The Speed 6's are still going pop!
Discussion
Appologies for cross posting this but I felt it was relevant.
On my factory tour in April I asked this question. Normally they don't show people round the engine workshop anymore, probably due to the sensitivity, but we pushed a little and they took us inside.
The guys working there were engine builders as opposed to mechanics. they didn't no too many details of the spec of the engine, they just assemble it. For example we asked them questions like bore, stroke, weight of flywheel, throttle bodies, and they didn't know. they did weight the flywheel for us and it was only 5Kgs though. They probably wouldn't be aware if the grade of a component had changed unless it looked totally different.
We asked them whether the design of the engine had evolved in any way, and they showed us a new housing for where the oil pump bolts on to the block. The previous housing had a 90 degree bend, whereas the new version was straight through for improved oil flow. They were just starting to fit these in April.
So from this we can ascertain that at least 1 thing has changed. And that being the case it's quite possible that more have change because having spoken to them, I doubt the guys would notice unless the component looked obviously different.
We did get to see the blocks, cranks, pistons, cams, heads, valves etc. My own impression of the engine (and I have rebuilt my own in the past) are that it has been designed as a very strong unit. The block is heavily braced for extra rigidity. It's design is more akin to a motorcycle engine than a car. Please take into account that this was a 20 min visit so I'm only giving you my impressions. But going by what I saw I would have to say that the intention did seem to be of a very strong hi-tech race bred engine. The components were of good quality (you can tell BTW). My guess is that these failures have been related to one or two components in particular that have proven to be substandard or of poor quality, perhaps coupled with a minor design flaw, such as the main oil feed.
The fact that something has changed though would indicate that they are working on the problem. They wouldn't change the design on the housing just for fun if something else was badly wrong. Would they?
On my factory tour in April I asked this question. Normally they don't show people round the engine workshop anymore, probably due to the sensitivity, but we pushed a little and they took us inside.
The guys working there were engine builders as opposed to mechanics. they didn't no too many details of the spec of the engine, they just assemble it. For example we asked them questions like bore, stroke, weight of flywheel, throttle bodies, and they didn't know. they did weight the flywheel for us and it was only 5Kgs though. They probably wouldn't be aware if the grade of a component had changed unless it looked totally different.
We asked them whether the design of the engine had evolved in any way, and they showed us a new housing for where the oil pump bolts on to the block. The previous housing had a 90 degree bend, whereas the new version was straight through for improved oil flow. They were just starting to fit these in April.
So from this we can ascertain that at least 1 thing has changed. And that being the case it's quite possible that more have change because having spoken to them, I doubt the guys would notice unless the component looked obviously different.
We did get to see the blocks, cranks, pistons, cams, heads, valves etc. My own impression of the engine (and I have rebuilt my own in the past) are that it has been designed as a very strong unit. The block is heavily braced for extra rigidity. It's design is more akin to a motorcycle engine than a car. Please take into account that this was a 20 min visit so I'm only giving you my impressions. But going by what I saw I would have to say that the intention did seem to be of a very strong hi-tech race bred engine. The components were of good quality (you can tell BTW). My guess is that these failures have been related to one or two components in particular that have proven to be substandard or of poor quality, perhaps coupled with a minor design flaw, such as the main oil feed.
The fact that something has changed though would indicate that they are working on the problem. They wouldn't change the design on the housing just for fun if something else was badly wrong. Would they?
Rather surprised that the engine builders seem to be doing no more than bolting bits together, I'd have expected them to take a keen interest in the spec and recognise subtle differences in the components. Not just noticing that the oil pump has turned round by 90 degrees! Maybe this is part of the reason why problems allegedly caused by faulty components keep recurring?
These guys were just the assemblers, they said their supervisor could answer our questions but he was elsewhere at the time.
But yes it did surprise us as well!
My take on this is that TVR have probably identified and fixed the issues. My guess is that the TVR Craft version is even more bombproof. 90 degree bends are very bad for flow BTW!
The 2005 cars that have gone pop have probably done so at very low mileage, which would indicate an assembly fault than a design flaw or component failure. Going at low miles is less onerous than going pop at 6000 miles, because it indicates a significant malfunction.
