Reg's Youtube thread
Discussion
Haltamer said:
That was a good one!
One question I'd have comes from your mention of using the throttle to control the rear of the car:- This is eminently possible with RWD Cars, and it seems to be the taught method of cornering from all sources:- Balanced throttle on entry, and power out. (For the road at least).
Being constrained to FWD, how would you achieve the same effect?
I know that balanced throttle, power out is a nice smooth way to work, but for spirited driving and improved feel I prefer to enter the corner under light braking (Keeping the nose settled and allowing for more rotation up to the apex), And then managing the line out using the power. - In other words, trail braking! (But not quite as aggresive as "trail braking" would imply)
It has the right feel, for me at least - It's much easier to manage the rotation using the brakes into, then the power out - Rather than the power through approach which works best, it would seem to me, on RWD vehicles.
Perhaps a performance FWD drive at some point?
The technique is the same in front wheel drive cars as it is with rear wheel drive.One question I'd have comes from your mention of using the throttle to control the rear of the car:- This is eminently possible with RWD Cars, and it seems to be the taught method of cornering from all sources:- Balanced throttle on entry, and power out. (For the road at least).
Being constrained to FWD, how would you achieve the same effect?
I know that balanced throttle, power out is a nice smooth way to work, but for spirited driving and improved feel I prefer to enter the corner under light braking (Keeping the nose settled and allowing for more rotation up to the apex), And then managing the line out using the power. - In other words, trail braking! (But not quite as aggresive as "trail braking" would imply)
It has the right feel, for me at least - It's much easier to manage the rotation using the brakes into, then the power out - Rather than the power through approach which works best, it would seem to me, on RWD vehicles.
Perhaps a performance FWD drive at some point?
It’s not about inducing yaw or making the car “loose” - quite the opposite. Early application of gas on turn-in transfers some weigh rearwards & slightly increases grip at the rear axle. This encourages the rear wheels to follow the fronts more accurately. Continual, or increasing application of gas through the corner keeps the rear planted, hence “steering the front wheels with the steering wheel & the rear wheels with the accelerator”.
I’d be happy to make a performance fwd video if anyone wants to lend me their car for a few hours!
Reg Local said:
The technique is the same in front wheel drive cars as it is with rear wheel drive.
It’s not about inducing yaw or making the car “loose” - quite the opposite. Early application of gas on turn-in transfers some weigh rearwards & slightly increases grip at the rear axle. This encourages the rear wheels to follow the fronts more accurately. Continual, or increasing application of gas through the corner keeps the rear planted, hence “steering the front wheels with the steering wheel & the rear wheels with the accelerator”.
I’d be happy to make a performance fwd video if anyone wants to lend me their car for a few hours!
I'd offer if I had more than 100HP It’s not about inducing yaw or making the car “loose” - quite the opposite. Early application of gas on turn-in transfers some weigh rearwards & slightly increases grip at the rear axle. This encourages the rear wheels to follow the fronts more accurately. Continual, or increasing application of gas through the corner keeps the rear planted, hence “steering the front wheels with the steering wheel & the rear wheels with the accelerator”.
I’d be happy to make a performance fwd video if anyone wants to lend me their car for a few hours!
That explaination does make some sense; And It's the approach that I'd take for higher-speed bends. (Throttle balanced, and rolling on with the exit) - I'll have another go at applying it to some tighter corners and see how it works for me
Reg Local said:
Good video, I used to drive that road to Edgworth after I passed my test thirty years ago, it seems busier now than I remember it.Reg Local said:
Welcome to the M club track days planned?Reg Local said:
As an M2 Comp owner I enjoyed that and obviously think you have made a great choice. I'm not sure if this is the right place for specific comments on the car but here goes.Gearbox. My M2 is manual but I had an E92 M4 with a DCT box. You mentioned that BMW describe the gearbox settings as changing the fierceness of the gearchange but you said the settings really change the speed of the change. That wasn't the case in my M4. I ran some acceleration runs in the M4 with a data logger. The least sporty settings gave the quickest acceleration. In the sportiest setting in which the fierce full throttle changes upset the car, the acceleration curve showed an interruption of the drive during each change. I concluded that rather than speeding up the change in the sportier settings the drive is cut slowing the change to make the change feel fiercer. Thereafter I ran the car with the box in the least sporty setting. You might like to investigate whether it is the same in your car.
I have driven my son's cars with extremely fast dual clutch boxes - e.g. the GT3 and the new GTR Pro. The changes are quite smooth as well as being super fast.
Sound. You mention that the exhaust is fruitier in Sports Plus. I didn't hear you mention that the biggest difference to the sound is what comes out of the loudspeakers. I generally also drive in Sport Plus because I like the fruitier artificial sound you get in the mid range. In my manual car I also prefer the throttle response for heel and toe. However, when using the top end of the rev range I find the artificial sound rather droney and I prefer the sound in the efficient setting.
Steering. You mention that you prefer Sport to Sport Plus because you do not benefit from artificial extra weight to the steering. For the same reason I stick to Comfort.
