Next Elise - what do you want?

[Rocket.]

Part of the problem for Lotus with the next Elise is 'who is the target market?' Sadly it's not enthusiasts of our age (I'm guessing most posting here are 40 plus?) so I wouldn't expect to be anywhere near as basic as the original or even the current car, in that case it will be heavier, also must not forget today crash legislation etc.

I can imagine it may end up like an Alfa 4C but hopefully one that is narrower and actually handles and drives like a Lotus, being a bit more usable also which is probably no bad thing.

So:

Small overall footprint.

Engine wise I reckon a 3 cylinder maybe turbo for packaging and tunability, (Cosworth developed maybe?) even though I'd prefer n/a.

Manual box would be a must for me but im sure there will be a DCT option.

Carbon tub maybe? If they got it under anything 1000kg I'd be impressed.

A/C would be nice otherwise no other modern tech for me thanks.

100pct no power steering and on sensible size wheels and tires.

All that wrapped up in a nicely styled modern, with nod to the past, style body would be nice.

Max £50k price tag.

[gareth h]

Headlights that light and a radio that works should probably be de rigueur these days.

[Tickle]

gareth h said:

Headlights that light and a radio that works should probably be de rigueur these days.

I think you are asking a bit much!

[bcr5784]

Tickle said:

I think you are asking a bit much!

If he is then Lotus will go under.

[Zarco]

bcr5784 said:

Tickle said:

I think you are asking a bit much!

If he is then Lotus will go under.

Whoosh.

[CABC]

owners love their Elises and so don't want any change for weight or frivolity!
That said, the A110 is comfortable and light.

Anyway, playing the game:
- closer gearing 1 - 4
- 180hp nasp (Skyactive style)
- lighter
- maybe a few mm longer. put the engine further in the middle
- nicer finish, but still bare.

nothing beats it for what it is. which is why the next Elise will be quite different!! So mine's a keeper.

bcr, did you see Harry's garage? he proposed the Evora 410 rather than the A110. i love both, but i can see the allure of the Evora now - it's been finely honed over 10 yrs and feels resolved. My GT86 will be replaced by an Alpine/Evora/Supra/Mustang/MX5. that's a mixed list and depends on my mood. Not afraid of mods, the Skyactive MX5 with 220 and coilovers is quite a proposition. thread drift.... Elise, my best car ever. as is.

[CABC]

Second reply, this time more realistic!

I'd say competing with Alpine is not such a bad idea. it would kind of create that segment - not Cayster sized/weight but driver focused yet comfortable. Have other manufacturers join in and the magazines wouldn't be having the inevitable Porsche comparisons. Define a new space, one that Porsche moved away from and the Elise didn't grow into. A110 is a fine benchmark. 4C could be relaunched?

This is not a UK issue either, but creating a segment of drivers cars for the Chinese and Indians. Once Geely has created the brand in these markets a 1000kg car could be aspirational, much like a 1500kg sports GT is today. The platform would be ready for new powertrains and probably be 2 pedals only.

The market for second and third cars is huge in these new markets, that's what an Elise is, not a first car like Porsche.

It'll be years before a light EV sports car i think, not too far but not in next 3 years until batt tech or fuel cells happen.

[bcr5784]

CABC said:

bcr, did you see Harry's garage? he proposed the Evora 410 rather than the A110. i love both, but i can see the allure of the Evora now - it's been finely honed over 10 yrs and feels resolved. My GT86 will be replaced by an Alpine/Evora/Supra/Mustang/MX5. that's a mixed list and depends on my mood. Not afraid of mods, the Skyactive MX5 with 220 and coilovers is quite a proposition. thread drift.... Elise, my best car ever. as is.

I did and I actually drove a 410 before I test drove the Alpine. I can see where Harry is coming from - the 410 exhaust note is much nicer and it has a really nice manual gearbox (ratios too high though). Personally I preferred the Alpine's lack of mass, but I can certainly see others preferring the 410. I would have bought a 400 had the Alpine not been my preference. I certainly preferred it to my 981S or a 911 - but the interior is low rent for an £80k car which wouldn't fuss me - but I can see many Porsche owners turning their nose up at it. All that said it's a pity more don't try the Evora before buying the more obvious choices, it's much underrated.

I see the 400 has now been discontinued and the 410 starts at £90k - probably nearer 100k with some extras. Difficult to justify that much new.

Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 22 July 09:17

[bcr5784]

ash73 said:

Nobody cares about small lightweight sports cars outside the UK. The reason we care is we used to see them race every week at local circuits or on telly; that's what sold 911s, Escort Cosworths, Caterhams, etc. If he wants to create a market either go racing (and win!), or get some product placement in a programme on telly (or a film). Make it cool to own one!

Adding tat to appeal to the Chinese is a fundamental mistake, imo.

Not entirely true - the Japanese are mad keen on both Caterhams and Alpines. They had to run a lottery for who would get one of the 50 Premier Edition Alpines. They stopped people subscribing when 1000 people applied! Japan looks likely to eventually become the second biggest market for Alpines (after France).

[mikiec]

Maybe they should have a crack at the ‘enthusiast’ Boxster market. Now that Boxsters are heavy turboed things I think there is an opportunity. Potentially 2 versions, a spartan lightweight 4 cylinder at around 1000kgs and a GT model , around 1200kgs with a 6/V6 and a few more luxuries. So one more a focused weekender and one that allows a bit more touring.
A slightly larger boot, auto option and a bit more sound deadening.

There is nothing faster than a mx5 that is NA and manual and globally that should be enough of a market for lotus, if they do it well.

[Baldchap]

gareth h said:

Headlights that light and a radio that works should probably be de rigueur these days.

The radio definitely works. I can hear my SMS messages arriving through it!

[CABC]

ash73 said:

Nobody cares about small lightweight sports cars outside the UK. The reason we care is we used to see them race every week at local circuits or on telly; that's what sold 911s, Escort Cosworths, Caterhams, etc. If he wants to create a market either go racing (and win!), or get some product placement in a programme on telly (or a film). Make it cool to own one!

Adding tat to appeal to the Chinese is a fundamental mistake, imo.

i don't agree.
i bought my Elise without realising they raced! it was a fun road car decision. the fun element of heavy cars is limited in the real world and in emerging markets the number of people who can consider purchasing a weekend car is growing.

Geely are repositioning the brand right now so it will be cool to own a Lotus in the new world. this really isn't that difficult and has plenty of precedent (Burberry). repositioning in the UK is, and will take more than a generation (Skoda).

I agree that generally people don't care about lightweight sports cars (Jalopnik comments on new TVR "er, just get a 'vette"!).
But... with other cars getting heavy, ability to pay and brand acceptability that can change. A110....
i reassert my point that positioning alongside the Alpine is fine, it validates the space. people love pigeon holes.

[CABC]

bcr5784 said:

Personally I preferred the Alpine's lack of mass,

i fully recognise that aspect, which is why the Elise has the most secure slot in my garage!

My Alpine competition includes a Mustang. car guys sometimes have a bizarre shortlist!

bcr5784 said:

but I can see many Porsche owners turning their nose up at it. All that said it's a pity more don't try the Evora before buying the more obvious choices, it's much underrated.

i think "many" (most?) Porsche owners would reject the inside of an Evora. There's a good % that could be swayed though, with improvements, dealer support, and an improving image. i hope not too soon because i fancy a 400/410 secondhand...

[bcr5784]

CABC said:

bcr5784 said:

Personally I preferred the Alpine's lack of mass,

i fully recognise that aspect, which is why the Elise has the most secure slot in my garage!

As a matter of interest has anyone weighed their S220/250. Lotus have always been a little creative with their weights (not as bad as Alfa though) and I'm guessing that fully fueled, soundproofed, carpeted and airconditioned you might not have much change out of 1000kg at the moment.

