TVR not supplying engine parts.
Discussion
Has anybody heard anything about TVR not supplying speed six parts to engine builders. I have been informed today that anyone outside the main dealers are no longer recieving engine parts.
I've tried calling on numerous occasions today but so far have had no reply.
This is against EU Regulations and can lead to court action, and after all that has happened I can't beleive they have resorted to this.
Any thoughts?
I've tried calling on numerous occasions today but so far have had no reply.
This is against EU Regulations and can lead to court action, and after all that has happened I can't beleive they have resorted to this.
Any thoughts?
I don't think this is a new issue, when my V8 cerb needed a full rebuild a couple of years ago, the factory said they would not supply anyone with the engine parts. I had a "discussion" with Ben S & reffered him to the EU directive, & suggested that it may actually be against the law not to supply me with the required parts.
I was then told that TVR would supply my engine builder with the required bits to get me back on the road, but sadly everything needed for the rebuild may be out of stock for a very long time to come.........
I was then told that TVR would supply my engine builder with the required bits to get me back on the road, but sadly everything needed for the rebuild may be out of stock for a very long time to come.........
Podie said:
Isn't the factory on shutdown..?
Factory is closing for 2 weeks holiday so that will hold up the parts.
However, the dealer network can now fix the sp6 so I guess there is no need to supply the independant repair centers. I do not belive that you can force someone to sell you their product if they do not want to.
I cannot belive your bad luck, but if SP6 tech are fixing these cars all the time they should be carrying stock?
tvr5000 said:
Has anybody heard anything about TVR not supplying speed six parts to engine builders. I have been informed today that anyone outside the main dealers are no longer recieving engine parts.
I've tried calling on numerous occasions today but so far have had no reply.
This is against EU Regulations and can lead to court action, and after all that has happened I can't beleive they have resorted to this.
Any thoughts?
Who informed you of this, because I know of at least one local independant that IS getting parts. Plus it is illegal for motor manufacturers to behave like this.
B
Its a bit of a farce isn't it chaps that a glorified kit car builder, who has used every other manufacturers parts under the sun, Rover, ford, triumph etc etc takes such a snobbish view.
It was the reason I abandoned a speed six engined project.
don't get me wrong. I love the cars and own a griff and vixen / griff replica i love what they stand for. but i don't like being held to ransom either!
This is the prime reason why i wouldn't buy a modern TVR. I will stick to the wedges, chims and griffs where I will always be able to purchase and maintain myself?
TVR's were always first and foremost an enthusiasts car. I fear over the next few years this will change. I can see 2 factions now. The enthusiasts and the cheap supercar buyers looking for an affordable porsche.
I think old Nik needs to remember that the enthusiasts have kept this brand afloat for longer than it would have been had it been just another mass market car
does nik understand what a car enthusiast is?
Neil.
It was the reason I abandoned a speed six engined project.
don't get me wrong. I love the cars and own a griff and vixen / griff replica i love what they stand for. but i don't like being held to ransom either!
This is the prime reason why i wouldn't buy a modern TVR. I will stick to the wedges, chims and griffs where I will always be able to purchase and maintain myself?
TVR's were always first and foremost an enthusiasts car. I fear over the next few years this will change. I can see 2 factions now. The enthusiasts and the cheap supercar buyers looking for an affordable porsche.
I think old Nik needs to remember that the enthusiasts have kept this brand afloat for longer than it would have been had it been just another mass market car
does nik understand what a car enthusiast is?
Neil.
To my knowledge, TVRCraft build their own bits to spec and have no reliance on the factory or associated companies. Probably give them a try???? Although I think they carry out work in their own premises and might not sell their components to other engine builders, trade secrets and all that.
I read somewhere that manufacturers are entitled to control who they provide support through, and if they provide that support through their dealer network or preferred independants list - there is nothing illegal, it just means you need to get in touch with their dealers/associated independants to source your bits, and even then they may not sell those bits because theres a certain degree of liability which comes with the sale of components and may not be willing to stretch their legal abilities to manage issues in that department - for those reasons they will most likely turn around and ask you to use their services or you buy the parts off them knowingly that they will not be held responsible for 3rd party work. TVR is small - not much profit in this business... so things are held closer to heart than say Ford or BMW.
I read somewhere that manufacturers are entitled to control who they provide support through, and if they provide that support through their dealer network or preferred independants list - there is nothing illegal, it just means you need to get in touch with their dealers/associated independants to source your bits, and even then they may not sell those bits because theres a certain degree of liability which comes with the sale of components and may not be willing to stretch their legal abilities to manage issues in that department - for those reasons they will most likely turn around and ask you to use their services or you buy the parts off them knowingly that they will not be held responsible for 3rd party work. TVR is small - not much profit in this business... so things are held closer to heart than say Ford or BMW.
SXS said:
TVRCraft ... might not sell their components to other engine builders, trade secrets and all that.
I guess they're entitled to choose who they sell to, but lets not kid ourselves: if they choose not to supply other engine builders then they're doing it to protect their own engine building business, not because they want to keep 'trade secrets' secret.
GreenV8S said:
TVRCraft ... might not sell their components to other engine builders, trade secrets and all that.
I guess they're entitled to choose who they sell to, but lets not kid ourselves: if they choose not to supply other engine builders then they're doing it to protect their own engine building business, not because they want to keep 'trade secrets' secret.
In due course anyone can rip open an engine and figure out whats going on with the right technical knowhow, so thats inevitable, but I doubt after all the design/research work with Al Mellings - components will just be handed out, maybe later down the road...
You try buying Ferrari Enzo engine bits, or even trying to get info on the engines internals! The only way, buy a damn Enzo (rip it apart and pay BIG money to get the right skilled engineers on board to figure it all out!) and when engine work is needed the engine will be sent away to get worked on, joe-bloggs down the road will NOT be able to get individual internal components - business and trade-secrets go hand in hand my Green.
Oh yes, I know for a fact that with Craft there are classified component designs which would be classed as trade-secrets, so will be treated as such for as long as possible, theres nothing wrong with that, their time and effort in design and research along with Mellings is not just going to be thrown onto the table for all to see openly, if someone is bothered enough to rip a pre-done engine - then fair enough, but even then, it would take a serious engineering background to break the mathematics/design down to barebones to reproduce the same designs (the designs have been modelled by MCD and researched thoroughly, the designs werent just drawn up on paper). Also make note that you couldnt just take a set of valves for instance, because these valves will be using a different port size, different stem design, different valve seats, different springs with different pressures for the new valves, material choices are different, coatings are different and all bits in contact are different in accordance - the whole job is a trade secret, you give one component out, you're just helping the process of reverse-engineering, would you? Exactly
If they were just copying the bits that are standard parts, then sure, yup its got nothing to do with trade-secrets, but in this case, all the bits are spec'd and designed according to the design changes which Mellings and Craft have come up with.
I know what you mean SXS, but don't entirely agree with you.
Bottom line is that TVR cannot really build in the case of the Sp6 a reliable engine. its a fabulous design (sort of), but as usual the development of the design is in the hands of the customers who incur costs whilst putting development mileage on the Sp6 engine. The failures then get worked upon at the factory and eventually bits are tweaked so that things stop breaking.
I could sympathise with this approach if i thought that TVR would then allow the purchase of replacement parts but they don't. they dont want to admit liability for design / manufacturing flaws and keep it close to their chest.
Don't kid yourself about spec'd parts either. this is a cost plus engineered bargain basement super car made out of polyeurethane resin glue and steel tube. As such to turn a profit bits have to be made on the cheap. this is the reason why it breaks down. The first round of finger followers were made by an engineering firm to a spec then case hardened somewhere else (probably a Chinese or Indian sweatshop) This is why they failed. unfortunately because it is only a low volume car lots are made comparatively speaking before the flaw is uncovered.
The engine itself is not particularly refined. the nylon chain guides and 6 miles of chain on the front demonstrate that. The engine management, injectors etc etc are off the shelf items (ford / vauxhall) alternator land Rover etc etc.
The main castings are low volume rough hewn alloy
As you say the other option is to strip one down then engineer solutions yourself. this is what Al seems to be doing in conjunction with another engine builder. i wonder why he is not doing it with the factory??
N.
>> Edited by heightswitch on Sunday 7th August 17:37
Bottom line is that TVR cannot really build in the case of the Sp6 a reliable engine. its a fabulous design (sort of), but as usual the development of the design is in the hands of the customers who incur costs whilst putting development mileage on the Sp6 engine. The failures then get worked upon at the factory and eventually bits are tweaked so that things stop breaking.
I could sympathise with this approach if i thought that TVR would then allow the purchase of replacement parts but they don't. they dont want to admit liability for design / manufacturing flaws and keep it close to their chest.
Don't kid yourself about spec'd parts either. this is a cost plus engineered bargain basement super car made out of polyeurethane resin glue and steel tube. As such to turn a profit bits have to be made on the cheap. this is the reason why it breaks down. The first round of finger followers were made by an engineering firm to a spec then case hardened somewhere else (probably a Chinese or Indian sweatshop) This is why they failed. unfortunately because it is only a low volume car lots are made comparatively speaking before the flaw is uncovered.
The engine itself is not particularly refined. the nylon chain guides and 6 miles of chain on the front demonstrate that. The engine management, injectors etc etc are off the shelf items (ford / vauxhall) alternator land Rover etc etc.
The main castings are low volume rough hewn alloy
As you say the other option is to strip one down then engineer solutions yourself. this is what Al seems to be doing in conjunction with another engine builder. i wonder why he is not doing it with the factory??
N.
>> Edited by heightswitch on Sunday 7th August 17:37
heightswitch said:
As you say the other option is to strip one down then engineer solutions yourself. this is what Al seems to be doing in conjunction with another engine builder. i wonder why he is not doing it with the factory??
A long story! It always boils down to hard cash.
Forgive me for sounding a little hard earlier on. I am well aware of the factories past and how the development of the engine has been through customer feedback/agony and development work has been growing on the top of that. But the reality is, the engine itself is now their single line of business in all their cars, and I can appreciate that they do not want to risk any king of exposure, whence keeping tabs on who they supply their bits to.
Think out of the box, it all makes sense, it might not be what we want to hear, but they have to protect their interests, and even after all the crap which people have gone through, as a manufacturer - we still have to respect that. Sooner or later shit will hit the fan - but do we really want it to? thats the big question.
In the meantime, I'll stick to my philosophy, just as Ferrari/Lamborghini/Aston Martin wont just throw components off the back of a mail-order system - so too do TVR have the right not to.
Think of it another way. A sp6 powered car developing close to 400hp that requires a couple of £8k rebuilds is still far cheaper than a lambo or ferrari.
I have said it before and will say it again. TVR are a prolitariat supercar manufacturer in the main bought by die hard car enthusiasts or young hairdresser types not really mechanically minded who aspire to greatness but aint quite there and cannot afford the 911. These are the ones who complain when the engine goes pop. The enthusiasts are the ones who jump to the defence of TVR.
I think that before long the enthusiasts will abandon the factory and the hairdresser types will become the norm. then the manufacturer will suffer.
This has always been the case with TVR. the difference is that now it is owned by someone who doesn't understand what a car enthusiast is.
Lets face it. most of us buy em because they are crude and hark back to a time when cars were just that and not playstations on wheels. Today though they are fundamentally not worth what they are marketed at, compare it with the quality of an audi or BMW or Porsche at the same price! Back in TVR's heyday they were alternatives to the norm built a bit cheaper in kit form.
The hairdresser types are the ones who have convinced themselves that they are worth the £50 odd K. they have paid. These are the same customers who will abandon the brand when a more reliable alternative comes along??
N.
I have said it before and will say it again. TVR are a prolitariat supercar manufacturer in the main bought by die hard car enthusiasts or young hairdresser types not really mechanically minded who aspire to greatness but aint quite there and cannot afford the 911. These are the ones who complain when the engine goes pop. The enthusiasts are the ones who jump to the defence of TVR.
I think that before long the enthusiasts will abandon the factory and the hairdresser types will become the norm. then the manufacturer will suffer.
This has always been the case with TVR. the difference is that now it is owned by someone who doesn't understand what a car enthusiast is.
Lets face it. most of us buy em because they are crude and hark back to a time when cars were just that and not playstations on wheels. Today though they are fundamentally not worth what they are marketed at, compare it with the quality of an audi or BMW or Porsche at the same price! Back in TVR's heyday they were alternatives to the norm built a bit cheaper in kit form.
The hairdresser types are the ones who have convinced themselves that they are worth the £50 odd K. they have paid. These are the same customers who will abandon the brand when a more reliable alternative comes along??
N.
heightswitch said:
I have said it before and will say it again. TVR are a prolitariat supercar manufacturer in the main bought by die hard car enthusiasts or young hairdresser types not really mechanically minded who aspire to greatness but aint quite there and cannot afford the 911.
And you can say it again, and again...... B*ll*x! aspire to a 911 FFS
I am luckily fortunate enough, that I can afford a 911 but I don't like Porches any of them! FACT!
Please don't paint everybody that drives a TVR as someone who aspires to better things.
I drive a Tuscan because I enjoy the thrill, as do many other on this website.
If it wasn’t for the fact that you drive TVR’s, I’d think you were a troll!
Rant over!
Why not just walk in to a main dealer , say gatwick TVR and order whatever is needed from their parts dept ?
I don't understand where the major expense comes from , its just a straight six that needs a head rebuild with replacement parts .Thats not rocket science .
If your worried about metal particles in the oil , flush it through a couple of times with thin oil.
I don't understand where the major expense comes from , its just a straight six that needs a head rebuild with replacement parts .Thats not rocket science .
If your worried about metal particles in the oil , flush it through a couple of times with thin oil.
heightswitch said:
TVR are a prolitariat supercar manufacturer in the main bought by die hard car enthusiasts or young hairdresser types not really mechanically minded who aspire to greatness but aint quite there and cannot afford the 911. These are the ones who complain when the engine goes pop. The enthusiasts are the ones who jump to the defence of TVR.
Tell me what makes you a better enthusiast than anyone else?
So even if our beloved manufacturer was hiding their behinds when they shoved poor components down their customers throats, we shouldnt raise an eyebrow?
What are you on about? Cant afford 911????
Do you know how many TVR owners on these forums have a yearly income of at least 50k? I personally know a few over the 200k mark, yet they still drive a TVR!
Yes there are 'some' who buy a TVR to get the image cheaply because they couldnt afford a more esteemed super ie. 911, Aston Martin etc. But these owners are far and between, when I come across one, I say it. But to date I havent come against a wannabe footballer on here.
TVR's are bought for either image, the status, raw - hardcore drivers - and for many of us, its the thrill of knowing that between me and the car there is no other nanny-toy in the way - the driver/car relationship is very intimate with a TVR.
Those hairdressers are too busy choosing between boxters and Z3's to even bring a TVR into the equation.
The blind ones come into TVR ownership and sellup, just about escaping financial penalisation!
The enthusiasts are those who are 2nd/3rd/4th+ tvr owners, or those who kept their car running through hell and worse.
Then there are those enthusiasts like steve (shpub), craig (cerber450), Jellison, green v8s and not forgetting myself - we go further and transform our babies into something very unearthly... so are we super-enthusiasts?
Man everyones got a different perception of whats what, if you sit back and look at every owner and try and draw up a pschological profile of every TVR owner - you will very quickly realise that 90% of the owners are not your average 'hairdresser' type. And those who complain or raise their voice when something is wrong, are 'realists!', and should not be shot down for voicing their concerns or be mocked by being pushed into the 'hairdresser' clans.
SXS said:
Man everyones got a different perception of whats what, if you sit back and look at every owner and try and draw up a pschological profile of every TVR owner - you will very quickly realise that 90% of the owners are not your average 'hairdresser' type. And those who complain or raise their voice when something is wrong, are 'realists!', and should not be shot down for voicing their concerns or be mocked by being pushed into the 'hairdresser' clans.
Couldnt have said it better myself...!
I do not know of a single TVR owner who is a 'hairdresser type', furthermore from my experience a 911 is about the most opposite type of sportcar than the Tuscan, T350 or Sagaris that can exist, and would be not a popular car that a TVR owner would want.
Enthusiasts are still customers. They expect a minimum standard from a manufacturer, and hope to get better.
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