Its just an engine after all

[kipper_]

Please feel free to flame me but I cannot understand why...

1. When engine parts fail it is always a full rebuild instead of replacing the broken parts

2. It seems that less than a dozen places are ever mentioned to do this work.

Is the speed six so complicated that an experienced engineer could not figure it out?

My car may well be in need of this work but I am reticent to pay upwards of £4k if replacing the broken parts will potentially cost less than £1500

Any thoughts

[justinp1]

kipper_ said:

Please feel free to flame me but I cannot understand why... 1. When engine parts fail it is always a full rebuild instead of replacing the broken parts 2. It seems that less than a dozen places are ever mentioned to do this work. Is the speed six so complicated that an experienced engineer could not figure it out? My car may well be in need of this work but I am reticent to pay upwards of £4k if replacing the broken parts will potentially cost less than £1500 Any thoughts

Hi,

All good common sense questions!

1) The broken parts need the engine to be taken apart then set back up to fit them.

2) Up until a few months ago the only people who could do this was the TVR factory in Blackpool, the dealers were not allowed. Also TVR are 'reluctant' in selling spare parts for their engines so people can use someone else to do it!

3) I think it is more a case of being able to analyse a few 'blown' engines. A quick search on here will put you toward a couple on non-TVR alternatives.

I think your last comment is the one which a lot of people have empathy with. I believe the problem is that a majority of the cost involved is labour. A lot of people have been reluctant to give TVR money to fix something which they feel should not have broken so soon.

Hope this helps.

[jeremyc]

kipper_ said:

1. When engine parts fail it is always a full rebuild instead of replacing the broken parts

Because if the broken parts have been ingested by the engine (as might often be the case with disintegrating valve gear) they may have caused other damage. If nothing else, you'll want your whole engine very carefully cleaned out to remove all of the metal particles.

>> Edited by jeremyc on Tuesday 9th August 12:59

[GreenV8S]

A small and cheap component may do significant damage to the rest of the engine as it fails. Anything that puts swarf into the oil will potentially destroy every bearing in the engine, for example.

[kipper_]

I understand about the potential damage from swarf etc. But I have had top end rebuilds on a number of the cars I have owned over the past 25 years and none has cost anything like the prices people are talking about(or needed the whole engine rebuilding).

If the issue is caught early (when just knocking) then there is likely to be little valve damage disintegration etc or surely the engine would be running badly?

I cannot see why a good local garage should be any worse than some of the specialists from previous experiences it comes down to the skill / dedication and pride of the engineer in question.

>> Edited by kipper_ on Tuesday 9th August 14:18

[SXS]

kipper_ said:

I understand about the potential damage from swarf etc. But I have had top end rebuilds on a number of the cars I have owned over the past 25 years and none has cost anything like the prices people are talking about(or needed the whole engine rebuilding). If the issue is caught early (when just knocking) then there is likely to be little valve damage disintegration etc or surely the engine would be running badly? I cannot see why a good local garage should be any worse than some of the specialists from previous experiences it comes down to the skill / dedication and pride of the engineer in question.

That would be great if you could get hold of all the components, numbers and specs and a list of 'dos' and 'donts' - but you cant, so you either fork out the money to get someone who has all this info and either factory standard or upgraded custom components (eg tvrcraft), or you hire someone to try and figure it all out and then try to get some 'copy' parts made up - either way - you're looking at bucks! and anyway the private mick down the road route might not even work out as expected

>> Edited by SXS on Tuesday 9th August 15:11

[GreenV8S]

kipper_ said:

I have had top end rebuilds on a number of the cars I have owned over the past 25 years and none has cost anything like the prices people are talking about(or needed the whole engine rebuilding).

Were these pre-emptive rebuilds due to worn valve train, or repairs following a total failure?

[porkus]

I bet a SP6 is less complicated than a bike engine and that is a Mechanical Engineers opinion (mine) and I have no probs mending bike engines

>> Edited by porkus on Tuesday 9th August 18:50

[kipper_]

This is my point, There are lots of very technical engines out there these days what makes the speed 6 so special that you need to take it to just a handfull of specialists.

