Is engine braking good or bad?
Discussion
BertBert said:
Thanks for proving my point so well there SP. Being a natural control freak, I quite like to influence as much around me as possible. If I can reduce the risk of being rear-ended, then I find that quite a good thing to do. It saves my insurance, saves a lot of hassle and makes me feel superior. Good all round.
I presume you also get all whiny when your insurance goes up when you have a non-fault accident?
Bert
I once bought a Citroen 2CV, a slowish car though a great drive, and the previous owner had fitted an unobtrusive sprung button in parallel with the brake light switch on the master cylinder so he could 'blip' the brake lights if being tailgated, the very opposite of the whiplash fraudsters.I presume you also get all whiny when your insurance goes up when you have a non-fault accident?
Bert
What on earth is a no-fault accident, possibly being struck by lightning? As the German traffic police say, one or more people must always share the blame for every road incident, even the road designer.
Edited by rogerhudson on Saturday 14th December 19:32
BertBert said:
Thanks for proving my point so well there SP. Being a natural control freak, I quite like to influence as much around me as possible. If I can reduce the risk of being rear-ended, then I find that quite a good thing to do. It saves my insurance, saves a lot of hassle and makes me feel superior. Good all round.
I presume you also get all whiny when your insurance goes up when you have a non-fault accident?
Bert
I once bought a Citroen 2CV, a slowish car though a great drive, and the previous owner had fitted an unobtrusive sprung button in parallel with the brake light switch on the master cylinder so he could 'blip' the brake lights if being tailgated, the very opposite of the whiplash fraudsters.I presume you also get all whiny when your insurance goes up when you have a non-fault accident?
Bert
Surely any half-decent driver doesn't need brake lights to see that the car in front is slowing down - the rather obvious giveaway is that the gap is closing
I accept though that on occasion, when being followed too closely by a driver who may NOT be quite as forward-thinking, showing the brake lights rather than simply using engine braking is a useful option
FWIW, when the mood takes me, I'll try ultra-hard not to brake - my fuel consumption always benefits
I accept though that on occasion, when being followed too closely by a driver who may NOT be quite as forward-thinking, showing the brake lights rather than simply using engine braking is a useful option
FWIW, when the mood takes me, I'll try ultra-hard not to brake - my fuel consumption always benefits
BertBert said:
I just love all the super clever advanced drivers who can tell that the car in front is braking just as quickly whether they show brake lights or not. How do you do that?
Bert
Simply get nice and close, and then use the Bonnet Barometer method.Bert
Crunched up and steamy = watch out, they're slowing.
BertBert said:
I just love all the super clever advanced drivers who can tell that the car in front is braking just as quickly whether they show brake lights or not. How do you do that?
Bert
I find that when a car in front is slowing down via engine braking, the gap between me and them gets smaller quite slowly.Bert
When the car in front is braking, even if the brake lights don't come on, the gap between me and them gets smaller more quickly.
Its called perspective and unless you're Father Dougal, its not difficult.
Ah hum. I think what we're really discussing is termed "Defensive Driving", as versus Engine Breaking.
I too drive a classic Land Rover. It has a heavy lump of a 2.5 litre diesel which provides great engine breaking, almost zero accelerations, and a very indifferent mix of disc and drum breakes, which also tend to fade quite quickly. As such, classic Land Rover drivers are practiced at "reading the road ahead", because driving smoothly -- no rapid breaking nor acceleration -- is the only way to effectively drive these brick shapped lumps.
Unfortunately, the modern driver, in their comfy modern car, isn't as aware of constantly thinking ahead, because the engine has loads of acceleration and they've got good breaks with ABS. They're not really thinking about driving or what's going on around them, because they can accelerate easily and stop quickly. So the driving schools no-longer teach about engine breaking.
Ho hum, that's why they get caught out when a Landy slows down without showing its break lights. Indeed, I often go for several weeks without even touching my break pedal. And as for reverse lights: well, who ever heard of a vehicle that could go backwards without showing a reverse light? As such, even Advanced Certified drivers have to adopt Defencive Driving techniques to warn the other road user, who, in all probability, is probably right up their tail pipe that they're slowing. A few quick dabs of the break pedal to say, "wake up, I'm slowing down" is usually enough.
