex in both directions, then they would have an opportunity to try to change that - even if it means "diluting the brand".
Back to the 50k McLaren point, currently Lotus are a long way short of that - even the Lotus models topping £100k are just not being considered by (most) people who are in the market for an entry level super car despite them being in my opinion excellent cars. Lotus would actually stand a really good chance of getting "my" £100k if I were in that position, but that's primarily through brand loyalty and knowing what the community has to offer.
Lotus could do with a way to get a few more people thinking like that, and I just feel like a more user friendly model to compete with the more mainstream market would be a way for them to achieve that - even though I'd never buy one myself!
I have to be honest, having recently bought a Cup 250, until I read a 'what shall I look at thread' on here I had forgotten that Lotus existed!
They need to market their cars more.
On topic, the current Elise is head and shoulders a better car to drive than the Alpine because it has a mechanical connection between driver and car. Power steering and automatic boxes may sell cars to commuters, but they dilute the driving experience and move vehicles ever more towards watching TV vs actually driving.
We have a 2019 RS5 in the house. It's 1.7 tons and awash with 'stuff'. It goes like a stabbed rat and is excellent for blasting across countries. It's well equipped, quiet, smooth and absolutely everything that an Elise categorically should never be.
So what should the new Elise be like? We'll, sales volumes aside, like the current one is my answer.
Defo stay supercharged, not turbocharged. The throttle response is needed for blipping on downshifts.
They need to market their cars more.
On topic, the current Elise is head and shoulders a better car to drive than the Alpine because it has a mechanical connection between driver and car. Power steering and automatic boxes may sell cars to commuters, but they dilute the driving experience and move vehicles ever more towards watching TV vs actually driving.
We have a 2019 RS5 in the house. It's 1.7 tons and awash with 'stuff'. It goes like a stabbed rat and is excellent for blasting across countries. It's well equipped, quiet, smooth and absolutely everything that an Elise categorically should never be.
So what should the new Elise be like? We'll, sales volumes aside, like the current one is my answer.
Defo stay supercharged, not turbocharged. The throttle response is needed for blipping on downshifts.
Baldchap said:
I have to be honest, having recently bought a Cup 250, until I read a 'what shall I look at thread' on here I had forgotten that Lotus existed!
They need to market their cars more.
On topic, the current Elise is head and shoulders a better car to drive than the Alpine because it has a mechanical connection between driver and car. Power steering and automatic boxes may sell cars to commuters, but they dilute the driving experience and move vehicles ever more towards watching TV vs actually driving.
We have a 2019 RS5 in the house. It's 1.7 tons and awash with 'stuff'. It goes like a stabbed rat and is excellent for blasting across countries. It's well equipped, quiet, smooth and absolutely everything that an Elise categorically should never be.
So what should the new Elise be like? We'll, sales volumes aside, like the current one is my answer.
Defo stay supercharged, not turbocharged. The throttle response is needed for blipping on downshifts.
While I don't really disagree with your drift - and on a sunny day down the right road I'd prefer the Sport 220 I recently drove over my Alpine - but imo you overstate the case. Have you actually driven an A110? Many who have conclude that the power steering and lack of manual don't really matter half as much as you (or I) think they might - the car is still a hoot to drive. If I could justify an Elise as a weekend/track car in addition to an Alpine (for the rest of the time, holidays, boring long journeys), I'd buy one - but I can't. That is the problem Lotus face.They need to market their cars more.
On topic, the current Elise is head and shoulders a better car to drive than the Alpine because it has a mechanical connection between driver and car. Power steering and automatic boxes may sell cars to commuters, but they dilute the driving experience and move vehicles ever more towards watching TV vs actually driving.
We have a 2019 RS5 in the house. It's 1.7 tons and awash with 'stuff'. It goes like a stabbed rat and is excellent for blasting across countries. It's well equipped, quiet, smooth and absolutely everything that an Elise categorically should never be.
So what should the new Elise be like? We'll, sales volumes aside, like the current one is my answer.
Defo stay supercharged, not turbocharged. The throttle response is needed for blipping on downshifts.
I'm very happy with my Elise as it is but admittedly it's a second car that I only use mainly in good weather and on quiet twisty roads. Having said that, I do use it for long distances - for example from Manchester to the Aviemore area via a "scenic route" in a single day with camping and walking gear.
Changes I would like would be better headlights, a better wiper, a bit more boot space and easier to get in and out with the roof on. A larger fuel tank would be welcome too to avoid having to plan routes via where I can refill on super unleaded.
What I think the next Elise must have is: a manual gearbox (my other car, a BMW, is automatic and for me it really spoils the fun of a B road even when using the paddles), no turbo as I value the throttle response and noise (supercharger as at present is of course OK), unassisted steering or a very good hydraulic set up to retain the steering feel (something else really lacking in my BMW), about the same weight and about the same size as being narrow makes it so much better to thread down a B road (I laugh at the width of modern super cars and even a new Boxster seems massive). And keep a close ratio gearbox.
For me the economy is fine - driving briskly down B roads I can get a similar mpg in my Elise as I do in my diesel BMW - although of course it would be different on a motorway. And while in the real world it's not as fast as the 0-60 would suggest, I find the performance perfectly adequate for road use.
Changes I would like would be better headlights, a better wiper, a bit more boot space and easier to get in and out with the roof on. A larger fuel tank would be welcome too to avoid having to plan routes via where I can refill on super unleaded.
What I think the next Elise must have is: a manual gearbox (my other car, a BMW, is automatic and for me it really spoils the fun of a B road even when using the paddles), no turbo as I value the throttle response and noise (supercharger as at present is of course OK), unassisted steering or a very good hydraulic set up to retain the steering feel (something else really lacking in my BMW), about the same weight and about the same size as being narrow makes it so much better to thread down a B road (I laugh at the width of modern super cars and even a new Boxster seems massive). And keep a close ratio gearbox.
For me the economy is fine - driving briskly down B roads I can get a similar mpg in my Elise as I do in my diesel BMW - although of course it would be different on a motorway. And while in the real world it's not as fast as the 0-60 would suggest, I find the performance perfectly adequate for road use.
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