Elise 111S or 111r?

[arbr]

The S/C really isn't an option for me as finding a well priced 111R or new R is already a huge task on the continent. In fact: finding one at all is extremely hard. I have found 2 S/C's for sale in Holland, Belgium and Germany... At ridiculous prices of course.

I really think the 111R or new R will be my choice. I have based my choice on:
- The R has more power and more important a 6th gear to reach higher topspeeds (will drive the car in Germany, so 212km/h just won't cut it)
- The R has abs
- The R has a high-revving engine (i love high rpm!)
- The R seems to have a little better suspension on bumps

Now some added criteria for my perfect R. If possible 2006 or younger (so not the 111R but the R):
- Better seats
- Fly-by-wire/redesigned pedal box
- LED taillights

Options:
- Touring pack (will use the car for longer trips, not as daily driver)
- Hardtop (will use it in winter weekends)
- A stage 2 / Larini / whatever brand exhaust (not a hard criterium)
- LHD (would be great, but guess it will be almost impossible with all the other criteria)

Anything missing?

I think that with the stuff above I will have to buy a RHD car, probably import from the UK, or maybe get lucky in Germany.

[Gooby]

arbr said:

I really think the 111R or new R will be my choice. I have based my choice on:
- The R has more power and more important a 6th gear to reach higher topspeeds (will drive the car in Germany, so 212km/h just won't cut it)
- The R has abs
- The R has a high-revving engine (i love high rpm!)
- The R seems to have a little better suspension on bumps

arbr said:

Now some added criteria for my perfect R. If possible 2006 or younger (so not the 111R but the R):
- Better seats
- Fly-by-wire/redesigned pedal box
- LED taillights

The standard seats are superb, with or without probax BUT the seats to have a re the sports seats with better shoulder restraint and better provision for harnesses. If you can find the sprots seats and harnesses- that would be a major selling point.

Dont get hung up on the pedal box, some time spent adjusting the pre-2006 pedal box it time well spent. I have used a car with fly-by-wire and it kept on dropping the car into "get you home mode" usually when I was in the outside lane of the motorway.

I love my LED rear lights but who cares? You wont see it!

arbr said:

Options:
- Touring pack (will use the car for longer trips, not as daily driver)
- Hardtop (will use it in winter weekends)
- A stage 2 / Larini / whatever brand exhaust (not a hard criterium)
- LHD (would be great, but guess it will be almost impossible with all the other criteria)

You will have to work hard to find a car without a touring pack - friends who have specifically chosen a car without a touring pack have had thier car delivered with.

I love my hard top for the winter, makes the car feel snug and looks great

Avoid a stage 2 'zorst, they are so damn hefty and the build quality is very poor, mine lasted 14 months, larini is good but better suited to the K series engines, the zorst to go for is the 2bular. Exqusite sound and performance.

arbr said:

Anything missing?

I think that with the stuff above I will have to buy a RHD car, probably import from the UK, or maybe get lucky in Germany.

Many UK dealers will exprort to europe and some will get you a LHD car (from new), I know my local dealer will.

[arbr]

Thanks. So the seats, what's the exact story here? Can you maybe get a bit more in detail about the whole Probax stuff and the seats that were fitted to a <2006 and >2006 car?

The LED lights are just to make the car easier to sell, it of course does nothing for the driver in any way.

Fly-by-wire is something to avoid if i get you right? I have driven many cars with fly-by-wire and, when applied properly, it's great. Some cars are terrible with FBW because the mapping is just so poor. Sometimes you have to floor them to get any power, sometimes just the lightest touch launches you. Same car, just the ecu deciding you are in a 'sporty' mood or a 'comfort' mood. Very annoying. I guess Lotus has sorted this right?

[kambites]

IMHO a DBW throttle is almost always inferior to a cable. Early DBW Elises were rubbish, laggy things. I think they improved it in later cars, but I'd still rather have a cable.

[Gooby]

arbr said:

Thanks. So the seats, what's the exact story here? Can you maybe get a bit more in detail about the whole Probax stuff and the seats that were fitted to a <2006 and >2006 car?

The LED lights are just to make the car easier to sell, it of course does nothing for the driver in any way.

Fly-by-wire is something to avoid if i get you right? I have driven many cars with fly-by-wire and, when applied properly, it's great. Some cars are terrible with FBW because the mapping is just so poor. Sometimes you have to floor them to get any power, sometimes just the lightest touch launches you. Same car, just the ecu deciding you are in a 'sporty' mood or a 'comfort' mood. Very annoying. I guess Lotus has sorted this right?

I actually dont have a problem with the DBW, I am a bit "old school" and it is hard to be more reliable and have better feel than a cable between your foot and an engine. I was let down by a loan Elise on numerous occasions due to the DBW and because of that I am cautious, I have heard of other people having the same problem but it is no way a common fault. To be honest you would have to be very sensative to feel a DBW car from normal.

Seats - Before circa 2006 you had "normal" seats, then after some colorbration with some ergonomic seat manufacturer they brought out the probax seats which are ment to be better for your back and more comfortable. I found it to be quite the opposite but seats are such a personal thing there is no pleasing everyone. All the seat options are non adjustable. They go forwards and back and they have a pump up lumbar support (which deflates after about 2 hours!) I find them very comfortable and have no problems over long distance. Lotus offeres sports/ racing seats which are superb, they hold you very well, very comfortable and have harness provision. If I was speccing a new 'liz, it is the one change I would make.

I have the LED rears on my 2004 car, they are there because some cretin on a motorbike wrote off the rear clam with his head. He was stupid before the accident and no brighter after.... They are very pretty but I wouldnt loose any sleep on them.

The lotus fraternity is an odd thing, we are very concerned with driver feel and weight. The community was up in arms when DBW was implemented as the concensus was that it would ruin driver feel. The same uproar happend with traction control, streo/ radios, air conditioning and airbags etc etc. Life has gone on for owners and we are still an odd bunch.

For my money, find yourself a 2006 sports racer (red ones are beautiful) and smile with every second you spend in the car. When you have a little money to spend on her, get the racing seats and harnesses and a 2bular zorst. Importantly learn to drive. I dont know if you are a skilled racing driver, probably not (no offence!) the way to get the best from your "liz is to drive it and learn to drive it better. It is what seperates the men from the boys, not the LED's or the max power radio, or the seats.

Edited by Gooby on Wednesday 1st December 12:07

[arbr]

Sure thing, thanks for the extensive post. Don't get me wrong: I am primarily buying the car for it's driving specs, not for it's bling or toys. But that said, I will be using the Elise for all non-work drives, so I really would like some extra's as I explained before. If i wanted a hardcore circuit car there are options available that are more interesting.

Also thanks for the seat info, cleared that up for me.

I'm not a Grand Prix driver, far from it, but I do have a few years of karting experience, had a tuned 944 turbo (300hp rwd no t/c with a huge turbo lag + kick at 3000rpm) and also did some short courses in basic car control. I can hold a small powerslide, know how to avoid oversteer (main mistake on the road with RWD) and know how to brake/steer in tricky conditions. That's about it. No expert and no novice, i reckon the Elise will be a nice step forward. I never take any silly risks with my cars that can put myself or others in danger.

My idea about the Elise will mainly be enjoying it's superb handling and acceleration out of corners on B-roads. Also I will be using it on the Autobahn at full speed, but I don't consider this fun, it's mainly to get there quicker

[Gooby]

arbr said:

Sure thing, thanks for the extensive post. Don't get me wrong: I am primarily buying the car for it's driving specs, not for it's bling or toys. But that said, I will be using the Elise for all non-work drives, so I really would like some extra's as I explained before. If i wanted a hardcore circuit car there are options available that are more interesting.

Also thanks for the seat info, cleared that up for me.

I'm not a Grand Prix driver, far from it, but I do have a few years of karting experience, had a tuned 944 turbo (300hp rwd no t/c with a huge turbo lag + kick at 3000rpm) and also did some short courses in basic car control. I can hold a small powerslide, know how to avoid oversteer (main mistake on the road with RWD) and know how to brake/steer in tricky conditions. That's about it. No expert and no novice, i reckon the Elise will be a nice step forward. I never take any silly risks with my cars that can put myself or others in danger.

My idea about the Elise will mainly be enjoying it's superb handling and acceleration out of corners on B-roads. Also I will be using it on the Autobahn at full speed, but I don't consider this fun, it's mainly to get there quicker

Sounds like a Liz will be a great car for you.
People complain about the 'liz on motorways. I dont subscribe to this point of view. It is a good Motorway car, it is just that it is an incredible b-road car and sitting on a motorway seems a waste! What will become evident with a "liz is there is rarely an A-B drive especially when you can go via point "Z"!

Good luck.

[otolith]

Gooby said:

People complain about the 'liz on motorways. I dont subscribe to this point of view. It is a good Motorway car, it is just that it is an incredible b-road car and sitting on a motorway seems a waste!

Not sure I would agree with that, I would say that the noise alone disqualifies it as a "good" motorway car. Tolerable motorway car I could go with.

[Mr E]

otolith said:

Not sure I would agree with that, I would say that the noise alone disqualifies it as a "good" motorway car. Tolerable motorway car I could go with.

With a Larini clubsport and sport cat it drops below tolerable for more than an hour...

[kambites]

I think driving an Elise "flat out" on the autobahn would drive you mad. It would be very loud at 150mph.

[simpo555]

I tested an Elise S with stage 2 exhaust. It gave me a huge buzz-in the beginning. After a while however it seemed to 'intrude' and I found it a little tiring. Only drove it for 20 mins. My recent purchase doesnt seem to be modified. The buzz, I get from the driving, and I find it comfortable on my ears. I also have a young son to consider. As youve stated, go for touring + ac + hard top. The rest I dont know. However, Im just a beginner so listen to everyone and decide what you want. It remains a personal choice. Im wonderfully happy with my level of equipment although perhaps a change of chip so that the double cam comes in a little earlier!!!

[duncs]

Gooby said:

For my money, find yourself a 2006 sports racer (red ones are beautiful)

Woohoooo That's what I've got and I love it!


Seats - I find probax a little better than the earlier ones but not that much difference - I believe they are fitted with that fancy memory foam stuff. You can tell if you have probax because they don't have the lumbar pump fitted.

DBW - this really is no big deal. If anything I have found the throttle to be a bit more responsive (maybe kidding myself?) and the car doesn't have the slight hesitancy that some 111Rs have at very low revs. I think DBW is a positive thing - as long as it doesn't go wrong!




Sorry about the poor quality - old phone camera!

Edited by duncs on Wednesday 1st December 22:38

[arbr]

The whole autobahn stuff should is rather relative: these days you barely get to cruise above 200kph, it's mainly that the cruise at 200kph should be easily reached and kept. Also from 200 you might sometimes wanna go up to 230/240, but there is almost no space for that these days. Normally you would cruise around 180 and do short stints of 200/220. At the moment I have a Saab 93 Aero with BSR-2 pack as one of my cars which does all this perfectly. It has heaps and heaps of low end torque combined with a lot of top end power. Yet it is of course is a very comfortable car with lots of sound padding etc. At 250kmh it's still very easy to talk to each other, of course this will not be the case in the Elise. The main point here is that the car should be able to go along with the traffic and 6th gear is a must if you ask me...

Still main objective is finding one and using it for acceleration, cornering, fun on B roads, all that stuff that you already actually do 95% of the time. Going fast in a straight line is just as boring as sitting in a traffic jam if you ask me.

The posts so far seem to indicate that 2006+ car clearly isn't a must. The seats aren't that different, the pedal box is ok on both, they both have airbags... One would have to go into meaningless points like LED lights to really find a difference it appears.

So is a loud exhaust something that will add to the fun of driving or is it just unpractical? I've read and seen/heard good things about the Larini, Janspeed and 2Bular, but should i buy a car that has one fitted to it already, or should I leave these ones alone and buy as-stock-as-possible?

[duncs]

arbr said:

they both have airbags...

No they don't - airbags came along around 2008/9

arbr said:

So is a loud exhaust something that will add to the fun of driving or is it just unpractical? I've read and seen/heard good things about the Larini, Janspeed and 2Bular, but should i buy a car that has one fitted to it already, or should I leave these ones alone and buy as-stock-as-possible?

I wouldn't bother with a loud exhaust - try an induction kit instead?

[Gooby]

There are loud exhausts and deafening exhausts.
I am unusual that my 'liz is my daily car and sometimes that means commuting hundreds of miles a day for months at a time. I have done over 100k miles and I have a configuration that is not considered to be good for the driving that I do. I have a loud 2bular 'zorst, suspension from a 240r and a very agressive geo that is quite unstable in a straight line.

I love it - motorway or b-road, it is driving bliss. Only problems is that you cant use the phone on any type of hands free kit.... you cant even hear it ring! You are always nervous about where to park.

You will find that after about 125-130mph the front end gets a bit "light". It helps with decent suspension set up, lowering the car.

Edited by Gooby on Wednesday 1st December 23:34

[The Bandit]

duncs said:

arbr said:

they both have airbags...

No they don't - airbags came along around 2008/9

arbr said:

So is a loud exhaust something that will add to the fun of driving or is it just unpractical? I've read and seen/heard good things about the Larini, Janspeed and 2Bular, but should i buy a car that has one fitted to it already, or should I leave these ones alone and buy as-stock-as-possible?

I wouldn't bother with a loud exhaust - try an induction kit instead?

From the previous page...

The Bandit said:

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

arbr said:

I did some more work going through the forum and have found some things, which may or may not be correct:

- The 111S is lighter than the 111R because it lacks servo assisted brakes, airbags and some other stuff

Airbags were never fitted to the 111R - They were introduced on the MY09 (from memory) R, but never on the 111R.

Edited by LivinLaVidaLotus on Tuesday 30th November 11:54

Not quite as simple as that in true Lotus fashion, you could get airbags on MY06> cars with Super Touring pack.
They became standard on MY08 cars though

And sports exhaust is essential on a Toyota engined car, the standard one is AWFUL.
Larini Sport or a 2bular all day long.

[duncs]

Airbags on super touring >06 - I know, I know, but are there really that many with that option? It was very pricey IIRC.

The std Yota exhaust is puny, but I drove some (when looking to buy) that were just plain loud, not really sporty, just bloody annoying. I prefer the relative stealth of a stage 1

All personal choice though

[arbr]

Oops, where i said 'they both have airbags', of course i meant they both have ABS. Excuse me. Airbag was already clear for me.

All this has been very insightful so far, real great info. Got me from a total noob into someone who knows what to look for on car classifieds sites. Well a bit, at least

Too bad it's snowing like hell here, will have to postpone a testdrive for a few days. It should be a nice time to buy them though..

[peter450]

You also have the option of getting the R and having the lotus S/C kit fitted, it's a offical lotus upgrade and cost's £3500.00 i think, so if you want more in future, getting a R will give you that option

[RobM77]

I made this decision five years ago when I bought my Elise and I went for the S2 111S. Compared against an '04 111R (see below), I preferred the way the 111S drove, specifically the brakes (the 111R pedal has that worrying dead zone at the top, and heel and toe is really difficult) and the feeling of lightness to the car (it is actually lighter due to the k series engine being much lighter than the Toyota one). The Toyota car felt more refined and had ABS, both of which I'd prefer, so it wasn't a decision made very quickly - I gave it some serious thought and drove several cars. That's the '04 111R; the post '06 111R is a different matter though, because it had a lower (DBW) throttle pedal to suit the brake pedal action, plus a firmed up brake pedal. I still actually prefer the way the 111S drives to the current Elise range, but it's a very personal thing. I would have thought most people would prefer the Toyota engined R to be honest, but it is very personal, so drive both