I have a local indeoendant that specialises in sports cars (Porsche mainly). Why should they be any worse than the "specialists"

[JR]

GreenV8S said:

kipper_ said: I have had top end rebuilds on a number of the cars I have owned over the past 25 years and none has cost anything like the prices people are talking about(or needed the whole engine rebuilding). Were these pre-emptive rebuilds due to worn valve train, or repairs following a total failure?

Peter, I maybe being dumb here but what's your point for the cars that have had complete rebuilds because of worn valve train and not total failure?

[rev-erend]

porkus said:

I bet a SP6 is less complicated than a bike engine and that is a Mechanical Engineers opinion (mine) and I have no probs mending bike engines >> Edited by porkus on Tuesday 9th August 18:50

The speed six is very much a copy of the GXSR Suzuki engine .. at least the head design is..

It does seem a high price (6K) but whole sale changes seem to be needed.. and a fair amount of labour.

I for one hope it's a fix as many of us here will need it within the next few years and it's good to have another source apart from TVR - as

1. TVR might not be around forever

2. Competition forces prices down

3. TVR might actually come clean and make a competitive priced fix themselves.. and tell us what they are fixing

So - competition might be good.

[porkus]

If it is like a GSXR engine which is one of the simplest bike engines to work on (compared with a Yamaha or a Honda) then for a mechanically minded person with a good amount of experience it wouldnt be an issue
On the other hand the SP6 is TVR's current engine and this will cause any Engineering details to be kept close to TVR
As the design life gets older more detail will emerge
But I cannot see it being anywhere near as complicated as a new BM V8 for example
When a bike engine is smashed to bits because the valves or con-rods have let go it doesnt cost £5000
You get a whole bike for that!!!
More like £1500
I just had my GSXR gearbox done as 2nd gear let go for £100
Someone is making a lot of money somewhere
As for a lot of labour........from a production line point of view even if the Assembler went for a beer for 4 hrs a day I cant see a whole engine taking more than 8 hrs to complete from scratch if it was all in bits.....thats why is is called a production line
I mean if the factory says its £5000 for a rebuild:
Assembly Labour charged at £30 an hour in an average factory.........
thats 166 hours to rebuild and engine?!!!!!!...........
or one man flat out for 4.4 weeks? dont think so.....
say TVR build 540 cars a year thats 540 engines
or 540 engine in 232 working days at 8 hours a day or 2.3 engines a day which is basically costing the factory £103 a day per man

[porkus]

So a TVR engine takes 3.47 hours to build from scratch or 10.41 hrs on a 3 shift system (£309)......
If 3 men built one engine it would be 3x times the costs which isnt anywhere near £5000!!! nearer £1000
I cant believe the design costs were £2,160,000........which is what the rest of the £5k calculates too.
For instance 4 design engineers @ 28k per year and 3 years to develop the engine = £224,000.....
£5k Seems a rip off to me.......
In our factory a rebuild would cost:
Labour £117 for two men (engine build from scratch all piece parts.)
Parts say £1200 @ factory cost
Labour to extract and fit engine £272
Total of £1589.

Sorry will get off Engineering Soapbox now.

[chris watton]

porkus said:

Someone is making a lot of money somewhere

Thats what I believe also!, I have read your posts with interest, and although I'm not mechanically minded at all (just like to drive the thing),but to me, you seem to make a lot of sense, and I have always believed that others are making a huge amout of money out of our misery. If someone said they could fix any probs that may occur before they happen (if, they ever do) for £1.5K max, that's fine, but we automatically have to assume we have to spend £5K, which is a hell of a lot of money by most people's standards, as a matter of course! Why, when £5K I can have a 3.6 - 4ltr upgrade from TVR Power?

[porkus]

and that is the one things thats swaying me towards buying a RV8 rather than a gorgeous Tuscan
I mean for an engine rebuild you could buy a car!!

I agree 5k would be better spent on:

A Garage
or a Holiday
some nitrons
some wheels
leven stuff
sporty exhaust
petrol

etc etc

and as an Engineer who is fascinated by these cars I think it is a shame as if I was an Engineer at a place like TVR I would be knocking on a door somewhere in the factory out of pride to try and resolve the issues

I have known Engineers to quit jobs for less than this (honestly)

Its just my point of view but I think from an Engineering POV 5k is excessive by far

For instance most Max Power boys have what can only be called special engines such as Courtenay etc in Vauxhalls albiet less exotic to start with and they cost far far less to rebuild but the parts are just as exotic engineering wise.(same for bikes as well, titanium valves etc etc)

[porkus]

But shamefully the same is true of all engineering these days in the UK, trying to compete with abroad
Everything is being built down to a price to break even and survive or please the shareholders and quality suffers
It is often now cheaper to pay the warranty than employ a full time quality dept and so standards suffer.
The thing is I love these cars so much I am still going to get one and will just pray I suppose!

[porkus]

GreenV8S said:

A small and cheap component may do significant damage to the rest of the engine as it fails. Anything that puts swarf into the oil will potentially destroy every bearing in the engine, for example.

I agree but bearings are cheap to replace and not a difficult task
All bearings can be sourced from Bearing Factors eventually even strange sizes.
and valve seats, valves, cams and bores can be replaced by a good home mechanic if the information and parts supply exists for a lot cheaper than £5k?

Talking of oil:

Do you think the SP6 issues may be caused, rather than poor part quality, by a lack of oil getting to the top end under load? e.g; bad oil gallery design or under specced oil pump?, it seems unusual that so many components would fail mechanically like this.

[_DeeJay_]

porkus said:

Talking of oil: Do you think the SP6 issues may be caused, rather than poor part quality, by a lack of oil getting to the top end under load? e.g; bad oil gallery design or under specced oil pump?, it seems unusual that so many components would fail mechanically like this.

Wasn't that already stated as a 'known issue'? I also remember someone mentioning that there were changes to the oil pump/pipe work in later cars to improve oil flow?

[Flash19]

porkus said:

I bet a SP6 is less complicated than a bike engine and that is a Mechanical Engineers opinion (mine) and I have no probs mending bike engines >> Edited by porkus on Tuesday 9th August 18:50

I'm not a mechanical engineer but have rebuilt my bike engine and seen an S6 in assembly at the factory. They are pretty similar, the S6 is much closer to a huge capacity bike engine than a car engine. It may be similar to a GSXR motor, but IMO imagine a huge water cooled CBX1000 6cyl with a 24 valve head and a dry sump and you get the picture!

One of the reasons that the labour will be so high is that none of the people on this thread have factored for either removal, replacement, or stripping. Yes it may take 4 hours to build but it also takes 4 hours to strip and about another 4 hours to remove, and another 4 hours to replace. AND I seriously doubt that you can in reality build or strip one in 4 hours. My Z1000 took me (admitedly an amateur) 4 days to do and it was a damn sight easier to remove and replace, and only took one man to remove and replace. My guess is that this entire process takes closer to:

6 man hours removal
8 mand hours strip
8 man hours rebuild
6 man hours refit
28 man hours total.

[virgil]

Ah...but think also of how many bike engines have been built, so econemies of scale come into it. 100s of 1000s of parts made (of even exotic material) = quite cheap. Few hundred of rusty reclaimed mild steel = v. expensive.

Also no one is going to do it at cost. (Not even TVR...even though it should not have broken in the first place)

Look at it this way...
Manufacturer charges TVR for the widget, then TVR Engineering (pretend they make said widget) charge TVR repair shop for it, then TVR repair shop charge you for it....by the time you open your wallet, you're paying three times the original price??

Then you pay to have it fitted by the 'expert' and I bet they don't work at £30/hr. More like £90/hr +/- £30. Also you pay this regardless of whether it is an engineer with 30+ years of racing experience working on your engine, or newbie with a set of Fisher-price spanners.

I totally agree with all the sentiment (which is why I've got a RV8 griff not a tuscan) but unfortunately no one does anything for 'free' these days...not even at cost.

Humph