Driving test fail - unfair?
Discussion
If I were to give my opinion about this - and I reckon this has already been said by a fair few people (judging by the amount of replies), I'd say that roundabouts in general are quite subjective: You ask ten different people how to navigate a particular roundabout, you'll get ten different answers. I think, in general, they're a stupid concept and should be reconsidered (I can't think of a solution - I mean, they're useful and all - but the rules governing them are so loosely-followed and loosely-enforced that, half the time, they cause more accidents than they're trying to save).
In this instance, I would have positioned myself right - but taken into account the vehicle behind and mentioned this to the examiner. That said, some examiners are quite 'wooden' and would purely go by the book. Personally, if you can legally and safely justify your own dictation on the road, then where's the danger in that? I know there are a lot of exceptions to what I've just said - but if there was a child waiting to cross just before the roundabout, wouldn't it be safer to position to the right, anyway? Food for thought, as always.
In this instance, I would have positioned myself right - but taken into account the vehicle behind and mentioned this to the examiner. That said, some examiners are quite 'wooden' and would purely go by the book. Personally, if you can legally and safely justify your own dictation on the road, then where's the danger in that? I know there are a lot of exceptions to what I've just said - but if there was a child waiting to cross just before the roundabout, wouldn't it be safer to position to the right, anyway? Food for thought, as always.
When I was instructing through the 80s and 90s the examiners were using clear instruction. My students were taught various roundabout configurations during their lessons, however, I always taught them that some roundabouts were open to interpretation due to exit position, markings on approach/exit and sometimes local knowledge. Therefore, whether they were tested in Beckenham or Greenford, Birmingham or Aberdeen, the default was to listen to the examiner and signal and position according to their instruction, i.e., "turn left/right/follow road ahead" (for your signal/position) and then "that is the 1st/2nd/3rd/10th exit" for the location.
I'm not sure how the GPS part of the test applies...
I'm not sure how the GPS part of the test applies...
Benrad said:
Not seen anyone mention the following yet...
As the roundabout has only three exits in total it's a mini-roundabout (regardless of the size of the island). So first exit left 'lane, second exit right 'lane'. No requirement to indicate when you leave the roundabout (although it would make sense in this case as joining traffic won't know which exit you came on at).
Also, on the road sign the exit is after 12 o'clock so is technically 'right'.
I would approach on the right hand side with a right indicator, combined with good observations behind incase anyone thinks you're looping, on a driving test. Not on test I'd drop the right indicator but stay on the right side of the lane.
1. This is not a mini roundabout. A mini roundabout is literally mini - usually only a white-painted dot in the middle of the road that you can drive over, or occasionally a small concrete bollard. It's got nothing to do with number of exits. The infamous twin mini roundabouts in Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne, have multiple entry/exit points, but they're still mini roundabouts.As the roundabout has only three exits in total it's a mini-roundabout (regardless of the size of the island). So first exit left 'lane, second exit right 'lane'. No requirement to indicate when you leave the roundabout (although it would make sense in this case as joining traffic won't know which exit you came on at).
Also, on the road sign the exit is after 12 o'clock so is technically 'right'.
I would approach on the right hand side with a right indicator, combined with good observations behind incase anyone thinks you're looping, on a driving test. Not on test I'd drop the right indicator but stay on the right side of the lane.
2. Just because a sign indicates an exit just past 12 o'clock doesn't mean it's a right turn. Look at the first road sign on approach, the green one entitled Ballengeich. The exit is indicated just a fraction past 12 o'clock - clearly this isn't signing a right turn, it's straight on. Anything between 11 and 1 o'clock on a sign should be taken to be straight on, between 2 and 4 o'clock to be a right turn, etc. The next sign with the brown labels signposting Stirling Castle is ambiguous and contradictory of the first, as the exit is now magically at half past one, right in the ambiguous zone, which does put a spanner in the works. I would personally assume the green one, which is meant for road navigation, supercedes the one with the brown labels which denotes tourist attractions only. It doesn't even show the other exit.
3. There is only one lane in the approach to the roundabout. The OP's problem I think derives from driving as if there are two lanes, which there aren't. Yes, it does widen on the approach to the roundabout, but there are no lane markings at all. The Highway Code says to take the "appropriate lane" when proceeding straight ahead - there usually will be advisory markings of which lane to take if there are multiple lanes, but in this case there aren't any because the road designers only intend on maintaining a single lane. A bird's eye view helps to visualise this.
4. So, the correct way to navigate the roundabout? Maintain central positioning in the lane, no indication on entry, left indication on exit. Positioning lane left is a sure-fire way of indicating to a driver behind that you're turning left, so they will try and pass on the right. Then when you go straight on they've go nowhere to go, creating a dangerous, test-failing situation. There is only one lane, so stay in the middle of it.
Edited by modellista on Thursday 1st February 11:08
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.5976494,-1.07960...
Oadby Leics mini - right lane for ahead - left for left turn - indicate right for tiny side street
Surprising how many indicate right for ahead !!!!!
Oadby Leics mini - right lane for ahead - left for left turn - indicate right for tiny side street
Surprising how many indicate right for ahead !!!!!
R0G said:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.5976494,-1.07960...
Oadby Leics mini - right lane for ahead - left for left turn - indicate right for tiny side street
Surprising how many indicate right for ahead !!!!!
I would consider that reasonable. The majority of traffic goes left there, and while it's technically correct to not indicate for straight ahead, there's a good chance someone unobservant will pull out in front of you, assuming you're making the more common left turn, just not indicating.Oadby Leics mini - right lane for ahead - left for left turn - indicate right for tiny side street
Surprising how many indicate right for ahead !!!!!
A right indicator, effectively to say "I am definitely not turning left" may be "wrong", but it achieves the objective of removing ambiguity of your intent from other drivers, and is probably safer, on balance.
Does anyone go down that little street? I'm trying to remember ever seeing a car use it in nearly twenty years!
R0G said:
By indicating right at that Oadby mini means that traffic coming from the other direction stops as they think they are going into the tiny street
Then if there's a car there, adjust your methodology not to do that.I suppose I'm just tryign to get across that, rather than sticking rigidly to rules for how to signal a defined road layout, it's better to take an approach of doing what seems to best express your intentions to the people around you, and I sometimes find indicating unnecessarily or "incorrectly" achieves that by ruling out a potential/previously evident ambiguity.
InitialDave said:
Then if there's a car there, adjust your methodology not to do that.
I suppose I'm just tryign to get across that, rather than sticking rigidly to rules for how to signal a defined road layout, it's better to take an approach of doing what seems to best express your intentions to the people around you, and I sometimes find indicating unnecessarily or "incorrectly" achieves that by ruling out a potential/previously evident ambiguity.
"Methodology" being no signal >adjustment of speed just in case traffic from the left move forward> considered use of warning of presence I guess. I suppose I'm just tryign to get across that, rather than sticking rigidly to rules for how to signal a defined road layout, it's better to take an approach of doing what seems to best express your intentions to the people around you, and I sometimes find indicating unnecessarily or "incorrectly" achieves that by ruling out a potential/previously evident ambiguity.
I many areas driving is not an exact science.
Making allowances, endeavouring to be unambiguous, making alternative mental scenarios to those anticipated as normal for the conditions, etc, are just as important as textbook rigidity.
Sometimes deviation from textbook is inevitable and we should adapt as best as possible.
Making allowances, endeavouring to be unambiguous, making alternative mental scenarios to those anticipated as normal for the conditions, etc, are just as important as textbook rigidity.
Sometimes deviation from textbook is inevitable and we should adapt as best as possible.
InitialDave said:
R0G said:
By indicating right at that Oadby mini means that traffic coming from the other direction stops as they think they are going into the tiny street
Then if there's a car there, adjust your methodology not to do that.I suppose I'm just trying to get across that, rather than sticking rigidly to rules for how to signal a defined road layout, it's better to take an approach of doing what seems to best express your intentions to the people around you, and I sometimes find indicating unnecessarily or "incorrectly" achieves that by ruling out a potential/previously evident ambiguity.
PhilAsia said:
In many areas driving is not an exact science.
Making allowances, endeavouring to be unambiguous, making alternative mental scenarios to those anticipated as normal for the conditions, etc, are just as important as textbook rigidity.
Sometimes deviation from textbook is inevitable and we should adapt as best as possible.
Agreed. Making allowances, endeavouring to be unambiguous, making alternative mental scenarios to those anticipated as normal for the conditions, etc, are just as important as textbook rigidity.
Sometimes deviation from textbook is inevitable and we should adapt as best as possible.
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