Differences between mainland Europe & UK - roads and drivers
Discussion
Moonhawk said:
monamimate said:
I agree with A&B roads and m'way differences in driving, in general terms.
Indeed, driver training in Austria, France, Belgium (and probably others) includes motorway driving. Very sensible and it shows on the road
I do find it a little odd that we don't have that in the UK. Indeed, driver training in Austria, France, Belgium (and probably others) includes motorway driving. Very sensible and it shows on the road
But I also find it odd that despite the apparently better driver training - all of those countries have a higher fatality rate on their roads compared to the UK.
As others have pointed out - there is more than a hint of "rose tint" when viewing driving on the continent.
The UK system is let down a little by not including m'way driving during training, but otherwise seems well-designed to develop safer drivers (or at least it was back in the 70s when I took my test...)
monamimate said:
Moonhawk said:
monamimate said:
I agree with A&B roads and m'way differences in driving, in general terms.
Indeed, driver training in Austria, France, Belgium (and probably others) includes motorway driving. Very sensible and it shows on the road
I do find it a little odd that we don't have that in the UK. Indeed, driver training in Austria, France, Belgium (and probably others) includes motorway driving. Very sensible and it shows on the road
But I also find it odd that despite the apparently better driver training - all of those countries have a higher fatality rate on their roads compared to the UK.
As others have pointed out - there is more than a hint of "rose tint" when viewing driving on the continent.
The UK system is let down a little by not including m'way driving during training, but otherwise seems well-designed to develop safer drivers (or at least it was back in the 70s when I took my test...)
I think the test and teaching in the UK are both good, the problem seems to be that people just abandon and/or forget things once they've passed. This morning on my 45 minute commute into work I didn't see one driver using "mirror signal manouvre", most drivers at T junctions didn't position their cars correctly for turning left and right, and I saw quite a number of drivers (at least 10), failing to indicate at all, including the guy I followed for the last mile into work - he changed motorway lanes, left the motorway, negotiated two roundabouts and one junction without using an indicator once - that's common, or almost normal around here.
What problems do people think would be mitigated if motorway driving tuition was mandated?
Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.
Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.
waremark said:
What problems do people think would be mitigated if motorway driving tuition was mandated?
Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.
Would such an introduction not raise the general standard of Mway driving? If more drivers drive in a certain way, would doing so encourage others to follow suit? Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.
tgr said:
RobM77 said:
in Germany it seemed commonplace to pull out in front of other drivers on single carriageway roads causing them to slow (weirdly I didn't see this in other countries). I never saw anyone flash or get irritated when this happened, it just seemed normal.
This is, as someone else pointed out, priorite a droite. I came across it in Germany twenty years ago and couldn't understand how such a sensible lot could come up with something so daft. I think the reasoning could be to do with the calming effect it has on speeds in urban areasSee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_righ...
ZedLeppelin said:
waremark said:
What problems do people think would be mitigated if motorway driving tuition was mandated?
Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.
Would such an introduction not raise the general standard of Mway driving? If more drivers drive in a certain way, would doing so encourage others to follow suit? Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.
I wish we had more good driving practice ads on TV to reach experienced drivers, and more marked police cars on motorways to remind them to behave. I don't see a need to take learners on motorways.
waremark said:
ZedLeppelin said:
waremark said:
What problems do people think would be mitigated if motorway driving tuition was mandated?
Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.
Would such an introduction not raise the general standard of Mway driving? If more drivers drive in a certain way, would doing so encourage others to follow suit? Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.
I wish we had more good driving practice ads on TV to reach experienced drivers, and more marked police cars on motorways to remind them to behave. I don't see a need to take learners on motorways.
As I say above, motorway driving, night driving and country lane driving (or town driving for us country folk!) aren't obligated on the test, but there would be fairly major practical obstacles to overcome to include them and even if they were included, I suspect nobody would heed any of the advice imparted anyway, because as I say above, most people just forget everything after a couple of years anyway. What we badly need is regular re-testing, even if it's just a quick theory test, and in advance of that, we need a return of road safety adverts to our screens.Yesterday on my drive to work it was absolutely lashing it down with rain and visibility was pretty terrible. I reckon about a fifth of cars that I saw didn't have any lights on and were therefore almost invisible when more than about 50m away. As usual, about a quarter of people didn't indicate at all when indication was necessary, and all of the remaining three quarters of drivers indicated after they'd started their manoeuvre, not beforehand to warn people (are people really that stupid? What's the point of indicating when you're halfway across a lane?). With such poor driving standards, it'd come as no surprise if I say that on that commute yesterday morning I spent two hours sat on a dual carriageway after a very nasty accident closed the road ahead of me (I know I shouldn't speculate as to the reason for the accident, but as we all know, poor driving standards do tend to lead to more accidents, so my point remains). Road safety is a serious subject, and I find it bewildering that the government seemingly ignore it when so much could be done to improve driving standards - lowering people's speed (all they seem to want to do) is just an easy way out - preventing accidents in the first place would be very welcome!
The strange thing about French drivers is that while they have excellent lane discipline on 2-lane motorways (to the point of sometimes pulling in rather sharper than I would like!), it all goes to pot on a 3-lane motorway, where the discipline is as bad as here!
Driving down to the Alps, I found it was the Belgian and Swiss drivers who were the most aggressive, and with the worst lane discipline. (If there was an idiot hogging the outside lane, closer inspection would usually reveal Belgian, Swiss or British plates!)
They don't pull out to make room for you when merging, but neither do they expect you to do so. In fact it confuses them if you do. And if you find yourself in Lane 1 with somebody trying to join, you need not fear he will drive into you.
Off the motorway, I found a lot more dubious driving. Much faster; people pull out into very small gaps (particularly on roundabouts) and cut corners on winding roads. (That's something I do, but only when I can see it's clear, and I at least make sure I'm fully on my side of the centre line to pass oncoming traffic!)
Also speeding is rife, but oddly the speeding drivers behind me didn't seem aggressive when I stuck to the 90/ 70/ 50 and 30 kph limits. Kept their distance, and then overtook quite reasonably and sailed into the sunset.
I did find the temporary 90/ 70/ 50 limits (on corners and descents) to be worth sticking to; they're not crying wolf!
Having driven down through France, I came back through Luxembourg > Belgium > Netherlands, and regretted it immediately. Terrible motorways in Belgium, heavy traffic, poor signage, aggressive driving.
Driving down to the Alps, I found it was the Belgian and Swiss drivers who were the most aggressive, and with the worst lane discipline. (If there was an idiot hogging the outside lane, closer inspection would usually reveal Belgian, Swiss or British plates!)
They don't pull out to make room for you when merging, but neither do they expect you to do so. In fact it confuses them if you do. And if you find yourself in Lane 1 with somebody trying to join, you need not fear he will drive into you.
Off the motorway, I found a lot more dubious driving. Much faster; people pull out into very small gaps (particularly on roundabouts) and cut corners on winding roads. (That's something I do, but only when I can see it's clear, and I at least make sure I'm fully on my side of the centre line to pass oncoming traffic!)
Also speeding is rife, but oddly the speeding drivers behind me didn't seem aggressive when I stuck to the 90/ 70/ 50 and 30 kph limits. Kept their distance, and then overtook quite reasonably and sailed into the sunset.
I did find the temporary 90/ 70/ 50 limits (on corners and descents) to be worth sticking to; they're not crying wolf!
Having driven down through France, I came back through Luxembourg > Belgium > Netherlands, and regretted it immediately. Terrible motorways in Belgium, heavy traffic, poor signage, aggressive driving.
I spend far too much driving / riding in the UK and Europe.
re: broken white lines that hum, mostly in Germany. This is appearing on some UK roads.
If you do witness the aftermath of an autobahn crash, it will be the same as the UK, massive delays, road closures etc.
I prefer cones in road works compared to those unforgiving close fitting temporary metal barriers.
Any road that has three lanes will end up being the same as the UK, people are people. Over the past 10 years the keep right discipline has been reduced massively and trucks doing the elephant racing are no different.
I find people who drive on mainland for a holiday see a very thin view of the day-to-day, its no worse nor better than the UK in standards IME. Belgians are as a rule though, crap, no matter where they are. They do have some new motorways which are very good, the ones running to LUX and DE are well used and potholed, but I cannot complain when the UK's network is a disgrace, especially the truck rutted Lane 1.
I do find autobahns on the unrestricted sections relaxing though, in the same way that years ago cruising at 100-120 in France was in the same manner. These days I've given up on French autoroutes they're too slow for a country the size of France, especially when they're charging you on top.
The only major difference, is the road quality and their ability to create a flat surface which in England is seemingly impossible. If you see a German motorway being built, resurfaced you'll see why, they build it on top of a flat concrete road and don't do a lane at a time, they do the whole side.
Having said that, I've travelled across lumpy roads everywhere but every time I return to the UK, my suspension feels 'broken' compared to the mainland and I hate driving on the left, clockwise roundabouts are more natural.
re: broken white lines that hum, mostly in Germany. This is appearing on some UK roads.
If you do witness the aftermath of an autobahn crash, it will be the same as the UK, massive delays, road closures etc.
I prefer cones in road works compared to those unforgiving close fitting temporary metal barriers.
Any road that has three lanes will end up being the same as the UK, people are people. Over the past 10 years the keep right discipline has been reduced massively and trucks doing the elephant racing are no different.
I find people who drive on mainland for a holiday see a very thin view of the day-to-day, its no worse nor better than the UK in standards IME. Belgians are as a rule though, crap, no matter where they are. They do have some new motorways which are very good, the ones running to LUX and DE are well used and potholed, but I cannot complain when the UK's network is a disgrace, especially the truck rutted Lane 1.
I do find autobahns on the unrestricted sections relaxing though, in the same way that years ago cruising at 100-120 in France was in the same manner. These days I've given up on French autoroutes they're too slow for a country the size of France, especially when they're charging you on top.
The only major difference, is the road quality and their ability to create a flat surface which in England is seemingly impossible. If you see a German motorway being built, resurfaced you'll see why, they build it on top of a flat concrete road and don't do a lane at a time, they do the whole side.
Having said that, I've travelled across lumpy roads everywhere but every time I return to the UK, my suspension feels 'broken' compared to the mainland and I hate driving on the left, clockwise roundabouts are more natural.
Edited by boxedin on Friday 28th August 17:55
Alex said:
And the Belgian police treat motorists as mobile cashpoints.
+1 - the only time I've intentionally outrun a police car was when the blue lights came on a little way behind me one night as I headed for the tunnel at an, ah, healthy lick. I was about 3km from the French border at that point, so just legged it.Overall, and on the basis of extensive experience in car and on bike, I rate the Belgians as the equal worst drivers in Northern Europe, alongside the British. I don't have a problem with Autobahns, as most of them are so crowded that there's not often much chance to let rip safely so I just keep out the way and womble along. If I really want to make progress, I'll come South through Eastern France where the Autoroutes are better, quieter and don't have quite the same police presence as the major North-South routes.
Alex said:
And the Belgian police treat motorists as mobile cashpoints.
As I have lived here for more than 20 years and only been fined twice (fairly, I was seriously exceeding the speed limit both times), I rather wonder how you drive to have been bothered so much by the police here... Not the experience of locals at all.The bigger wider roads on the mainland of Europe, are often very quiet, so are a pleasure to drive on. Mostly.
When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.
You can go years in the UK without seeing some of the suicidal, erratic other worldly behaviours of the Belgians!
In the UK, we mostly drive as if we're in a queue. That's mostly because we are!
That's why we see poor attitudes displayed often toward drivers who overtake. It's not that any one particular pass was inconsiderate or dangerous, but more a conditioning, that you've taken their space in the line.
Poor lane discipline is the same everywhere when it's busy! Nobody wants to move over, as they'll just be another car length from where they're going!
That said, 50% of the time I've had problems on the Autobahns, it's a UK driver, sticking steadfastly to the left lane for mile after mile, even with 1/2 mile gaps to their right.
Sometimes I wish I was in a Mad Max film :-)
When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.
You can go years in the UK without seeing some of the suicidal, erratic other worldly behaviours of the Belgians!
In the UK, we mostly drive as if we're in a queue. That's mostly because we are!
That's why we see poor attitudes displayed often toward drivers who overtake. It's not that any one particular pass was inconsiderate or dangerous, but more a conditioning, that you've taken their space in the line.
Poor lane discipline is the same everywhere when it's busy! Nobody wants to move over, as they'll just be another car length from where they're going!
That said, 50% of the time I've had problems on the Autobahns, it's a UK driver, sticking steadfastly to the left lane for mile after mile, even with 1/2 mile gaps to their right.
Sometimes I wish I was in a Mad Max film :-)
Technomad said:
The only time I've intentionally outrun a police car was when the blue lights came on a little way behind me one night as I headed for the tunnel at an, ah, healthy lick. I was about 3km from the French border at that point, so just legged it.
That's OK, as if it really was intentional, then it's still classed as advanced driving 
RobM77 said:
Red 5 said:
When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.
I've never found that, not even in Belgium! 
UK drivers are mostly completely incompetent and often extremely aggressive as well.
That person being aggressive and creating their own little traffic battle!
Mostly you can see what they're doing.
In Belgium though, there's a strange drone like tailgating and bunching of vehicles. One or more of the drivers can wake up at any moment and perform an unsignalled lane change akin to the elk test in severity!
There just seems to be greater uniformity in the galactic incompetence, so you can be dive bombed from seemingly impossible positions at any time.
Red 5 said:
RobM77 said:
Red 5 said:
When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.
I've never found that, not even in Belgium! UK drivers are mostly completely incompetent and often extremely aggressive as well.That person being aggressive and creating their own little traffic battle!
Mostly you can see what they're doing.
In Belgium though, there's a strange drone like tailgating and bunching of vehicles. One or more of the drivers can wake up at any moment and perform an unsignalled lane change akin to the elk test in severity!
There just seems to be greater uniformity in the galactic incompetence, so you can be dive bombed from seemingly impossible positions at any time.
With regard to what you say about the UK, yes, I totally agree. I commute on the A34 and you can guarantee that every time there's a queue of people overtaking a lorry that someone's going to dive up the inside at a 30mph closing speed and try and cut in. I really mean that you can guarantee it; it happens virtually every time! Approximately once a month there's a serious accident that causes miles of tailbacks. Last month the road was closed with me sat on it stationary from 8am till nearly 11am. Perhaps I've been lucky, but after working (Germany) and holidaying (Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland) in mainland Europe over the years I think I've only been stuck in one or two hold ups like that. On our recent 2,000 mile road trip through all the aforementioned countries we had no hold ups at all, but on returning to the UK we got stuck in two major queues due to accidents. Our neighbours coincidentally took a similar holiday and had a similar experience - no accidents causing hold ups until they got back here in the UK.
This month's Evo have an editorial piece by Richard Porter on an element of this subject: overtaking. He describes how in Portugal (where he's just spent his holidays), overtaking is apparently seen as a normal part of driving, but in the UK it is often met with aggression and anger. Richard's piece struck a chord with me, as coincidentally last night I was coming home late when I chanced upon a van driving at 30mph in a 60mph limit. I did the usual drill and overtook him cleanly and without fuss, at which point he suddenly found a burst of speed (and his main beam) and tailgated me for the following mile or two. He then proceeded to follow me, even though I double backed on myself (to find out whether he was following me or not) 
flashing his lights and giving me long bursts of main beam. Eventually he got bored, turned off, and I continued upon my way. I must have performed countless overtaking manoeuvres abroad and I've never once been flashed or hooted, let alone followed by some pyscho presumably intent on kicking my head in for daring to overtake him.
flashing his lights and giving me long bursts of main beam. Eventually he got bored, turned off, and I continued upon my way. I must have performed countless overtaking manoeuvres abroad and I've never once been flashed or hooted, let alone followed by some pyscho presumably intent on kicking my head in for daring to overtake him.Portugal is not a role model.... yes they overtake a lot, but their risk assessment of on-coming traffic and how they are going to cut back in again is frightening.
And when it rains in the Algarve it's not unusual to see several crashed cars in just a few miles of driving. combination of bravado, sand on the roads and lack of ESC. They're not even unfamiliar with rain (getting twice as much as London btw).
Statistically they're not good, though i believe the Dominican Republic is even worse.
And when it rains in the Algarve it's not unusual to see several crashed cars in just a few miles of driving. combination of bravado, sand on the roads and lack of ESC. They're not even unfamiliar with rain (getting twice as much as London btw).
Statistically they're not good, though i believe the Dominican Republic is even worse.
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