[W211]

OK my 2p worth.

I'm a former Elise owner and wish I hadn't sold it (or that I had the cash to buy and run another).

I guess what I want is for Lotus to succeed and survive so if that means the next Elise has to grow some more "mass appeal" I can live with that. I just don't want them to change it TOO much.

My formula would be something like:

2 litre petrol turbo tuned for 300hp, a nice noise and some driving character. Maybe the Volvo t5 would work?

Ingress a little easier

A little more shoulder room for us fuller-figured types

If they can keep the weight down to a tonne and the price under £50k, that would be superb.

[otolith]

bcr5784 said:

As a matter of interest has anyone weighed their S220/250. Lotus have always been a little creative with their weights (not as bad as Alfa though) and I'm guessing that fully fueled, soundproofed, carpeted and airconditioned you might not have much change out of 1000kg at the moment.

Some actual weights here, though nothing recent.

https://wiki.seloc.org/a/Elise_weight

Would be interesting to know how much this saved;

The cost savings started instantly with Gales setting up a 'lightweight laboratory'; he put every component used in building a Lotus on a large table, and attached price and weight tags, with the aim of reducing both. Many parts were re-engineered either internally or by Lotus suppliers, and savings of five to 10 per cent were made

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/best-of-bri...

[bcr5784]

otolith said:

Some actual weights here, though nothing recent.

https://wiki.seloc.org/a/Elise_weight

Would be interesting to know how much this saved;

The cost savings started instantly with Gales setting up a 'lightweight laboratory'; he put every component used in building a Lotus on a large table, and attached price and weight tags, with the aim of reducing both. Many parts were re-engineered either internally or by Lotus suppliers, and savings of five to 10 per cent were made

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/best-of-bri...

It was nice to see that Lotus are focussing on light weight seriously, but it does seem they are still coy about quoting DIN weights - hence the question. Apparently since WLTP new cars will come with itheir WLTP weight - which includes all the options you specify. Should stop all the manufacturers playing fast and loose with figures.

[highway]

I drove a 220 at the weekend (and a 250 Cup) back to back with my S1 111S. Remarkable how the new cars retain so much Elise DNA. The new cars deal with bumps without leaving you wanting to wince. They feel much more substantial. Still great steering (though the wheel isn’t pretty) and far better brake pedal feel than the S2’s I owned.

Throttle response isn’t as immediate as a k series car. You also need to have ‘sport’ engaged as without the throttle response really feels blunted.

I can’t see the next Elise being anything other than a Boxster rival. Nothing else would make commercial sense.

[bcr5784]

highway said:

I drove a 220 at the weekend (and a 250 Cup) back to back with my S1 111S. Remarkable how the new cars retain so much Elise DNA. The new cars deal with bumps without leaving you wanting to wince. They feel much more substantial. Still great steering (though the wheel isn’t pretty) and far better brake pedal feel than the S2’s I owned.

Throttle response isn’t as immediate as a k series car. You also need to have ‘sport’ engaged as without the throttle response really feels blunted.

I can’t see the next Elise being anything other than a Boxster rival. Nothing else would make commercial sense.

Interesting comment about throttle response - I knew things had gone down hill since emissions ruled. There is a lot of nonsense talked about the throttle response of NA cars - it's not a given. I did find the response of the 220 good - much better than my 981 Cayman - but not as good (from memory) as (say) the original Cooper S. Kangaroo petrol is pretty much unobtainable these days - though I did find an (oldish) Caterham with some.

As you say, for commercial success, the Boxster must be a major target. However the new Elise will need a lot more refinement for success against it - it's actually a tad quieter (roof up) than its coupe sibling. Manage that level of refinement there is no reason why a new Elise can't pinch sales from both the Alpine and Cayman too.

[CABC]

Lotus comments from Evija launch that next car will have ICE and then it'll be electric.
i wonder whether the ICE will power a small car (Elise) or something bigger (Esprit)?