Another one! Tap, tap, clack clack !!!
Discussion
Hello folks,
Now I have read all about the problems with the SP6 engine on here over the last two weeks, but still bought a nice 25,000 mile Tuscan with full service history.
It all happened 8pm last night, warmed the engine too, but luckily I heard it coming, it was a faint tick at first, then after a few seconds 10 or so, progressed to a tap, not a loud tap, but noticeable.
So limped home, and took the engine cover off.
The first thing I notice is the air-box clips were missing, so a poor show from the chap that last serviced it!!
I had to cut round the sealer to remove the spark plug cover (bit that has speed six written on it), and proceeded to remove the camshaft cover in the correct manner, loosening then as you would head bolts.
I found the culprit, which was on the inlet side of pot six right at the back of the engine, I could lift the arm about 3mm to make the same tapping noise. Now I don’t know if this is a guide seized, or a bent valve. I would suspect a guide by how the noise progressed. The picture below shows the finger followers that are talked about so much!
"Whitey" noticed after talking to a chap at the factory that the 2004+ engines had solid camshafts (rather than hollow with oilways); teflon coated valves. Solid finger followers (rather than two part ones). Harder head bolt washers to stop head gasket failures.
I don’t know what has been done to this engine, but suspect that the finger followers are by first glance solid single parts.
I am now about to look into if I should take the head off myself and rectify what’s gone wrong.
Paying £4500+ for someone who omits clips off my engine to make a slap happy repair isn't the way forward, and don’t know if I should mention who last serviced this car only a thousand miles ago!!
Here’s my shopping last as far as I can see, prices from www.tvrgear.com:-
Tuscan - 7mm BRONZE VALVE GUIDES 24/C £2.26 GBP Each
Tuscan - AIR BOX BRKT £21.03 GBP
Tuscan - FINGER FOLLOWER - 24/CAR £10.58 GBP Each
Tuscan - HEAD GASKET £101.05 GBP
Tuscan - HEAD GASKET '0' RING 6mm X 2 £0.53 GBP
Tuscan - INLET VALVE - 12/CAR £8.20 GBP Each
Tuscan - VALVE GUIDE SEAL - 24/CAR £1.79 GBP Each
If the heads off should it be skimmed flat? Do I need new head bolts (if stretched). Most importantly is the torque settings for these, and sequence of tightening.
I would have thought I would have needed exhaust gaskets, but these may be included in the head gasket set
Anyhow I will be sure to keep this well documented with lots and lots of pictures. Fingers crossed for me.
ANY help would be appreciated however small a contribution it may seem.
Now I have read all about the problems with the SP6 engine on here over the last two weeks, but still bought a nice 25,000 mile Tuscan with full service history.
It all happened 8pm last night, warmed the engine too, but luckily I heard it coming, it was a faint tick at first, then after a few seconds 10 or so, progressed to a tap, not a loud tap, but noticeable.
So limped home, and took the engine cover off.
The first thing I notice is the air-box clips were missing, so a poor show from the chap that last serviced it!!
I had to cut round the sealer to remove the spark plug cover (bit that has speed six written on it), and proceeded to remove the camshaft cover in the correct manner, loosening then as you would head bolts.
I found the culprit, which was on the inlet side of pot six right at the back of the engine, I could lift the arm about 3mm to make the same tapping noise. Now I don’t know if this is a guide seized, or a bent valve. I would suspect a guide by how the noise progressed. The picture below shows the finger followers that are talked about so much!
"Whitey" noticed after talking to a chap at the factory that the 2004+ engines had solid camshafts (rather than hollow with oilways); teflon coated valves. Solid finger followers (rather than two part ones). Harder head bolt washers to stop head gasket failures.
I don’t know what has been done to this engine, but suspect that the finger followers are by first glance solid single parts.
I am now about to look into if I should take the head off myself and rectify what’s gone wrong.
Paying £4500+ for someone who omits clips off my engine to make a slap happy repair isn't the way forward, and don’t know if I should mention who last serviced this car only a thousand miles ago!!
Here’s my shopping last as far as I can see, prices from www.tvrgear.com:-
Tuscan - 7mm BRONZE VALVE GUIDES 24/C £2.26 GBP Each
Tuscan - AIR BOX BRKT £21.03 GBP
Tuscan - FINGER FOLLOWER - 24/CAR £10.58 GBP Each
Tuscan - HEAD GASKET £101.05 GBP
Tuscan - HEAD GASKET '0' RING 6mm X 2 £0.53 GBP
Tuscan - INLET VALVE - 12/CAR £8.20 GBP Each
Tuscan - VALVE GUIDE SEAL - 24/CAR £1.79 GBP Each
If the heads off should it be skimmed flat? Do I need new head bolts (if stretched). Most importantly is the torque settings for these, and sequence of tightening.
I would have thought I would have needed exhaust gaskets, but these may be included in the head gasket set
Anyhow I will be sure to keep this well documented with lots and lots of pictures. Fingers crossed for me.
ANY help would be appreciated however small a contribution it may seem.
Justin,
Very sorry to hear about your troubles, The car was 'apparently' serviced by a TVR garage and it had no securing pins on the airbox! Hard to bite ones tongue sometimes, isn't it?
Your post is very well written/informative and I respect fully what you are about to do, please keep us informed on how you get on, I'm sure there are a lot on here who would be intersted, and also why we have to fork out £5K per rebuild, that pill was too bitter for you to take, and a lot of others too (me included if it ever happens)
>> Edited by chris watton on Friday 2nd September 14:38
Very sorry to hear about your troubles, The car was 'apparently' serviced by a TVR garage and it had no securing pins on the airbox! Hard to bite ones tongue sometimes, isn't it?
Your post is very well written/informative and I respect fully what you are about to do, please keep us informed on how you get on, I'm sure there are a lot on here who would be intersted, and also why we have to fork out £5K per rebuild, that pill was too bitter for you to take, and a lot of others too (me included if it ever happens)
>> Edited by chris watton on Friday 2nd September 14:38
chris watton said:
Justin,
Very sorry to hear about your troubles, you bought it from a dealer and it had no securing pins on the airbox! Hard to bite ones tongue sometimes, isn't it?
Your post is very well written/informative and I respect fully what you are about to do, please keep us informed on how you get on, I'm sure there are a lot on here who would be intersted, and also why we have to fork out £5K per rebuild, that was pill too bitter for you to take, and a lot of others too (me included if it ever happens)
Chris,
Justin doesnt mention a dealer in his post - or have I missed something?
Justin,
Good luck with your quest for information and parts to rebuild.
Daftlad said:
Chris,
Justin doesnt mention a dealer in his post - or have I missed something?
.
I was referring to this;
[quote]Paying £4500+ for someone who omits clips off my engine to make a slap happy repair isn't the way forward, and don’t know if I should mention who last serviced this car only a thousand miles ago!![/quote]
chris watton said:[/quote]
Chris,
Justin doesnt mention a dealer in his post - or have I missed something?
.
I was referring to this;
[quote]Paying £4500+ for someone who omits clips off my engine to make a slap happy repair isn't the way forward, and don’t know if I should mention who last serviced this car only a thousand miles ago!!
So no mention of a dealer then.
I am not going to mention the last service center just yet, my car was a private sale last week.
I also found some washers left on the engine decks just loose (lost eh), and the airbox had been cracked by overtightening the nylock nuts, then glassed over!
I have a nice picture of whats happened to both my inlet valves on number six.
You can see the top of the valve spring retainer has been litteraly smashed, and I am unsure how this type of damage would happen. any ideas?
Heres another problem, below, the exhaust does get hot for sure, but I would have expected that this would have been spotted, those electrical connections have melted away, a simple heat reflective tape would have prevented this. Shocking!
I am not too fussed about the melted parts, more scared about what I might find below the mess above!
I also found some washers left on the engine decks just loose (lost eh), and the airbox had been cracked by overtightening the nylock nuts, then glassed over!
I have a nice picture of whats happened to both my inlet valves on number six.
You can see the top of the valve spring retainer has been litteraly smashed, and I am unsure how this type of damage would happen. any ideas?
Heres another problem, below, the exhaust does get hot for sure, but I would have expected that this would have been spotted, those electrical connections have melted away, a simple heat reflective tape would have prevented this. Shocking!
I am not too fussed about the melted parts, more scared about what I might find below the mess above!
Great to see somebody getting stuck in
Looks like the shim has poped out getting mashed between the retainer and follower on the way out, look out for shim in the head somewhere, could be a problem if its got washed into the engine. If the guides ok and the follower tip and sweeping face are not damaged might be able to fix it without pulling the engine out/head off.
>> Edited by JayB on Friday 2nd September 12:31
Looks like the shim has poped out getting mashed between the retainer and follower on the way out, look out for shim in the head somewhere, could be a problem if its got washed into the engine. If the guides ok and the follower tip and sweeping face are not damaged might be able to fix it without pulling the engine out/head off.
>> Edited by JayB on Friday 2nd September 12:31
Justin
A truely excellent post and photos, tho I am sorry to here your of your woes.
Looks like a valve shim has broken up. I have a similar problem, but have taken the TVR Craft route as I believe their solution will provide a better fix than replacing with TVR components even tho some suggest the TVR parts have been updated from original spec. in my view teflon coated valve stems may last only slightly longer than the standard items, in many cases probably long enough for a 3 year warranty...! I guess it depends on how long you want to keep your car after you fix it. On the other hand taking your DIY route I believe you will likely be able to perform many rebuilds for the cost of one specialists. Try and make sure no filings or bits have found their way to accelerate further wear and tear after you reassemble. I hate to add a negative but, do consider that future buyers may be sceptical about a self rebuild no matter how well you may have done it.
Top marks to you, good luck and please do keep us updated.
Kind regards
G
A truely excellent post and photos, tho I am sorry to here your of your woes.
Looks like a valve shim has broken up. I have a similar problem, but have taken the TVR Craft route as I believe their solution will provide a better fix than replacing with TVR components even tho some suggest the TVR parts have been updated from original spec. in my view teflon coated valve stems may last only slightly longer than the standard items, in many cases probably long enough for a 3 year warranty...! I guess it depends on how long you want to keep your car after you fix it. On the other hand taking your DIY route I believe you will likely be able to perform many rebuilds for the cost of one specialists. Try and make sure no filings or bits have found their way to accelerate further wear and tear after you reassemble. I hate to add a negative but, do consider that future buyers may be sceptical about a self rebuild no matter how well you may have done it.
Top marks to you, good luck and please do keep us updated.
Kind regards
G
justinbaker said:
I am not going to mention the last service center just yet, my car was a private sale last week.
Worst nightmare that - buying a car privately, then just 7 days later discovering major problems with the thing.
Best of luck getting this put right - you are already leaps and bounds past what I would be capable of doing with any engine. (With any sewing machine, for that matter!).
Fingers crossed (no pun intended) for you.
P~
>> Edited by PhantomPH on Friday 2nd September 12:32
Well done justinbaker, Its to easy for the specialists to charge huge sums for rebuilds when they assume owners wont dare delve into their own engines. By the look of your parts shopping list there is a big margin to work with. It is after all only an engine, and not a massively complex one at that.
Wish you the very best of luck. Dave.
ps. get yours sorted and you could have a queue of cars at your door ! (hopefully not mine tho)
Wish you the very best of luck. Dave.
ps. get yours sorted and you could have a queue of cars at your door ! (hopefully not mine tho)
The visible damage appears quite small but you have to wonder why the spring seat failed - perhaps the valve guide starting to pick up? And you've got a substantial amount of debris floating around inside the engine which will need to be removed and may already have caused damage. Even a small failure like this caught at an early stage could lead to a huge amount of work to remove and strip the engine. At the other end of the scale you could just use a couple of bent screwdrivers to compress the valve spring in situ (using the 'ball of string' method to hold the valves up), drop a new spring seat and collets in there, and flush the oil - couple of hours work to get back on the road. Who knows, you might even get away with it. I very much doubt you'd find any professionals willing to take this approach though!
I think Justin's point is that he can’t do any worse than the people who serviced the car only 1000 miles ago, and if you're very mechanically minded and competent, there's no reason not to give it a go.
A few years ago, I always designed my projects by hand, on A0 graph paper. This moved on and I paid a professional CAD drawer to digitise my designs onto disk. He charged me so much that I decided to give it a go myself; 3 weeks later I had taught myself enough of the basics that I actually did my first design on CAD. Now, I realise how much I was being stung for, as the jobs I gave this guy to do now take me a day, whereas this guy insisted they take at least a week!
The point is, you never know unless you try!
Fair point about selling the car on though, but if kept, Justin may well save himself thousands!
A few years ago, I always designed my projects by hand, on A0 graph paper. This moved on and I paid a professional CAD drawer to digitise my designs onto disk. He charged me so much that I decided to give it a go myself; 3 weeks later I had taught myself enough of the basics that I actually did my first design on CAD. Now, I realise how much I was being stung for, as the jobs I gave this guy to do now take me a day, whereas this guy insisted they take at least a week!
The point is, you never know unless you try!
Fair point about selling the car on though, but if kept, Justin may well save himself thousands!
GreenV8S said:
The visible damage appears quite small but you have to wonder why the spring seat failed - perhaps the valve guide starting to pick up? And you've got a substantial amount of debris floating around inside the engine which will need to be removed and may already have caused damage. Even a small failure like this caught at an early stage could lead to a huge amount of work to remove and strip the engine. At the other end of the scale you could just use a couple of bent screwdrivers to compress the valve spring in situ (using the 'ball of string' method to hold the valves up), drop a new spring seat and collets in there, and flush the oil - couple of hours work to get back on the road. Who knows, you might even get away with it. I very much doubt you'd find any professionals willing to take this approach though!
yer right..
you could find the torque number for the head bolts by using a 'lever' type torque wrench to measure the breakoff torque, if you aslo take angle measurements at the smae time when you average the results out you should have a pretty reasonable torque figure.
As to the torque pattern usually centre working outwards farthest bolt to farthest bolt will work
Matt
As to the torque pattern usually centre working outwards farthest bolt to farthest bolt will work
Matt
Gassing Station | Speed Six Engine | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff