4 wheel drive & the real world
Discussion
Scuffers said:
No, i haven't.
I have driven mid engined 2wd cars with somewhat higher p/w ratios, and i do actually know how to drive.
Look, the point is matteyboy turns up saying a p1 would be this and that, but as usual, unable to back it up.
All that's needed now is somebody tonstartvquoting top gear track times!
You've got your Mattyboys mixed up. That me not Max...I have driven mid engined 2wd cars with somewhat higher p/w ratios, and i do actually know how to drive.
Look, the point is matteyboy turns up saying a p1 would be this and that, but as usual, unable to back it up.
All that's needed now is somebody tonstartvquoting top gear track times!
Edited by Scuffers on Monday 27th January 21:45
Output Flange said:
Scuffers said:
So, maybe you can get him to honour the challenge he made then?
As this is clearly not going happen, it's somewhat wasted words...
This is obvious though, right? Or did you really think he was about to rock up in c.£1m of someone else's hypercar to prove a point to you?As this is clearly not going happen, it's somewhat wasted words...
He offered to take up the challenge, which you now accept was never going to happen.
Like i said, all very PH these days.
Who me said:
skyrover said:
It makes next to bugger all difference unless it snows.
Answer to that question ,is "Learn to drive in snow" = think about your driving techniques. Light feet and anticipation are the answer. Imagine you are driving on non treated inclines where the road is only a foot or so wider than your car.Learn skid avoidance and skid combat driving. I learned this in ancient RWD cars on single track roads. I learned this over 40 years ago. Today in a FWD car with summer tyres my only problem is the folks that CAN'T /HAVEN'T LEARNT to drive in those conditions.
Last time it snowed and it ground the country to a halt I did leave my MX-5 on the drive and took my Land Rover out. Left it in RWD (as it's a Series IIA it's 2wd as standard) and just carried on. The year before I had an old Ford Escort that carried on regardless with whatever was thrown at it.
Mate had a Ford Ranger pickup (again RWD) with chains on for the back o' beyond lane he lived on, took it steady and carried on as easily as the Landie in 4WD.
I could give more examples of where it doesn't matter but I've rambled on enough...
The pedals aren't on and off switches.
Edit to fix quotes, Who Me ?'s question mark stuffed the quote format :P
Edited by carmadgaz on Monday 27th January 22:28
Have to say I much prefer the way my A6 Quattro drives compared to front wheel drive ones of the same age, wet or dry its very noticeable when you boot it and the car isn't straight, it's a proper TorSen old one though. Most noticeable is T junctions in poor conditions, 4wd boot it car goes exactly where you point it no wheel spin just lunges forward.
I drove a Haldex A3, yes it may have well been FWD so does depend how it's implemented.
I drove a Haldex A3, yes it may have well been FWD so does depend how it's implemented.
JD said:
I am constantly amazed how magic certain people believe 4WD to be.
That someone can believe a barge of an Audi would be faster than the fastest road going car around, simply because of a little rain is staggering.
Those engineers have missed a trick not fitting it with 4WD
Wonder why the WRC engineers use 4WD? Maybe they thought on tight, wet, muddy, bumpy roads it would be quicker than 2WD?That someone can believe a barge of an Audi would be faster than the fastest road going car around, simply because of a little rain is staggering.
Those engineers have missed a trick not fitting it with 4WD
Having owned both a 280bhp Subaru (albeit a Legacy GTB and not an Impreza STi) and currently owning a M135i, I think I'm qualified to comment here.
The BMW has more power, better power delivery, more accomplished suspension and mega-sticky cup tyres (vs. non-cup tyres as standard on the Subaru). On a typical Welsh B-road like this one (which I've driven many times), the BMW has plenty of room to have the occasional extra wiggle, and enough straight lines to make up any ground lost on the super-tight nadgery bits (even in the wet).
On a tighter, single-track C/D road with lots of mud and a broken surface, the Subaru would take the lead, but you'd be taking some uncomfortable risks to prove it...
The BMW has more power, better power delivery, more accomplished suspension and mega-sticky cup tyres (vs. non-cup tyres as standard on the Subaru). On a typical Welsh B-road like this one (which I've driven many times), the BMW has plenty of room to have the occasional extra wiggle, and enough straight lines to make up any ground lost on the super-tight nadgery bits (even in the wet).
On a tighter, single-track C/D road with lots of mud and a broken surface, the Subaru would take the lead, but you'd be taking some uncomfortable risks to prove it...
GHW said:
Having owned both a 280bhp Subaru (albeit a Legacy GTB and not an Impreza STi) and currently owning a M135i, I think I'm qualified to comment here.
The BMW has more power, better power delivery, more accomplished suspension and mega-sticky cup tyres (vs. non-cup tyres as standard on the Subaru). On a typical Welsh B-road like this one (which I've driven many times), the BMW has plenty of room to have the occasional extra wiggle, and enough straight lines to make up any ground lost on the super-tight nadgery bits (even in the wet).
On a tighter, single-track C/D road with lots of mud and a broken surface, the Subaru would take the lead, but you'd be taking some uncomfortable risks to prove it...
The BMW has more power, better power delivery, more accomplished suspension and mega-sticky cup tyres (vs. non-cup tyres as standard on the Subaru). On a typical Welsh B-road like this one (which I've driven many times), the BMW has plenty of room to have the occasional extra wiggle, and enough straight lines to make up any ground lost on the super-tight nadgery bits (even in the wet).
On a tighter, single-track C/D road with lots of mud and a broken surface, the Subaru would take the lead, but you'd be taking some uncomfortable risks to prove it...
thank you
I think if you are being honest, a good spec four wheel drive car such as the sti or evo in the wet on a country road will be extremely hard to beat. Did Chris Harris not say something similar in his review of the A45. The limiting factor for the P1 is it's size, width of tyres and road clearance.
Heaveho said:
As a person who is perfectly prepared to admit on an open forum to not being a driving God, liking fwd if it's in a car that displays that formats strengths ( Corrado VR6 springs to mind ), and who is now on his second long term 4wd sports saloon ( 10 years in the current one, Evo 8 ), it's maybe a fair suggestion that people stick to what they feel comfortable with, without resorting to criticising others choices and abilities. I'm sure rwd is immense fun in the right hands, not mine though, didn't grow up with it, and am not entirely comfortable trying to get to know it on the road.
The people accusing 4wd of being boring perhaps want to attempt a spirited drive across a country road of their choosing in an Evo before drawing that conclusion, I think it's a little misguided. I'm not arguing that it'll be the fastest thing point to point, just that It'll do exactly what you want of it, and make extraordinarily fast, fun progress if you ask it the right questions.
Quoted since it's one of the few sensible posts on topic and I agree. The people accusing 4wd of being boring perhaps want to attempt a spirited drive across a country road of their choosing in an Evo before drawing that conclusion, I think it's a little misguided. I'm not arguing that it'll be the fastest thing point to point, just that It'll do exactly what you want of it, and make extraordinarily fast, fun progress if you ask it the right questions.
Edited by Heaveho on Monday 27th January 22:14
For the vast majority 4wd does instill a bit of extra confidence, even more so in wet or low grip situations. To be critical of those who prefer this feeling is ridiculous but I do appreciate the view that too many people run the risk of being complacent and over estimating 4wd capabilities.
If you are one of the many people who are not overly experienced with rwd then yes it's inherent driving characteristics can catch you out if you mess things up. That is not to say that in a 4wd or FWD car you won't get it into a mess but most people's natural reactions (braking/keep steering) stand a better chance of helping rather than in RWD case making things worse...
At Rally GB last year, we got directed to the emergency overflow carpark - a soaking wet farmers field on the side of a hill. Oh how we laughed as my 4WD "hairdresser" mk1 TT found its way to the top of the hill without even noticing, and sat there watching the BMWs standing still, wheels-a-spinning.
You can pull a fuse on the TT to turn off the Haldex and disable the ESP. Floor it in the wet and when the turbo kicks in it's all front wheel drive wheelspin.
So if you live in Manchester or a field, 4WD is handy, but I've managed to survive 22 years of driving without dying, despite owning a mix of automotive drivetrains wrapped in metal.
Oh, and I may have dreamt this, but I'm sure I read somewhere about a 4WD M135i! I know you can buy other 4WD 1 series.
You can pull a fuse on the TT to turn off the Haldex and disable the ESP. Floor it in the wet and when the turbo kicks in it's all front wheel drive wheelspin.
So if you live in Manchester or a field, 4WD is handy, but I've managed to survive 22 years of driving without dying, despite owning a mix of automotive drivetrains wrapped in metal.
Oh, and I may have dreamt this, but I'm sure I read somewhere about a 4WD M135i! I know you can buy other 4WD 1 series.
Edited by Emeye on Monday 27th January 22:42
I think choice of tyres makes almost as much difference as drivetrain for the majority of people.
Sorry to bring this down to something much more mundane, but it's the best comparison possible: The 2wd and 4wd versions of the Skoda Yeti. It's not exactly the PH-stuff-of-dreams but the comparison weeds out a lot of variables.
This video focuses on winter tyres (sorry, I know there's a relevant thread!) but it still makes for interesting viewing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l2cMlNRX_A
I promise not to claim that a Yeti will out-corner a P1 in the wet.
Sorry to bring this down to something much more mundane, but it's the best comparison possible: The 2wd and 4wd versions of the Skoda Yeti. It's not exactly the PH-stuff-of-dreams but the comparison weeds out a lot of variables.
This video focuses on winter tyres (sorry, I know there's a relevant thread!) but it still makes for interesting viewing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l2cMlNRX_A
I promise not to claim that a Yeti will out-corner a P1 in the wet.
What you need is a 4wd car with enough grunt and an accommodating system that allows an improvement in grip with the ability to spin all four wheels and go a bit sideways, Evos do that quite well but a lot of 4wd cars do traction nicely but dont major on fun,
The ability to hoof out of a junction without having to worry about traction is useful but not essential, of course you can drive a 2wd car so it isn't an issue but a 4wd system gives you options to take gaps that you may leave in a 2wd car in case you end up in a flurry of wheelspin and/or traction control, despite driving god status nobody can pull out onto a wet junction in a 2wd as fast as a 4wd with the same power, its physics, being pushed and pulled, will work better in low grip situations the pushed or pulled.
The ability to hoof out of a junction without having to worry about traction is useful but not essential, of course you can drive a 2wd car so it isn't an issue but a 4wd system gives you options to take gaps that you may leave in a 2wd car in case you end up in a flurry of wheelspin and/or traction control, despite driving god status nobody can pull out onto a wet junction in a 2wd as fast as a 4wd with the same power, its physics, being pushed and pulled, will work better in low grip situations the pushed or pulled.
CGJJ said:
Oh and as for the person who offered up the P1,yeah alright mate,see you on a Wiltshire to Oxfordshire dash in January and that P1 will end up in a ditch.
I'd be surprised if it would physically fit down some of the roads I like to drive on..................that's the other problem not generally acknowledged, the physical size of some of the quick exotics, regardless of drivetrain layout, hardly lend themselves to bumpy country road hooning. In that respect, bring your driven wheels of choice and as much horsepower as you can carry, a road like that is a great leveller. Even a Nissan GT-R would be hamstrung some of the time, it's often not the drivetrain layout that's the limiting factor, just the amount of space needed to deploy the advantage. blearyeyedboy said:
Sorry to bring this down to something much more mundane, but it's the best comparison possible: The 2wd and 4wd versions of the Skoda Yeti. It's not exactly the PH-stuff-of-dreams but the comparison weeds out a lot of variables.
Performance Car magazine did a similar 2wd vs 4wd test back in the 90s - they compared the 2wd and 4wd versions of the E34 525i.Motor mag also did similar with the E30 325i/325ix
Heaveho said:
CGJJ said:
Oh and as for the person who offered up the P1,yeah alright mate,see you on a Wiltshire to Oxfordshire dash in January and that P1 will end up in a ditch.
I'd be surprised if it would physically fit down some of the roads I like to drive on..................that's the other problem not generally acknowledged, the physical size of some of the quick exotics, regardless of drivetrain layout, hardly lend themselves to bumpy country road hooning. In that respect, bring your driven wheels of choice and as much horsepower as you can carry, a road like that is a great leveller. Even a Nissan GT-R would be hamstrung some of the time, it's often not the drivetrain layout that's the limiting factor, just the amount of space needed to deploy the advantage. Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff