Have you ever heard about modifying data stored in a BMW key

[anonymous-user]

Fore Left said:

I know fk all about this sort of thing but logic suggests that, given the key stores data such as time, mileage and mpg, it is only updated when it is (about to be?) removed from the ignition. Your customer's key would therefore need to have been present at the end of the journey.

Unless he has a time machine.

Have you asked BMW?

this is the point i made but what could have happened after it was stolen recovered the customers key then communicated with car as it was bought into vicinity and the key updated, this to me seems the most valid scenario if the key was near the recovered car.

[Yipper]

• Scenario 1 = Car moved without key (time X)... went out of range of key... driven / transported back within range of key (for whatever reason) (time Y)...

• Scenario 2 = Key was reprogrammed over-the-air (OTA) remotely, by laptop or similar device, from a few metres away by somebody outside the property...

Both seem not impossible, but somewhat unlikely.

[Fore Left]

The Spruce goose said:

Fore Left said:

I know fk all about this sort of thing but logic suggests that, given the key stores data such as time, mileage and mpg, it is only updated when it is (about to be?) removed from the ignition. Your customer's key would therefore need to have been present at the end of the journey.

Unless he has a time machine.

Have you asked BMW?

this is the point i made but what could have happened after it was stolen recovered the customers key then communicated with car as it was bought into vicinity and the key updated, this to me seems the most valid scenario if the key was near the recovered car.

That makes some sense if the car was recovered. The fact the insurance company have "denounced" the customer suggests it wasn't.

[Jon_Targaryen]

daemon said:

If theres "evidence" that the car was used during a particular period, surely that implies more than one contact of the car and key OR for all the contact / updating to happen at the end of the period?

I could "get" if there was a start logged using the key, then nothing else using some sort of duplication technique and then they drove off, but more than one touchpoint surely assumes the key made contact with the car OR the thieves came back, to presumably force the key to update for some reason?

But, would it be possible to change/update the data inside the key wirhout having the key (I mean, with the key inside the house)?

[Jon_Targaryen]

Fore Left said:

I know fk all about this sort of thing but logic suggests that, given the key stores data such as time, mileage and mpg, it is only updated when it is (about to be?) removed from the ignition. Your customer's key would therefore need to have been present at the end of the journey.

Unless he has a time machine.

Have you asked BMW?

We have asked but only read the key, nothing else.

[Jon_Targaryen]

Yipper said:

* Scenario 1 = Car moved without key (time X)... went out of range of key... driven / transported back within range of key (for whatever reason) (time Y)...

• Scenario 2 = Key was reprogrammed over-the-air (OTA) remotely, by laptop or similar device, from a few metres away by somebody outside the property...

Both seem not impossible, but somewhat unlikely.

But is the second scenario possible? Which klind of instrumental is needed?

Thanks.

[Jon_Targaryen]

Fore Left said:

That makes some sense if the car was recovered. The fact the insurance company have "denounced" the customer suggests it wasn't.

The car has not been recovered.

[anonymous-user]

i can't see how it would easiest way is check it the key communicates via gprs. You can get testers.

[TooMany2cvs]

Jon_Targaryen said:

It seems very odd, I assume it, but I have to believe my client, he has money and doesn't need to do it.

Does he need his licence...? I wonder if, when recovered eventually, the car will turn out to be bent. Was it late at night, perhaps? Might he not be tee-total?

Jon_Targaryen said:

Maybe they changed the data accidentally while they were thiefing the car?

In a key they didn't have?

Occam's razor says he got pissed, crashed it, and cooked the "nicked" story to cover his arse. Not the first time, won't be the last. And you can bet that if plod or the insurance investigators get a chance, they'll be looking through CCTV.

[Jon_Targaryen]

The Spruce goose said:

i can't see how it would easiest way is check it the key communicates via gprs. You can get testers.

Which testers?

[anonymous-user]

Jon_Targaryen said:

Which testers?

A spectrum analyzer.

[Jon_Targaryen]

TooMany2cvs said:

In a key they didn't have?

Occam's razor says he got pissed, crashed it, and cooked the "nicked" story to cover his arse. Not the first time, won't be the last. And you can bet that if plod or the insurance investigators get a chance, they'll be looking through CCTV.

There is no CCTV around.

[Jon_Targaryen]

The Spruce goose said:

A spectrum analyzer.

But it is written in any technical article it is possible to modify the key OTA?

[OldGermanHeaps]

Aren't forensic researchers supposed to have at least some knowledge about the subject being researched? Any idiot can post a poorly phrased question on a forum, particularly a non marque specific forum that has probably 2/3 of users who don't know much about how cars actually work beneath the surface other than the ins and outs of leasing or pcp and having a garage do anything dirtier than topping up the screenwash?

[Glasgowrob]

Not quite sure what your looking for OP but there are a number of devices available that bridge the key to car connection over any distance.

I'll assume a few things

Car has keyless start/entry
Owner says keys never left their possession
Insurance have done a data dump which shows data logging a drive which doesn't tally with the owners version of events


2 possibilities

1 the owners in on it

2 the thiefs bridges the key to car for the duration of the journey logged which is strange but not outwity the realms of possibility.

Any more info ie how long was the last journey logged or any other relevant info you care to share.

[ymwoods]

Without going into too many details about how to do it...how it could be done and give the results you're wanting though...

It is possible to have device A put into place near the key picking up keys signal for keyless entry and start. Device B is placed inside the vehicle and perfectly replicates signal sent by key. Device A & B use mobile networks to send and receive data between themselves so distance is not relevant.

Theif A takes car to compound, Theif B then collects leftover device from the house and then both theifs may do their stuff to break car, reprogram, make it disappear etc.

This has happened in the past but it's still unlikely. The key would need to be pretty near to the window/door of the property for the first device to pick up and transmit the key in good enough quality for the car to be ok with the signal. Secondly, the devices need to do a lot of work "on the fly" they do exist, but they are hard to make. If you have the know-how to do this, you can easily just spoof the key for entry then reprogram your own key in seconds on the drive. Lastly, the risk of getting caught is higher as you now have to collect the device after your journey from the house you stole the car from. The occupants of which may have now found the car missing and be hyper-alert to you walking up the drive to collect your box hanging near their window/door...if its not already been found.

[Jon_Targaryen]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Aren't forensic researchers supposed to have at least some knowledge about the subject being researched? Any idiot can post a poorly phrased question on a forum, particularly a non marque specific forum that has probably 2/3 of users who don't know much about how cars actually work beneath the surface other than the ins and outs of leasing or pcp and having a garage do anything dirtier than topping up the screenwash?

I think insulting is not neccessary, don't you think so?

[Jon_Targaryen]

Glasgowrob said:

Not quite sure what your looking for OP but there are a number of devices available that bridge the key to car connection over any distance.

I'll assume a few things

Car has keyless start/entry
Owner says keys never left their possession
Insurance have done a data dump which shows data logging a drive which doesn't tally with the owners version of events


2 possibilities

1 the owners in on it

2 the thiefs bridges the key to car for the duration of the journey logged which is strange but not outwity the realms of possibility.

Any more info ie how long was the last journey logged or any other relevant info you care to share.

Thanks! I'm interested in the second one. How could it be possible? Instrumental needed? Process?

Thanks and regards.

[gareth h]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Aren't forensic researchers supposed to have at least some knowledge about the subject being researched? Any idiot can post a poorly phrased question on a forum, particularly a non marque specific forum that has probably 2/3 of users who don't know much about how cars actually work beneath the surface other than the ins and outs of leasing or pcp and having a garage do anything dirtier than topping up the screenwash?

I agree, I would have thought a minimum level of written English language would have been required to present a forensic case in court.

[TooMany2cvs]

I think there's one assumption being made which is not altogether warranted by the OP's actual posts.

I doubt this even took place in the UK - I suspect Jon's native language is not English, and the UK justice system is irrelevant. The thread is about the technicalities of whether it's possible, and speculation about testimony credibility is not really relevant.