Elise 111S or 111r?

[otolith]

kambites said:

I thought the SC was based on the "S" engine not the "R" (can't remember the Toyota model numbers)? Might be wrong though.

I think the SC uses the 2ZZ-GE like the R/111R, not the 1ZZ-FE in the 1.8S. Wiki agrees with me, but that's not much better than "bloke down the pub agrees with me"

[The Bandit]

otolith said:

kambites said:

I thought the SC was based on the "S" engine not the "R" (can't remember the Toyota model numbers)? Might be wrong though.

I think the SC uses the 2ZZ-GE like the R/111R, not the 1ZZ-FE in the 1.8S. Wiki agrees with me, but that's not much better than "bloke down the pub agrees with me"

You are correct Mr Otolith

[kambites]

Fair enough.

[duncs]

kambites said:

duncs said:

The SC is the 111R engine although the SC gives about 30bhp more and far more torque.The cam change is not set a 6250rpm but changes in relation to engine load, giving a much more driveable car.

I thought the SC was based on the "S" engine not the "R" (can't remember the Toyota model numbers)? Might be wrong though.

duncs said:

Something that is rarely mentioned in these debates is the better build quality, brakes, suspension on the 111R - MUCH better in my experience. If you can afford it go for one 2006 or younger as they are better still with a few extra goodies.

Interestingly, the thing that really put me off the 111R, was the brakes; servo assistance just didn't seem to suit the car. In my experience, the difference in other stuff is not really 111S v 111R, but more down to the age of the car. I'm not sure I could see a difference in build quality between a 111S and 111R that rolled off the production line on the same day.

Yep, SC is effectively the 111R engine with SC + remap.

I know what you mean about the servo brakes, but for road driving (and changing between modern hatch and elise every few days) I found the non-servo brakes to be a bit too scary for an emergency - probably ok if its your only car and you get 100% used to them - I never did! In 2006 the "free travel" in the servo'd brake pedal got sorted resulting in much better feel - perfect in fact! The build quality improved year on year so it makes sense that a later 111R (they only overlapped for about 1.5 years) will be better (edit: fair comment about cars built the same year!). Also, the spring rates changed on the 111R giving (in my experience) a much less 'crashy' (although no softer) ride than the 111S. I've owned 2 of each and driven a few more and the 111R always feels to drive in a more compliant manner without any loss of handling. Just my opinion!

Edited by duncs on Monday 29th November 14:35

[arbr]

So, if i got this right, the SC is really not an option. It's quite expensive and will just add more power on the second cam. I think the 111R is already hugely powerful compared to the weight of the vehicle. I currently drive cars with around 250ps and 1400/1500kg, so this will be a different experience acceleration and especially grip wise.

Is there really a clear difference between a <2006 and >2006 111R? Does the current R (with the same engine) differ a lot from the 111R in build quality and extra's?

What is the difference of a younger 111R compared to an older one? For example i have seen some interiors with a sort of cloth finish on the dash, where the other are just plain plastic.

For me ABS will really be a plus. TC i can do without. Normally there's only one person to blame when TC would have helped (the driver), but when it comes to ABS there is also a big chance that another person (other drivers) are to blame. Being able to steer whilst braking is such a huge advantage in real life that I really think it is a must-have option...

[Gooby]

In 2006 the 111R got a new pedal box, this improves the heel n toe set up and the brakes have more feel. Pre 2006 cars can be significantly improved with braded hoses, good pads & disks and a decent brake fluid (All things you will do anyway).

The 111s and 111R are equal in speed terms for everyday hooning but after about 80mph the 'R will pull away from the 111S. I does come down to the skill and balls of the driver. With a decent suspension and geo, the 111R will corner better than a standard S160 (in the right hands, but so would a 111S!).

It is a swings and roundabouts question. More power and more mass or less power and less mass. The 111S can easily be engine swapped with a honda but the 111R will also have Honda-ability soon. The standard ride quality of the R is better and less crashy over bumps but so what, if you dont like it there are a hundred kits to upgrade your suspension to do what you want. Standard yota engines are a bit rattly but the standard K is a but less refined and once you get a decent 'zorst on the beast you will never know and too busy smiling from ear to ear! Both engines have thier problems. The K series gearbox, gearchange is awkward and a bit "rough" but the yota gearbox has been known to pop at higher powers (260 bhp and up). The 6th gear on the R makes it more economical on the motorway but the few pence difference is not worth noticing as the K is more frugal anyway.

It will come down to if you enjoy the characteristics of the R engine over the K series engine.

A 120bhp S2 (Or S1) is just as much fun as a 260bhp zige, The frustrating thing about the lower power cars is that they will get taken but fast fords etc.

[chevronb37]

I test drove a 2004 111R and couldn't get along with either seats or brakes. The post-2006 pedal box is lovely with easy heal and toe and nice linear feel to all the pedals and a weighting which seems more in balance with the gearbox and steering. The driver's seat in the earlier car was dreaful, but that might be a one-off. Certainly the Probax are very comfortable, though the longest drive I've done in a day was 500 miles - you may wish to do more. Worst problem in terms of comfort seems to be my g/f who struggles with being just a little too small for the standard passenger footbrace.

I didn't drive a 111S as coming from a CTR I quite fancied the second cam delivery anyway. I have been out for a drive with a pal who has a 111S and on the road there's precious little in it - though the R is a fraction quicker. I find for general driving the power/weight is just right and it's very rare I find anything is quicker in a straight line or anywhere else. The 111S has the advantage that it can be converted to Honda, the Toyota can be supercharged. Both options will create an absolute monster. I doubt you'd be unhappy with either car so test drive both and see what you think.

[arbr]

Another thing that would be quite interesting to know for me is how, if at all, tall people fit inside it? I'm 1.90m (around 6 feet 2 or something?) and I was wondering if it will be possible to drive the Elise properly without chopping a few inches off of my feet and head?

Edited by arbr on Monday 29th November 21:05

[simpo555]

arbr said:

We have a similar system over here, I think it is accessible to anyone who would like to buy a car, foreign or not. Isn't possible it for me to get hold of the accident history based on chassis number or something?

I think i know which trader you mean, I will also refrain from naming the company. One thing of course not to be overlooked for UK-cars is the right hand drive 'problem'. The Elise is a small car, so practical issues like getting into a garage or a MacDrive are not too bad. Driving a RHD on the continent does seem to be a bit of strange thing for me. I can get used to stick on the left, but sitting on the right side might result in strange situations.

This only gives me one option: get an LHD. As a result this will limit my search by about 80% and getting a nice example with low mileage in the colour and spec i'd like will be near impossible. Almost all LHD cars seem to be regular Elises or and Elise S. The Elise R that i still see as my preferred car will be hard to find in LHD...

Edited by arbr on Sunday 28th November 22:40

Driving position may take up to a month to get used to if youve always driven LHD. When I moved to France I bought a LHD and initially this was very strange. In the beginning actually found it easier to drive my RHD car in France but after a month it was natural either way. Like yourself I looked for an R in LHD but here in France they start at 32000 Euros. Having just bought an R in the Uk, albeit it RHD, it came in at 21500 euros. But Im used to driving RHD-LHD now (14 years over here) With so much acceleration available I dont envisage a problem, its just anticipation.

[duncs]

arbr said:

Another thing that would be quite interesting to know for me is how, if at all, tall people fit inside it? I'm 1.90m (around 6 feet 2 or something?) and I was wondering if it will be possible to drive the Elise properly without chopping a few inches off of my feet and head?

Edited by arbr on Monday 29th November 21:05

Your feet and head are safe! I'm 6'3" and fit in no problem, although I am quite slim so this may help. To be honest the car fits me like a glove, once inside I am really comfortable with everything in just the right position. People often ask "how do you fit in that?" but because there are only two seats there is ample room. Getting in and out without looking a complete idiot takes a bit of practice though

[arbr]

Yes, this is something I noticed when watching Clarkson getting in and out of these machines, each time more stupendous and silly. He is a tall guy as well, so apparently you can drive it. I reckon I'm rather slim as well, so I should be fine

The whole LHD/RHD is really getting annoying. A LHD 2006 Elise R is... well almost impossible in Holland. There is one for sale now, which really looks great. Good mileage, the colour is great, looks like a fair car. It was already imported from Germany, but that's no problem. The problem? Look at the silly price tag:

http://www.autotrack.nl/tweedehands/lotus/elise/70...

Actually, now I've had a closer look... It's not even German, it's a US import and it's not a 2006 model, it's a 111R... So that leaves me with no LHD option at all. Great (!). I guess my best option would be to take the car across the channel, book a few hotels and drive around the UK to check some of them out and just deal with the RHD...

Edited by arbr on Monday 29th November 22:29

[duncs]

Have you looked at seloc.org.uk yet? If not then do so - there are quite a few members on there who have converted RH drive cars to LH drive. I'm sure they would be able to give you some advice on costs etc if you can't cope with RH drive. With the pound weak compared to the Euro many continental buyers are snapping up Elises and converting them.

Just one last thought. If you want the elise experience have you considered an Opel Speedster Turbo (AKA Vauxhall VX220 turbo)? Almost the same chassis, much faster, cheaper, antilock brakes, more LHD choice? Again, discussed many times on seloc or visit VX220.org.uk for a look!

[Mr E]

Also, bear in mind that the 111S is the 'luxury' option. There is a plain 111 with the same engine and box, but no carpets and such.

I've never seen one, and know of nobody who owns one, so I suspect they didn't sell many.

[arbr]

Duncs: yes, i've been looking over there as well. Some interesting stuff. An LHD conversion might be nice, but the cost will probably be too high to get something back for it. I'll manage with RHD in the end, it's just a matter of resale value I'm afraid of..