As for engine breaking itself. With modern high-reving engines, the use of the engine's compression to slow down simply doesn't work. So modern driving schools only teach use of the breaks.
Whereas changing down through the gears isn't the same as engine breaking. Engine Breaking is usually in 3rd or 4th gear; NEVER in 1st or 2nd gear, as this can induce a skid. Ask any seasoned Off-road driver: you NEVER use 1st or 2nd to descend a hill (unless you're relying upon Hill Descent Control, else the vehicle will overrun the engine speed and you'll lose control.
For any vehicle with an engine that has the compression to effectively retard road speed, engine breaking is always safer. Whatever mechanical failure may occur, it'll gradually reduce your speed, whereas wet or overheated breaks, or a broken hydraulic pipe, or an icy road makes break breaking more unreliable. Just remember to give the folks behind several flashes of your break lights to wake them up.
As I say, an Advanced Driver isn't someone who does things right him/herself, it's someone who makes allowances for the less competent drivers we share our roads with; and that's called Defencive Driving.
Safe journeys, everyone,
Rick in Aldershot
I too drive a classic Land Rover. It has a heavy lump of a 2.5 litre diesel which provides great engine breaking, almost zero accelerations, and a very indifferent mix of disc and drum breakes, which also tend to fade quite quickly. As such, classic Land Rover drivers are practiced at "reading the road ahead", because driving smoothly -- no rapid breaking nor acceleration -- is the only way to effectively drive these brick shapped lumps.
Unfortunately, the modern driver, in their comfy modern car, isn't as aware of constantly thinking ahead, because the engine has loads of acceleration and they've got good breaks with ABS. They're not really thinking about driving or what's going on around them, because they can accelerate easily and stop quickly. So the driving schools no-longer teach about engine breaking.
Ho hum, that's why they get caught out when a Landy slows down without showing its break lights. Indeed, I often go for several weeks without even touching my break pedal. And as for reverse lights: well, who ever heard of a vehicle that could go backwards without showing a reverse light? As such, even Advanced Certified drivers have to adopt Defencive Driving techniques to warn the other road user, who, in all probability, is probably right up their tail pipe that they're slowing. A few quick dabs of the break pedal to say, "wake up, I'm slowing down" is usually enough.
As for engine breaking itself. With modern high-reving engines, the use of the engine's compression to slow down simply doesn't work. So modern driving schools only teach use of the breaks.
Whereas changing down through the gears isn't the same as engine breaking. Engine Breaking is usually in 3rd or 4th gear; NEVER in 1st or 2nd gear, as this can induce a skid. Ask any seasoned Off-road driver: you NEVER use 1st or 2nd to descend a hill (unless you're relying upon Hill Descent Control, else the vehicle will overrun the engine speed and you'll lose control.
For any vehicle with an engine that has the compression to effectively retard road speed, engine breaking is always safer. Whatever mechanical failure may occur, it'll gradually reduce your speed, whereas wet or overheated breaks, or a broken hydraulic pipe, or an icy road makes break breaking more unreliable. Just remember to give the folks behind several flashes of your break lights to wake them up.
As I say, an Advanced Driver isn't someone who does things right him/herself, it's someone who makes allowances for the less competent drivers we share our roads with; and that's called Defencive Driving.
Safe journeys, everyone,
Rick in Aldershot
Rascallybear said:
Ah hum. I think what we're really discussing is termed "Defensive Driving", as versus Engine Breaking.
I too drive a classic Land Rover. It has a heavy lump of a 2.5 litre diesel which provides great engine breaking, almost zero accelerations, and a very indifferent mix of disc and drum breakes, which also tend to fade quite quickly. As such, classic Land Rover drivers are practiced at "reading the road ahead", because driving smoothly -- no rapid breaking nor acceleration -- is the only way to effectively drive these brick shapped lumps.
Unfortunately, the modern driver, in their comfy modern car, isn't as aware of constantly thinking ahead, because the engine has loads of acceleration and they've got good breaks with ABS. They're not really thinking about driving or what's going on around them, because they can accelerate easily and stop quickly. So the driving schools no-longer teach about engine breaking.