By the way, several of my very expert car and driving friends have driven the car on suitable roads and agree how good it is.
waremark said:
As an M2 Comp owner I enjoyed that and obviously think you have made a great choice. I'm not sure if this is the right place for specific comments on the car but here goes.
Gearbox. My M2 is manual but I had an E92 M4 with a DCT box. You mentioned that BMW describe the gearbox settings as changing the fierceness of the gearchange but you said the settings really change the speed of the change. That wasn't the case in my M4. I ran some acceleration runs in the M4 with a data logger. The least sporty settings gave the quickest acceleration. In the sportiest setting in which the fierce full throttle changes upset the car, the acceleration curve showed an interruption of the drive during each change. I concluded that rather than speeding up the change in the sportier settings the drive is cut slowing the change to make the change feel fiercer. Thereafter I ran the car with the box in the least sporty setting. You might like to investigate whether it is the same in your car.
I have driven my son's cars with extremely fast dual clutch boxes - e.g. the GT3 and the new GTR Pro. The changes are quite smooth as well as being super fast.
Sound. You mention that the exhaust is fruitier in Sports Plus. I didn't hear you mention that the biggest difference to the sound is what comes out of the loudspeakers. I generally also drive in Sport Plus because I like the fruitier artificial sound you get in the mid range. In my manual car I also prefer the throttle response for heel and toe. However, when using the top end of the rev range I find the artificial sound rather droney and I prefer the sound in the efficient setting.
Steering. You mention that you prefer Sport to Sport Plus because you do not benefit from artificial extra weight to the steering. For the same reason I stick to Comfort.
By the way, several of my very expert car and driving friends have driven the car on suitable roads and agree how good it is.
It’s only early days, but the car has a somewhat undefinably nice feel about it. I suspect it’s just a combination of the chassis improvements & the way the electronic diff interacts with the gearbox & steering (diff behaviour has a significant effect on steering response & feel). It’s wieldy size & relatively short wheelbase probably adds to that feeling, but I would still describe it as “precision” over any other descriptive term. And chuckable - a willingness to change direction.Gearbox. My M2 is manual but I had an E92 M4 with a DCT box. You mentioned that BMW describe the gearbox settings as changing the fierceness of the gearchange but you said the settings really change the speed of the change. That wasn't the case in my M4. I ran some acceleration runs in the M4 with a data logger. The least sporty settings gave the quickest acceleration. In the sportiest setting in which the fierce full throttle changes upset the car, the acceleration curve showed an interruption of the drive during each change. I concluded that rather than speeding up the change in the sportier settings the drive is cut slowing the change to make the change feel fiercer. Thereafter I ran the car with the box in the least sporty setting. You might like to investigate whether it is the same in your car.
I have driven my son's cars with extremely fast dual clutch boxes - e.g. the GT3 and the new GTR Pro. The changes are quite smooth as well as being super fast.
Sound. You mention that the exhaust is fruitier in Sports Plus. I didn't hear you mention that the biggest difference to the sound is what comes out of the loudspeakers. I generally also drive in Sport Plus because I like the fruitier artificial sound you get in the mid range. In my manual car I also prefer the throttle response for heel and toe. However, when using the top end of the rev range I find the artificial sound rather droney and I prefer the sound in the efficient setting.
Steering. You mention that you prefer Sport to Sport Plus because you do not benefit from artificial extra weight to the steering. For the same reason I stick to Comfort.
By the way, several of my very expert car and driving friends have driven the car on suitable roads and agree how good it is.
More so than any other BMW I’ve previously driven, this one really does feel like you steer the front wheels with the steering wheel & the rear wheels with the accelerator. Not in an oversteery, drifty, hooligan way, but more in a precise, DRIVE the car through the corner way. It feels more rear-driven than pretty much any other car I’ve ever driven. That might sound a bit daft, but it’s the best description I can currently come up with
Your comments about the DCT gear changes are interesting. Thinking about it logically, in a DCT/DSG/PDK etc gearbox, the next gear is pre-selected, so the gear change time is pretty much negligible, irrespective of the “ferocity” setting. These settings can only change the way the clutches operate, rather than the “speed” of the gear change, so I can easily believe that the softer settings would result in better acceleration, with less interruption to the acceleration curve.
In this video: https://youtu.be/UOMRCK22HV4 a friend generously lent me his tuned M4 with around 550bhp. We had a play with all the settings & found that the softest gear change setting was by far the best for road use, especially under brisk acceleration. Any of the two firmer settings just shunted the rear axle quite uncomfortably.
The “piped” engine sound is interesting - I’d completely forgotten that it had that function installed, which I suppose is a bit of a compliment to the sound engineers who developed it. It doesn’t sound unnatural or false in any way & I quite like it.
I’ll do another video once the running-in service has been done & I can use the full 7600rpm!
Reg Local said:
Men this was absolutely cool... I love it...Thanks for your comments Reg. I agree about the precision. I had not previously linked it to the diff. Both damping and turn in are better IMO than the regular M4, though the M4 is more compliant, and there is even less sensation of turbo lag/boost than the already small sensation in the M4.
waremark said:
Thanks for your comments Reg. I agree about the precision. I had not previously linked it to the diff. Both damping and turn in are better IMO than the regular M4, though the M4 is more compliant, and there is even less sensation of turbo lag/boost than the already small sensation in the M4.
I went out for a bit of a run today - purely for research purposes, of course.It’s still only on 600 miles, so I’m only running it up to around 5,500 rpm & the roads were wet & quite greasy, so these observations are only preliminary & I may well change my view once I’ve got dry roads & the full 7,600 revs, but...
The diff is almost certainly the most significant factor in the improved steering feel & response. It’s clearly open on turn-in which encourages a direct & accurate entry to corners with no hint of understeer. It did push on occasionally in tight corners, but a combination of crappy road surface conditions, optimistic entry speeds & brand new tyres were more likely to be the cause.
What happens next is very much dependant on your driving style. The diff will start to lock-up as soon as you start to apply the gas, and then further lock up as you start to wind off the steering lock. This gives a definite “straightening” effect as the rear axle comes in to play. I kept the DSC in normal mode throughout, so I suspect that kept the more lively characteristics of the rear axle dampened down & I’ll be interested to see how much more exciting the rear axle will feel on dry roads with the DSC in MDM mode, which allows a certain amount of slip before intervening.
So, if you’re the type who likes to enter a corner on a trailing throttle, or even trail the brakes a little, you’ll find that the car is pretty eager to turn in. Not “darty” as such - it’s a little too heavy for that, but certainly very eager to get into the bend. The tricky bit if you pick up the throttle part-way round the corner is that the diff locks quite quickly, especially if you’re also starting to wind off the lock as you pick up the gas. So if thats your style, be ready for the car to feel like it’s trying to straighten up quite forcefully. It’s fine if you’re ready for it, but a little sudden if you’re not.
If, however, your style is to pick up a little throttle on corner entry - just enough positive throttle to maintain your entry speed - the diff starts the locking process much earlier, with just the slightest decrease in turn-in agility (almost unnoticeable in todays conditions, but possibly a little more subdued at higher speeds on dry roads). The transition to firmer throttle pressure as the corner opens up then results in a slightly less sudden locking action.
Anyone who has had a day out with me knows that my preference has always been to enter corners with the gas applied, as it brings a number of benefits, primarily because the rear axle is settled right at the start of the corner. Now I understand a little more about the characteristics of the M2C’s diff, I have another reason to promote this cornering style.
A couple of other observations about the car. The engine is extremely strong, even from low revs & at running-in speeds. On British B roads, 4th gear is extremely flexible & I found myself between 4th & 5th, where in the M135i I’d be between 3rd & 4th.
On very bumpy roads, the car can get a little unsettled. I think it’s just the damping & spring rate increases & the car was fine on any other road surface, but it felt just a little bouncy on bumpy, rutted tarmac & I felt I was working a little harder to keep it on an accurate course.
And it was nice to be reminded just how bloody good Michelin Pilot Supersport tyres are! Even on horrible wet, slimy Northern English roads in January, they filled me with confidence & were never anything less than precise, predictable & consistent. Lovely!
If you want to know more about the way the rear diff operates & you can stay awake through it, here’s a strangely old-fashioned style American video which shows how the hardware works:
https://youtu.be/xFXlF21yHtw
Reg Local said:
And it was nice to be reminded just how bloody good Michelin Pilot Supersport tyres are! Even on horrible wet, slimy Northern English roads in January, they filled me with confidence & were never anything less than precise, predictable & consistent. Lovely!
Moving to the Supersports certainly improved my 1M compared to the Pilot Sport 3 it had previously (think they were 3 though there is a 4 available now), they seem a bit more compliant on bumpier roads than the previous tyres as well as having loads of grip, sadly they only last about 10-12k like the pilot sport. 
I would be quite interested to see a video on road surfaces. I sometimes find that positioning to the nearside for an approaching right-hander can be let down by sunken drains or manhole covers near the verge. While I'd like to be over to the nearside, I have a dislike of crashing through potholes or through bad surfaces, so take a different position to allow to road wheels to stay on the smoothest sections, despite being less optimal from a positioning point of view.
Likewise on faster sections, I often find myself scanning the immediate road surface for potholes, instead of looking into the far distance.
Enjoying the videos so far, Reg!
Likewise on faster sections, I often find myself scanning the immediate road surface for potholes, instead of looking into the far distance.
Enjoying the videos so far, Reg!
I had to cancel some IAM tests today because of the weather, so I’ve had a bit of unexpected time to edit and upload another one.
Limit points:
https://youtu.be/OWD7SNU4eXs
Limit points:
https://youtu.be/OWD7SNU4eXs
Reg Local said:
Thanks for the mention Reg! Fame at last.......... :-)Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff