Is changing down through the gears a bad habit
Discussion
Soups....your about right....changing gear and turning, or braking and turning at the same time is not ideal....especially accelerating and turning at the same time.....only the other day i saw an MX5 accelerate off a roundabout....how I grinned as I saw his face when he span around......there is always a grip trade off.....if it is wet/icy it can be worst. having two hands on the wheel is always better for control when turning
ORD said:
No. It does. Using the clutch slip instead of rev matching is bad driving. It shows a lack of skill and a disregard for the components. If the standard is 'No worse than him next door', fair enough, but the OP wants to be a good driver, not just 'Not Terrible'.
The trouble is that you've been suckered by the inputs brigade. The testable set of inputs designed for mediocre plod drivers to get them all driving testably the same. No thought to outcomes in specific circumstances at all. Mind you even Roadcraft bows to safety above dogma.BertBert said:
The trouble is that you've been suckered by the inputs brigade. The testable set of inputs designed for mediocre plod drivers to get them all driving testably the same. No thought to outcomes in specific circumstances at all. ...
What do you mean by "the inputs brigade" ? People who say "if you do this (or even worse, "you must do this") to achieve a result, rather than "here's the result and the ends to the means are irrelevant ? To me, the ends are a safe, progressive drive - the inputs I use to (try to) make it smooth and mechanically sympathetic are a part of that.And as for "getting plod drivers to get them all driving testably the same" - unfortunately society demands that people flinging cars when using exemptions are safer, so they're testably safer than your average driver, and there has to be a commonality in the training to make it repeatable and auditable so the Man On The Clapham Omnibus can have reasonable assurance that a police driver on a shout is quite unlikely to prang.
Edited to add - when it comes to gear changing, I'll aim for a single gearchange for a hazard. But it's not my be all and end all. If I cock up or the situation changes so my plan has to change, I'll do more. But the less I wiggle the gear stick, the more time my hand is free to steer, tune the radio, or pick my nose.
In regards to the OP, I would absolutely gauge it on the situation.
Generally I would slow using the brakes then select the correct gear for moving off. On occasions when I've just released the accelerator and slows down to almost the right speed, I'd rev match and drop down to the relevant gear. I suppose an element of engine braking is handy as it may just slow me down that bit more but I'll stick with brakes in the main part.
Generally I would slow using the brakes then select the correct gear for moving off. On occasions when I've just released the accelerator and slows down to almost the right speed, I'd rev match and drop down to the relevant gear. I suppose an element of engine braking is handy as it may just slow me down that bit more but I'll stick with brakes in the main part.
I was taught to drive by my father who was an HGV driver before the war. He always said be in the right place at the right speed in the right gear, however that advice was based on a 20 ton wagon with 5 ton brakes where getting it wrong on long descent could be fatal. I do still drive like that most of the time and have got 180k miles on the original clutch in the Fiat. Of course you don't routinely need engine braking in a modern car but my car my fuel bill and I prefer to drive that way. Following some of the advanced driving techniques noted above you can rev match use the gearbox and still get good fuel usage.
When I was twenty one,thirty three years ago! I went on an advanced driving course with an ex traffic cop.
He said brakes are used for slowing down- none of this going down the gears rubbish!
I went on to pass my advanced driving test and became a driving instructor.
I heel and toe all the time,it just makes you a smoother and more flowing
driver.I do track days in my lotus and you MUST H+T to drive smoothly!
He said brakes are used for slowing down- none of this going down the gears rubbish!
I went on to pass my advanced driving test and became a driving instructor.
I heel and toe all the time,it just makes you a smoother and more flowing
driver.I do track days in my lotus and you MUST H+T to drive smoothly!
I was taught to change down going into a bend as it helped the car corner i.e. oversteer. I suspect that this was true for the cars my father drove which had rear wheel drive and cross ply tyres such as the pre-war ford pop. The problem is that on modern front wheel drive cars engine breaking into a bend can be disastrous. I am trying to train myself out of it because on two occasions I have had cars simply plow straight on. Luckily both times I was going quite slowly and nowhere near the limit so it was easily recoverable but it does show that this is a bad practice with modern cars.
GT6k said:
I was taught to change down going into a bend as it helped the car corner i.e. oversteer. I suspect that this was true for the cars my father drove which had rear wheel drive and cross ply tyres such as the pre-war ford pop. The problem is that on modern front wheel drive cars engine breaking into a bend can be disastrous. I am trying to train myself out of it because on two occasions I have had cars simply plow straight on. Luckily both times I was going quite slowly and nowhere near the limit so it was easily recoverable but it does show that this is a bad practice with modern cars.
That sounds very odd, most modern cars are biased towards under steer, however light braking on the front should reduce that. Did you change down after steering into the bend or not rev match?fangio said:
Pads and discs are far cheaper than clutches or gearboxes. Why place them under more stress?
You aren't placing anything under "more" stress.A modern engine makes something like 30bar BMEP at full positive torque, but under full "engine braking" just around 3 to 4 bar BMEP. The geabox and clutch etc are all sized to cope with the 30bar, so they just don't care about the ocasions where you load them with 4 bar........
Back in the day, when brakes and gearboxes/clutches were crap, all manual and took significant skill to operate (my first car didn't even have syncromesh!!) then seperating braking and changing gear was a VERY good idea, because a smooth gearshift, one that didn't affect chassis balance, or cause an issue if you miss-shifted, took time and skill.
Fast forward to 2016, and these days, even if your car doesn't do anything for you (and a lot of cars now do, including rev matching) the continued development of computer control and systems optimisation means anyone can do a reasonable shift without trying too hard. The clutch is light and it's bite point nicely defined, the throttle linear and responsive, the gearbox slick and the gate well defined, there is probably triple cone syncromesh, and on top of all that, the stability control system and ABS will save you from yourself if you still mess it all up!
So, the system of driving, originally developed in the 1960's sensibly seperated the activities of braking and gear changing. Today, assuming you demonstrate suitable smoothness then i don't see the issue of any overlap etc. It is of course noted that a systematic, er, system of driving is put in place not just for practical reasons but for more complex ones to do with human nature and how we learn and then make actions instinctive, and here, the "system" of Brake then shift, brings a regimented order to things that has other advantages when viewed holistically.
GT6k said:
I was taught to change down going into a bend as it helped the car corner i.e. oversteer. I suspect that this was true for the cars my father drove which had rear wheel drive and cross ply tyres such as the pre-war ford pop. The problem is that on modern front wheel drive cars engine breaking into a bend can be disastrous. I am trying to train myself out of it because on two occasions I have had cars simply plow straight on. Luckily both times I was going quite slowly and nowhere near the limit so it was easily recoverable but it does show that this is a bad practice with modern cars.
Please stop driving.GT6k said:
I am trying to train myself out of it because on two occasions I have had cars simply plow straight on. Luckily both times I was going quite slowly and nowhere near the limit so it was easily recoverable but it does show that this is a bad practice with modern cars.
It's not difficult, just stop doing it!The word is 'plough' not 'plow'. Either way, stay away from me.
Time to hand your licence in, do you think?
Reg Local said:
Why?
Why not?Nobody much cares what I have to say, whereas you have some credibility on here.
To me the idea of separating braking, gear changing, cornering etc is totally alien. I always brake into corners and go straight from brake to throttle. Same on the bike. Trail braking is normal. The vehicle is better balanced and using the gears allows getting off the brake earlier in certain circumstances and therefore onto the throttle.
If you know where the limit of grip is and are comfortable going past that if it happens (or you choose to make it happen) then it isn't a problem.
As I said though, if we slow all this down then 90% of everything is irrelevant anyway.
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