Ho hum, that's why they get caught out when a Landy slows down without showing its break lights. Indeed, I often go for several weeks without even touching my break pedal. And as for reverse lights: well, who ever heard of a vehicle that could go backwards without showing a reverse light? As such, even Advanced Certified drivers have to adopt Defencive Driving techniques to warn the other road user, who, in all probability, is probably right up their tail pipe that they're slowing. A few quick dabs of the break pedal to say, "wake up, I'm slowing down" is usually enough.
As for engine breaking itself. With modern high-reving engines, the use of the engine's compression to slow down simply doesn't work. So modern driving schools only teach use of the breaks.
Whereas changing down through the gears isn't the same as engine breaking. Engine Breaking is usually in 3rd or 4th gear; NEVER in 1st or 2nd gear, as this can induce a skid. Ask any seasoned Off-road driver: you NEVER use 1st or 2nd to descend a hill (unless you're relying upon Hill Descent Control, else the vehicle will overrun the engine speed and you'll lose control.
For any vehicle with an engine that has the compression to effectively retard road speed, engine breaking is always safer. Whatever mechanical failure may occur, it'll gradually reduce your speed, whereas wet or overheated breaks, or a broken hydraulic pipe, or an icy road makes break breaking more unreliable. Just remember to give the folks behind several flashes of your break lights to wake them up.
As I say, an Advanced Driver isn't someone who does things right him/herself, it's someone who makes allowances for the less competent drivers we share our roads with; and that's called Defencive Driving.
Safe journeys, everyone,
Rick in Aldershot
Great first post Rick, but a bit weird. It's 'brakes' by the way if that helps.I too drive a classic Land Rover. It has a heavy lump of a 2.5 litre diesel which provides great engine breaking, almost zero accelerations, and a very indifferent mix of disc and drum breakes, which also tend to fade quite quickly. As such, classic Land Rover drivers are practiced at "reading the road ahead", because driving smoothly -- no rapid breaking nor acceleration -- is the only way to effectively drive these brick shapped lumps.
Unfortunately, the modern driver, in their comfy modern car, isn't as aware of constantly thinking ahead, because the engine has loads of acceleration and they've got good breaks with ABS. They're not really thinking about driving or what's going on around them, because they can accelerate easily and stop quickly. So the driving schools no-longer teach about engine breaking.
Ho hum, that's why they get caught out when a Landy slows down without showing its break lights. Indeed, I often go for several weeks without even touching my break pedal. And as for reverse lights: well, who ever heard of a vehicle that could go backwards without showing a reverse light? As such, even Advanced Certified drivers have to adopt Defencive Driving techniques to warn the other road user, who, in all probability, is probably right up their tail pipe that they're slowing. A few quick dabs of the break pedal to say, "wake up, I'm slowing down" is usually enough.
As for engine breaking itself. With modern high-reving engines, the use of the engine's compression to slow down simply doesn't work. So modern driving schools only teach use of the breaks.
Whereas changing down through the gears isn't the same as engine breaking. Engine Breaking is usually in 3rd or 4th gear; NEVER in 1st or 2nd gear, as this can induce a skid. Ask any seasoned Off-road driver: you NEVER use 1st or 2nd to descend a hill (unless you're relying upon Hill Descent Control, else the vehicle will overrun the engine speed and you'll lose control.
For any vehicle with an engine that has the compression to effectively retard road speed, engine breaking is always safer. Whatever mechanical failure may occur, it'll gradually reduce your speed, whereas wet or overheated breaks, or a broken hydraulic pipe, or an icy road makes break breaking more unreliable. Just remember to give the folks behind several flashes of your break lights to wake them up.
As I say, an Advanced Driver isn't someone who does things right him/herself, it's someone who makes allowances for the less competent drivers we share our roads with; and that's called Defencive Driving.
Safe journeys, everyone,
Rick in Aldershot
Looks like some road users are going to have to change their attitude to brake lights...because of EVs.
Over 18 months now with an eNV200, I use the brakes for coming to a complete stop - other than that I rarely touch them.
I would never rely on other drivers brake lights.
The complaining driver in the first post is a moron who should take some advanced driving lessons with an attitude like that.
Rascallybear....
Us ADI's or at least me suggest "engine braking".....when it is appropriate, ie you want to start slowing ....cause the lights ahead are turning to red, so check mirrors....what is behind? if I engine brake will they notice?......how close are they?.....are they looking at their text messages/passenger/kids in the back?/ shops/price of petrol on the neon sign? will they benefit from a light touch on the pedal?....It can help with fuel economy, sure, but not at the expense of safety.