The Speedster turbo is a great alternative, it is a Lotus with a GM engine in. In fact it's the same engine that i have in one of my cars right now (Saab 93 Aero). In my Saab it develops around 240bhp because it's tuned (or rather: remapped). To be honest, it's a nice engine, but it really lacks a bit of emotion. It's just heaps and heaps of low-end torque and high power output at high revs, but the sound is soso and the feeling of the engine is a bit tame. It's almost an 'extended diesel', it just delivers power in a huge long punch with an extra kick at around 3500 rpm when the turbo really starts doing it's business. Also, I know for a fact that 240bhp needs 98 or even 100 octane to really work smoothly. With regular 95 there is huge amounts of knock when the turbo pressure is on which almost makes it undriveable as a day-to-day car. The ECU is aggressively trying to correct fuel/air mix and this of course results in terrible performance.

The Toyota engine really gives an extra dimension with the high revs and second cam that the GM block simply won't have. Of course I know only one of the engines really well, the Toyota engine just from word of mouth and youtube

Also, the Speedster is still a rather rare car at around the same cost as an Elise 111R and just slightly cheaper than a 2006/7 Elise R.

[duncs]

arbr said:

To be honest, it's a nice engine, but it really lacks a bit of emotion. It's just heaps and heaps of low-end torque and high power output at high revs

The Toyota engine really gives an extra dimension with the high revs and second cam that the GM block simply won't have. Of course I know only one of the engines really well, the Toyota engine just from word of mouth and youtube

Also, the Speedster is still a rather rare car at around the same cost as an Elise 111R and just slightly cheaper than a 2006/7 Elise R.

Yes, I know what you mean about the power delivery of the turbo engine - it's one of the reasons I moved from a VX220 turbo to the elise, and I was scared of loosing my licence

Like I said, the 111R is two cars in one - fun/quick up to 6K then a manic screamer above For me, the engine really suits the car, it's what a sports car should be without being too silly. Be warned though, the standard exhaust is very quiet/unintereting, you need an induction kit or decent exhaust to get a good sound. (The stage 2 exhaust is just LOUD).

If you get a RHD car it will be VERY funny watching you get in and out for the first few weeks - when I get into the passenger side of my elise (very rare!) I find it ridiculously difficult becaue I'm not used to the movement.

I'm surprised the speedster is so expensive for you, in the UK you can get a good one for less than 14k GBP.

Edited by duncs on Tuesday 30th November 08:02

[arbr]

Yeah, it's really strange, it seems it's mainly the regular 147hp Speedster that we have available here. By the way: I checked which engine is in a Speedster Turbo and it's not exactly the same GM unit as in the 93 Aero, it's a cast iron block whereas the Saab version is aluminum and a bit more complicated with extra reinforcements. The bore and stroke is exactly the same and the rest of the engine layout seems almost identical, so I reckon it will have a similar delivery of torque and power.

What I find particularly interesting, although it's a bit OT, is that this Ecotec block has been developed by Opel, Saab and guess what... Lotus Engineering! That makes it even more peculiar why Lotus choose to develop the original Elise S2 project (which the speedster is in a way) with the GM block and their own Lotus branded Elise S2 with a Toyota block that they seemingly had nothing to do with...

Concerning RHD to LHD conversion: the cost is around 5000 euro when it is done professionally and will take around 3 weeks. 5000 euro is about the amount that one can save by importing a young Elise R or slightly older 111R from the UK into Holland... So not really that interesting.

[LivinLaVidaLotus]

arbr said:

I did some more work going through the forum and have found some things, which may or may not be correct:

- The 111S is lighter than the 111R because it lacks servo assisted brakes, airbags and some other stuff

Airbags were never fitted to the 111R - They were introduced on the MY09 (from memory) R, but never on the 111R.

AFAIK MY06 pedal box was sorted because of the switch to the Drive By Wire throttle (which some don't like). MY06 was also the change from Potenza's to Advans as well I think, due to the Federal Elise being launched.

Edited by LivinLaVidaLotus on Tuesday 30th November 11:54

[otolith]

The pedal box on the early 111R is miles better once it has been adjusted properly. Still far from perfect, but much better.

[The Bandit]

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

arbr said:

I did some more work going through the forum and have found some things, which may or may not be correct:

- The 111S is lighter than the 111R because it lacks servo assisted brakes, airbags and some other stuff

Airbags were never fitted to the 111R - They were introduced on the MY09 (from memory) R, but never on the 111R.

Edited by LivinLaVidaLotus on Tuesday 30th November 11:54

Not quite as simple as that in true Lotus fashion, you could get airbags on MY06> cars with Super Touring pack.
They became standard on MY08 cars though

[peter450]

I would try the S/C if you your used to/like torquey cars, the main + point of the S/C is it has a lot more torque throughout the rev range

You might prefer it to the R and then again might not, but it certainly does not hurt to have a go