Have you ever heard about modifying data stored in a BMW key
Discussion
Hello everybody,
I know it sounds a bit strange, but I am a forensic researcher and one of my customers is in trouble, because he is being accused of thiefing his own car. The data stored in the key (BMW) doesn't match with the story he told the police, he told them his car was stolen between X hour and Y hour. The data stored in the key says the car was used between these hours, and although my customer denies it, the insurance company has denounced him.
My theory is that thieves changed the data when they stole the car by using some kind of advanced instrument (I can say the key was inside the house, over the furniture, and the car was outside, so it was very close, perhaps 10 meters in line).
Any ideas?
Thanks.
I know it sounds a bit strange, but I am a forensic researcher and one of my customers is in trouble, because he is being accused of thiefing his own car. The data stored in the key (BMW) doesn't match with the story he told the police, he told them his car was stolen between X hour and Y hour. The data stored in the key says the car was used between these hours, and although my customer denies it, the insurance company has denounced him.
My theory is that thieves changed the data when they stole the car by using some kind of advanced instrument (I can say the key was inside the house, over the furniture, and the car was outside, so it was very close, perhaps 10 meters in line).
Any ideas?
Thanks.
AW10 said:
Hello,Thanks but I already knew this article. In it, it is not exactly said that the key can be modified by the thieves by using radio frequency.
The Spruce goose said:
From what I know to modify the keys they would need the keys. If it was stolen I guess if the keys were near the car they might update but I guess this didn't happen. I would say he is lying.
That's the point I would like to clarify. Is it tecnically possible? The keys were so near inside the house and the car was outside.Glasgowrob said:
what if the thieves used a transmitter and spoofed the car/key into thinking they were nearby and hence working normally.
would explain why the key says it was used and explain how the car was stolen.
What do you mean? I don't understand your point of view. How could the key be spoofed if it was 10 meters away? That is the point what I would like to clarify and I would appreciate if anybody links some technical article in order to show it to the Courts.would explain why the key says it was used and explain how the car was stolen.
Thanks.
Jon_Targaryen said:
Hello everybody,
I know it sounds a bit strange, but I am a forensic researcher and one of my customers is in trouble, because he is being accused of thiefing his own car. The data stored in the key (BMW) doesn't match with the story he told the police, he told them his car was stolen between X hour and Y hour. The data stored in the key says the car was used between these hours, and although my customer denies it, the insurance company has denounced him.
My theory is that thieves changed the data when they stole the car by using some kind of advanced instrument (I can say the key was inside the house, over the furniture, and the car was outside, so it was very close, perhaps 10 meters in line).
Any ideas?
Thanks.
Out of curiosity, what motive would a thief have for remotely programming your clients key to imply he'd been driving it during the timeframe they had actually stolen it?I know it sounds a bit strange, but I am a forensic researcher and one of my customers is in trouble, because he is being accused of thiefing his own car. The data stored in the key (BMW) doesn't match with the story he told the police, he told them his car was stolen between X hour and Y hour. The data stored in the key says the car was used between these hours, and although my customer denies it, the insurance company has denounced him.
My theory is that thieves changed the data when they stole the car by using some kind of advanced instrument (I can say the key was inside the house, over the furniture, and the car was outside, so it was very close, perhaps 10 meters in line).
Any ideas?
Thanks.
Seems very odd, surely?
Glasgowrob said:
what if the thieves used a transmitter and spoofed the car/key into thinking they were nearby and hence working normally.
would explain why the key says it was used and explain how the car was stolen.
Exactly. Talk about guilty until proven innocent. Where's Loon when you need him to defend the indefensible.would explain why the key says it was used and explain how the car was stolen.
the key can be spoofed but that is not the point though is it. the key that the owner has, has the information about it being driven which from my knowledge would mean the car would be transmitting to the key which is impossible if it is driven away. If the keys had been taken and near the car after being stolen then i would say the data could have been transmitted from car to keys.
Glasgowrob said:
what if the thieves used a transmitter and spoofed the car/key into thinking they were nearby and hence working normally.
would explain why the key says it was used and explain how the car was stolen.
Surely the key only updates when its in the car? I could potentially understand it if they were seeing the car started using the key, but then nothing more, but the O/P seems to be implying the key says it was present over a period of several hours? Or at least, several connections.would explain why the key says it was used and explain how the car was stolen.
And surely its the car that needs "spoofed" to think the key is present?
And likewise if they had some sort of special device that formed sort of bridge between the car and a remote key thats some distance away, then that just gets the car started, the car then will then at some point stop down the road as will know the key isnt in the vicinity?
daemon said:
Out of curiosity, what motive would a thief have for remotely programming your clients key to imply he'd been driving it during the timeframe they had actually stolen it?
Seems very odd, surely?
It seems very odd, I assume it, but I have to believe my client, he has money and doesn't need to do it.Seems very odd, surely?
Maybe they changed the data accidentally while they were thiefing the car?
If I am right, to steal a car you need first a kind of transponder to sniff the data and then you have to try different keys, so maybe by doing it they changed the data. Or even they didn't want to be prosecuted so they changed the data because they knew the insurance company would read the key...
The Spruce goose said:
the key can be spoofed but that is not the point though is it. the key that the owner has, has the information about it being driven which from my knowledge would mean the car would be transmitting to the key which is impossible if it is driven away. If the keys had been taken and near the car after being stolen then i would say the data could have been transmitted from car to keys.
How could I prove this is possible? I mean, I need to prove the car can send information to the key although the key is not inside the car.Jon_Targaryen said:
daemon said:
Out of curiosity, what motive would a thief have for remotely programming your clients key to imply he'd been driving it during the timeframe they had actually stolen it?
Seems very odd, surely?
It seems very odd, I assume it, but I have to believe my client, he has money and doesn't need to do it.Seems very odd, surely?
Maybe they changed the data accidentally while they were thiefing the car?
If I am right, to steal a car you need first a kind of transponder to sniff the data and then you have to try different keys, so maybe by doing it they changed the data. Or even they didn't want to be prosecuted so they changed the data because they knew the insurance company would read the key...
I remember a friend of mine who worked for an Alfa dealership having to deal with the service department being accused of stealing a customers car from their house by creating a new key. The car subsequently turned up and the key logging showed no new keys were used. Finally a relative (son, from memory) admitted they'd taken the car.
daemon said:
Any scope for it being a family member involved?
I remember a friend of mine who worked for an Alfa dealership having to deal with the service department being accused of stealing a customers car from their house by creating a new key. The car subsequently turned up and the key logging showed no new keys were used. Finally a relative (son, from memory) admitted they'd taken the car.
No way for a family member to be involved. The main question here is:I remember a friend of mine who worked for an Alfa dealership having to deal with the service department being accused of stealing a customers car from their house by creating a new key. The car subsequently turned up and the key logging showed no new keys were used. Finally a relative (son, from memory) admitted they'd taken the car.
Can a BMW key which is outside the car, but very close to it, be updated by the car?
Thanks.
Jon_Targaryen said:
daemon said:
Any scope for it being a family member involved?
I remember a friend of mine who worked for an Alfa dealership having to deal with the service department being accused of stealing a customers car from their house by creating a new key. The car subsequently turned up and the key logging showed no new keys were used. Finally a relative (son, from memory) admitted they'd taken the car.
No way for a family member to be involved. The main question here is:I remember a friend of mine who worked for an Alfa dealership having to deal with the service department being accused of stealing a customers car from their house by creating a new key. The car subsequently turned up and the key logging showed no new keys were used. Finally a relative (son, from memory) admitted they'd taken the car.
Can a BMW key which is outside the car, but very close to it, be updated by the car?
Thanks.
I could "get" if there was a start logged using the key, then nothing else using some sort of duplication technique and then they drove off, but more than one touchpoint surely assumes the key made contact with the car OR the thieves came back, to presumably force the key to update for some reason?
I know f
k all about this sort of thing but logic suggests that, given the key stores data such as time, mileage and mpg, it is only updated when it is (about to be?) removed from the ignition. Your customer's key would therefore need to have been present at the end of the journey.
Unless he has a time machine.
Have you asked BMW?
k all about this sort of thing but logic suggests that, given the key stores data such as time, mileage and mpg, it is only updated when it is (about to be?) removed from the ignition. Your customer's key would therefore need to have been present at the end of the journey.Unless he has a time machine.
Have you asked BMW?
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