I'm past 6000 miles now and the car is going great. It feels like it's just about broken in.
>> Edited by Big Al. on Monday 8th August 15:44
But yes it did surprise us as well!
My take on this is that TVR have probably identified and fixed the issues. My guess is that the TVR Craft version is even more bombproof. 90 degree bends are very bad for flow BTW!
The 2005 cars that have gone pop have probably done so at very low mileage, which would indicate an assembly fault than a design flaw or component failure. Going at low miles is less onerous than going pop at 6000 miles, because it indicates a significant malfunction.
I'm past 6000 miles now and the car is going great. It feels like it's just about broken in.
>> Edited by Big Al. on Monday 8th August 15:44
Thanks for the info Flash!
It is exactly this kind of thing that should be in this forum. It is also surprising that they had only just corrected the oil distribution problem in April. It makes me wonder what the 'engine mods' were which were performed on early Tuscans. I thought/assumed that it was this problem which was sorted. It also may be the fact that perhaps people who are needing two engine rebuilds are for separate problems as oppose to the same fault occuring?
It is interesting to find out that after the delay with the Sagaris and Tuscan II due to fixing such problems, the oil fix was only implemented this April. I would be a bit annoyed if my car was from March or earlier where cars were being produced before the modification rolled out.
I think the most useful thing TVR could do to make clear the Speed 6 scenario is to list the modifications which have been made and the dates they were implemented, perhaps from which car number for even more clarity. That way people would be able to know what exactly their car is, or a potential purchase and use TVR or TVR Craft to modify as needed.
It is exactly this kind of thing that should be in this forum. It is also surprising that they had only just corrected the oil distribution problem in April. It makes me wonder what the 'engine mods' were which were performed on early Tuscans. I thought/assumed that it was this problem which was sorted. It also may be the fact that perhaps people who are needing two engine rebuilds are for separate problems as oppose to the same fault occuring?
It is interesting to find out that after the delay with the Sagaris and Tuscan II due to fixing such problems, the oil fix was only implemented this April. I would be a bit annoyed if my car was from March or earlier where cars were being produced before the modification rolled out.
I think the most useful thing TVR could do to make clear the Speed 6 scenario is to list the modifications which have been made and the dates they were implemented, perhaps from which car number for even more clarity. That way people would be able to know what exactly their car is, or a potential purchase and use TVR or TVR Craft to modify as needed.
SXS said:
Point taken. I'll throw this record away.
(sideways, thats all somebody had to say!)
Personally, I think if somebodies got some information about S6s going pop, I for one would like to know about it and think it should be posted. I'm thinking about upgrading to a S6 engined car in the near future and would welcome this info. Keeping it in the dark doesn't help anybody IMO.
heyandy said:
However, today I spotted a Chim being tailed by a Tuscan on the A12 and the Tuscan looked and sounded awesome. Whatever the state of its engine - it did enough to convince me the Tuscan is a fantastic car which is what really counts to those who pay their money and makes their choice.
If the Tuscan was black, LOUD and we went through the toll at the Dartford Crossing at the same time that was me,I think you left the A12 near Chelmsford?
Trinitycall and I were heading up to Helmingham Hall for the car show.
Btw The engine is very happy as is the driver.
Thanks for the "awesome" ...
Well I've just ordered a new Tuscan 2. Its got a 3 year waranty, it will be run in properly, and it will be genuinly looked after. I love TVR. If it goes pop it goes pop. It will be mended and I'll run it until the warranty runs out, then I'll get another new one.
Posts like this don't put me off. Why the bloody 'ell TVR "enthusiasts" devalue the marque I'll never Know.
Posts like this don't put me off. Why the bloody 'ell TVR "enthusiasts" devalue the marque I'll never Know.
ntel said:
Well I've just ordered a new Tuscan 2. Its got a 3 year waranty, it will be run in properly, and it will be genuinly looked after. I love TVR. If it goes pop it goes pop. It will be mended and I'll run it until the warranty runs out, then I'll get another new one.
Posts like this don't put me off. Why the bloody 'ell TVR "enthusiasts" devalue the marque I'll never Know.
Because someone who is just as much an enthusiast as you but not lucky enough to be able to buy a new one will buy your three year old car. After you have got a good price for it because you have serviced it, run it in and warmed it up religiously, the new enthusiast will still expect the car to run as it should for many miles to come. It may do. But, as many, many people on here have posted a lot of the time these perfectly owned cars do not. When they dont TVR deny all responsibility yet take £5000 from the new buyer to get their car on the road again with the knowledge that a number of people have had to pay for a second and sometimes third rebuild.
Luckily you are a relatively lucky owner so far. I hope it stays that way, you dont have any reliability problems and you get a goot price for your car when you want to sell it.
I lot of people on here have not been so lucky, so please do not lambast their experiences. A lot of people cannot afford a new Tuscan II and are looking for a pre July 2004 Tuscan with no warranty. They are looking for information.
If you dont want to look at this information, no-one is forcing you to. However if you are unlucky enough to need to use it, you will know where it is!
>> Edited by justinp1 on Monday 8th August 22:42
justinp1 said:
Well I've just ordered a new Tuscan 2. Its got a 3 year waranty, it will be run in properly, and it will be genuinly looked after. I love TVR. If it goes pop it goes pop. It will be mended and I'll run it until the warranty runs out, then I'll get another new one.
Posts like this don't put me off. Why the bloody 'ell TVR "enthusiasts" devalue the marque I'll never Know.
Because someone who is just as much an enthusiast as you but not lucky enough to be able to buy a new one will buy your three year old car. After you have got a good price for it because you have serviced it, run it in and warmed it up religiously, the new enthusiast will still expect the car to run as it should for many miles to come. It may do. But, as many, many people on here have posted a lot of the time these perfectly owned cars do not. When they dont TVR deny all responsibility yet take £5000 from the new buyer to get their car on the road again with the knowledge that a number of people have had to pay for a second and sometimes third rebuild.
Luckily you are a relatively lucky owner so far. I hope it stays that way, you dont have any reliability problems and you get a goot price for your car when you want to sell it.
I lot of people on here have not been so lucky, so please do not lambast their experiences. A lot of people cannot afford a new Tuscan II and are looking for a pre July 2004 Tuscan with no warranty. They are looking for information.
If you dont want to look at this information, no-one is forcing you to. However if you are unlucky enough to need to use it, you will know where it is!
>> Edited by justinp1 on Monday 8th August 22:42
Whats all that about? Listen Pal. I've had a Chim 450 for the past 18 months. I thought it was a good one, it wasn't. I've had to spend £7,000 on it to get it perfect. OK, I willingly was prepared to spend the money on it. Some people may have found that a bit too much to bear and fair enough. I went into TVR ownership with my eyes wide open. I'm now, not LUCKY enough,( because I work Fu**ing hard for my money as a director, as you are) but able to afford one of these.
Stop whining. If you dont like em buy a bloody Ford.
Good night
bjwoods said:
There are hundreds if not thousands of chims/griff out there with 30-40-50-60k miles or even much higher with routine servicing... WITH many owners very willing to testify to this, I have not seen/heard of ANY s6's with 30k plus miles, with no work, but plenty of ajp v8's have manged it.
In my opinion, as I'm concerned there is a serious issue / flaw /quality problemwith the s6 engine, it has not been adressed by TVR..
something slightly backed up by the ENGINES designer now providing/talks/fix due to TVR NOT doing it to his original design... If the designer thinks they got it wrong, IT tends to put me for one, off them...
Ultimately, who cares about my opinion, but if the designer is propsing a fix, TVR do NOT defend their engine, who is anyone to believe. or be foolish enough to part with cash now (I HAD actually thought post jsg survey, that they had got it sorted, and was making enquiries about buying one especially after the warranty was changed - ie though to big a risk for the company to do this, if NOT sorted- but I'm inclined to agree with justin, that it is pure marketing, no fix), in light of these new events, ie nov 05, march 05 cars going pop, see other threads
We will have to disagree.
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Sunday 7th August 21:39
Camshafts go on the Rover V8 quite often. Mine went around 30k, a colleagues went in the late 20ks. OK, only 800 pounds or so to fix rather than 3-5k, but the engines aren't as bulletproof as some may think.
My main complaint on the Speed Six is that TVR should either put the parts up for sale so anyone can fix them when they go pop or help us out by being a bit more responsive. Parts supply is probably the easiest route for them - maybe we should be campaigning for this. Some valves, guides, head gasket, camshafts and bobs your uncle
ntel said:
justinp1 said:
ntel said:
Well I've just ordered a new Tuscan 2. Its got a 3 year waranty, it will be run in properly, and it will be genuinly looked after. I love TVR. If it goes pop it goes pop. It will be mended and I'll run it until the warranty runs out, then I'll get another new one.
Posts like this don't put me off. Why the bloody 'ell TVR "enthusiasts" devalue the marque I'll never Know.
Because someone who is just as much an enthusiast as you but not lucky enough to be able to buy a new one will buy your three year old car. After you have got a good price for it because you have serviced it, run it in and warmed it up religiously, the new enthusiast will still expect the car to run as it should for many miles to come. It may do. But, as many, many people on here have posted a lot of the time these perfectly owned cars do not. When they dont TVR deny all responsibility yet take £5000 from the new buyer to get their car on the road again with the knowledge that a number of people have had to pay for a second and sometimes third rebuild.
Luckily you are a relatively lucky owner so far. I hope it stays that way, you dont have any reliability problems and you get a goot price for your car when you want to sell it.
I lot of people on here have not been so lucky, so please do not lambast their experiences. A lot of people cannot afford a new Tuscan II and are looking for a pre July 2004 Tuscan with no warranty. They are looking for information.
If you dont want to look at this information, no-one is forcing you to. However if you are unlucky enough to need to use it, you will know where it is!
>> Edited by justinp1 on Monday 8th August 22:42
Whats all that about? Listen Pal. I've had a Chim 450 for the past 18 months. I thought it was a good one, it wasn't. I've had to spend £7,000 on it to get it perfect. OK, I willingly was prepared to spend the money on it. Some people may have found that a bit too much to bear and fair enough. I went into TVR ownership with my eyes wide open. I'm now, not LUCKY enough,( because I work Fu**ing hard for my money as a director, as you are) but able to afford one of these.
Stop whining. If you dont like em buy a bloody Ford.
Good night
Sorry about the fact that this is off topic however I really dont understand the point you are trying to make. This thread is about the fact that 'new' Speed Six engines are still needing to be rebuilt. The poster I have replied to is explaining his situation that he will own the car in warranty, he may not be financially affected and thus is asking why such a thread exists.
This I answered with what I feel is a factual account of what has happened to people in the past.
I wish you luck with your Chim and understand your situation and hope that now you are happy with the way it is you will enjoy it.
Sorry to point out the obvious this section is for issues regarding the Speed Six engine, where many owners are spending £5000 *just to keep the car running* let alone to get the car how they want it. Many of these owners went in with their eyes open, and with an amount of trust in TVR which was seriously non-reciprocal. If you dont believe me read the thread from the guy who put his deposit down for an early Tuscan, then had to pay for three rebuilds. His eyes were open.
My point in the post you have responded to is that Speed Six issues are not just for new buyers, if anything they are more important for second hand buyers, hard working people, people as you have explained like yourself. Thus, I really dont understand the point or the criticism you are aiming toward me.
If the crux of your post is 'stop whining', then thanks for that, your view is read. If you believe that the situation that I have explained above, one which many people have had the experience of is whining, then we must agree to disagree.
A number of people choose to accept things even though they may think they are wrong. A lot of people dont. If this is whining then call me and others a whiner as much as you want.
>> Edited by justinp1 on Tuesday 9th August 01:24
Sorry guys just got to post this and I know you won't like it.
Just finished watching the BBC's Hiroshima programme and then stumbled in here - all this throwing of insults at each other is pretty sad really.
You all own fantastic toys, OK they may stop working from time to time for whatever reason, big deal there a a lot of people much worse off then you.
Just finished watching the BBC's Hiroshima programme and then stumbled in here - all this throwing of insults at each other is pretty sad really.
You all own fantastic toys, OK they may stop working from time to time for whatever reason, big deal there a a lot of people much worse off then you.
puffsorted2 said:
Sorry guys just got to post this and I know you won't like it.
Just finished watching the BBC's Hiroshima programme and then stumbled in here - all this throwing of insults at each other is pretty sad really.
You all own fantastic toys, OK they may stop working from time to time for whatever reason, big deal there a a lot of people much worse off then you.
Hi puffsorted,
I also watched the BBC Hiroshima programme.
I take your point, however the same could be said to be true to any thread on here or in fact driving cars in general...
You have your right to think we are sad, and if you have something to contribute to the subject of the thread, that would be better, but I dont think it is true to say that insults are being thrown at eachother!?
Edited to add... apart from telling us our thread is sad and many peoples everyday car is a toy!
Sometimes threads do end up in disagreements of view which is perfectly natural. However some posters turn into a personal rant. It must be said that this is often caused by posts which have nothing to do with the subject title. Half of the reason why the SP6 discussions p*ssed of the Tuscan forum were because the threads which started as useful information ended up being personal sideshows and never properly discussed. This meant the same title cropped up again and again. This p*ssed people off even more...
The Speed Six section only being a week old has brought to light a lot of new very useful information, so as well as not annoying the Tuscan forum, it IS actually doing its job. Now we are talking about specific issues, lets try to keep these things on topic?
>> Edited by justinp1 on Wednesday 10th August 00:19
puffsorted2 said:
Sorry guys just got to post this and I know you won't like it.
Just finished watching the BBC's Hiroshima programme and then stumbled in here - all this throwing of insults at each other is pretty sad really.
You all own fantastic toys, OK they may stop working from time to time for whatever reason, big deal there a a lot of people much worse off then you.
Hark at Mr Sanctimonious.
puffsorted2 said:
Sorry guys just got to post this and I know you won't like it.
You all own fantastic toys, OK they may stop working from time to time for whatever reason, big deal there a a lot of people much worse off then you.
Why do you think anyone gives a monkeys about what you think? You sanctimonious little twerp.
(If you want to sin bin me again Dave go ahead. This place is getting bitchier than the Miss World dressing rooms).
unrepentant said:
Sorry guys just got to post this and I know you won't like it.
You all own fantastic toys, OK they may stop working from time to time for whatever reason, big deal there a a lot of people much worse off then you.
Why do you think anyone gives a monkeys about what you think? You sanctimonious little twerp.
(If you want to sin bin me again Dave go ahead. This place is getting bitchier than the Miss World dressing rooms).
Nice here in'it
justinp1 said:
Sorry guys just got to post this and I know you won't like it.
Just finished watching the BBC's Hiroshima programme and then stumbled in here - all this throwing of insults at each other is pretty sad really.
You all own fantastic toys, OK they may stop working from time to time for whatever reason, big deal there a a lot of people much worse off then you.
Hi puffsorted,
I also watched the BBC Hiroshima programme.
I take your point, however the same could be said to be true to any thread on here or in fact driving cars in general...
You have your right to think we are sad, and if you have something to contribute to the subject of the thread, that would be better, but I dont think it is true to say that insults are being thrown at eachother!?
Edited to add... apart from telling us our thread is sad and many peoples everyday car is a toy!
Sometimes threads do end up in disagreements of view which is perfectly natural. However some posters turn into a personal rant. It must be said that this is often caused by posts which have nothing to do with the subject title. Half of the reason why the SP6 discussions p*ssed of the Tuscan forum were because the threads which started as useful information ended up being personal sideshows and never properly discussed. This meant the same title cropped up again and again. This p*ssed people off even more...
The Speed Six section only being a week old has brought to light a lot of new very useful information, so as well as not annoying the Tuscan forum, it IS actually doing its job. Now we are talking about specific issues, lets try to keep these things on topic?
>> Edited by justinp1 on Wednesday 10th August 00:19
Point taken
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