Then say you were in 6th gear.......engine braking down to 40 mph could result in the engine starting to labour.....depending on gradient of road/ hazard ahead/whats going on behind etc....so then block changing down to 3rd or 4th could help a smother slowing of vehicle, one would then want to be in the correct gear to "go" as well if situation changes ahead.
Information, position, speed ,gear, acceleration are the corner stones of advanced driving
so for the OP Information = looking in his mirrors, noting how close is vehicle behind, where is the sun? can he see my brake lights? are my old Land Rover lights clean and actually working? are they so dim not easy to see? Would driver behind benefit from a brake light or can he see I am slowing using my gears?
My road position on the road is that giving information to other road users what I am doing?
Is my road position correct for what I want to do?
Speed am i slowing the vehicle by using the gears?
Would brakes be better and more sympathetic to the vehicle and other road users?
Have I got myself into the correct gear for the speed I am now at? (consider block changing)
Do I continue to slow using the engine?, or brakes? can I accelerate in the gear I am now in for the speed I am now travelling at?
every road situation is different.....drive to what you can see and always defensively mindful that others are not always on the same wavelength of yourself
Us ADI's or at least me suggest "engine braking".....when it is appropriate, ie you want to start slowing ....cause the lights ahead are turning to red, so check mirrors....what is behind? if I engine brake will they notice?......how close are they?.....are they looking at their text messages/passenger/kids in the back?/ shops/price of petrol on the neon sign? will they benefit from a light touch on the pedal?....It can help with fuel economy, sure, but not at the expense of safety.
Then say you were in 6th gear.......engine braking down to 40 mph could result in the engine starting to labour.....depending on gradient of road/ hazard ahead/whats going on behind etc....so then block changing down to 3rd or 4th could help a smother slowing of vehicle, one would then want to be in the correct gear to "go" as well if situation changes ahead.
Information, position, speed ,gear, acceleration are the corner stones of advanced driving
so for the OP Information = looking in his mirrors, noting how close is vehicle behind, where is the sun? can he see my brake lights? are my old Land Rover lights clean and actually working? are they so dim not easy to see? Would driver behind benefit from a brake light or can he see I am slowing using my gears?
My road position on the road is that giving information to other road users what I am doing?
Is my road position correct for what I want to do?
Speed am i slowing the vehicle by using the gears?
Would brakes be better and more sympathetic to the vehicle and other road users?
Have I got myself into the correct gear for the speed I am now at? (consider block changing)
Do I continue to slow using the engine?, or brakes? can I accelerate in the gear I am now in for the speed I am now travelling at?
every road situation is different.....drive to what you can see and always defensively mindful that others are not always on the same wavelength of yourself
Good morning,
I'm quite a fan of engine braking to be honest. If I'm on a twisty road, giving it a bit of beans, then I'm more likely to use engine braking, as I've found it upsets the car (and bike) less, causes less violent weight transfer and generally enables smoother progress.
And generally on motorways/duel carriageways/traffic, I try and only use the brakes if I am actually planing on stopping, and not use brakes to modulate speed.
When I did my bikesafe course, I hardly used the brakes at all on the twisty ride. The police officer was impressed, to the point where he said he wasn't sure if my brake light was broken for a while because I had just used judgement to determine how fast I could go, how far I could see ahead etc. I've not noticed any wear with any of my vehicles by using this technique
I'm quite a fan of engine braking to be honest. If I'm on a twisty road, giving it a bit of beans, then I'm more likely to use engine braking, as I've found it upsets the car (and bike) less, causes less violent weight transfer and generally enables smoother progress.
And generally on motorways/duel carriageways/traffic, I try and only use the brakes if I am actually planing on stopping, and not use brakes to modulate speed.
When I did my bikesafe course, I hardly used the brakes at all on the twisty ride. The police officer was impressed, to the point where he said he wasn't sure if my brake light was broken for a while because I had just used judgement to determine how fast I could go, how far I could see ahead etc. I've not noticed any wear with any of my vehicles by using this technique
7mike said:
Nigel_O said:
Surely any half-decent driver doesn't need brake lights to see that the car in front is slowing down -
I find brake lights quite useful as they appear in the peripheral vision of those far too engrossed in checking Facebook. Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff