Am i the only person who indicates?
Discussion
RobM77 said:
Convinced yet? 
I can think of more!
You forgot the alien spacecraft hoping to use the offside lane as a landing strip. I can think of more!The fact is that if they can't see me in the offside position (while I'm checking ahead for potholes, cyclists etc), they are hardly going to see my signal.
Anyway if it's that common for drivers to veer onto the offside without warning, what are you doing overtaking at all?
Dr Jekyll said:
RobM77 said:
Convinced yet? I can think of more!
You forgot the alien spacecraft hoping to use the offside lane as a landing strip. I can think of more!The fact is that if they can't see me in the offside position (while I'm checking ahead for potholes, cyclists etc), they are hardly going to see my signal.
Anyway if it's that common for drivers to veer onto the offside without warning, what are you doing overtaking at all?
You shouldn't start indicating in the offside position - an indication should occur before any change of speed or course and with sufficient time so that the people affected have a chance to see it before you start the manoeuvre. It's a signal of what you're about to do, not what you're doing. When someone knows you're about to move out to the offside then it prevents accidents happening from that huge list of things I wrote before lunch.
There are a few cars (a seat one in particular) where they have normal white DRL's, sometimes which are quite bright, and then these tiny little indicators on the front. Its vitrually impossible to see the actual indicator until they are within almost touching distance. A few times I've been thinking 'use your bloody indicator' only to find that they actually are using it, its just too hard to see.
Terrible design and surely there needs to be some motoring guidelines that manufacturers should adhere too...
Terrible design and surely there needs to be some motoring guidelines that manufacturers should adhere too...
RobM77 said:
I
You shouldn't start indicating in the offside position - an indication should occur before any change of speed or course and with sufficient time so that the people affected have a chance to see it before you start the manoeuvre. It's a signal of what you're about to do, not what you're doing. When someone knows you're about to move out to the offside then it prevents accidents happening from that huge list of things I wrote before lunch.
But the move to the offside position doesn't affect the vehicle in front, their hypothetical move to the offside is only an issue once I'm moving past them. On moving offside I may very well decide not to overtake at all and move back nearside because the offside view has shown me something that may cause them to move offside. Once I'm offside and decide to accelerate into an overtake the indication is irrelevant anyway because there is no change of course, and they won't be able to see the indication if they can't see that I'm offside.You shouldn't start indicating in the offside position - an indication should occur before any change of speed or course and with sufficient time so that the people affected have a chance to see it before you start the manoeuvre. It's a signal of what you're about to do, not what you're doing. When someone knows you're about to move out to the offside then it prevents accidents happening from that huge list of things I wrote before lunch.
Of course if you're doing some kind of flying overtake, moving offside at overtaking speed when already committed, then an indication is probably useful. But that's really an amateurish way to overtake.
RobM77 said:
There is always the possibility that you've missed something with your observation. Nobody is perfect.
Second, you don't indicate when you're overtaking someone?!
That's just unsafe. There are lots of reasons that person might need to know they're being overtaken.
I can think of more!
I've got one MUCH more likely than any of these.....Second, you don't indicate when you're overtaking someone?!
That's just unsafe. There are lots of reasons that person might need to know they're being overtaken.- The motorbike in your blind spot that's in the process of overtaking you at the time and that you've failed to see.
- The underconfident driver in the slower car in front who is about to stop and let you past, but if he knew you were overtaking then he needn't bother looking at that opportunity coming up to stop, checking his mirrors, and preparing to slow.
- The deer crouched in the hedgerow up ahead that he's spotted but you haven't. The driver you're overtaking is planning to move over to the right to keep himself safer and 'herd' the deer back into the undergrowth (a standard technique that works well - the more angle you can get on wildlife the more likely they are to commit to a direction to run when they see your car). Yes, he may not indicate to do that, but does that give you the right to take you both out?
- The pothole that the driver is about to go round. If he knew you were overtaking then he'd run through the pothole instead.
- The driver you're overtaking is turning right up ahead into a hidden entrance you haven't spotted yet (hidden by grass perhaps).
- The driver is planning on pulling up on the right-hand side of the road to park. Yes, he should park on the left and yes, he should indicate to do this - but what if he's a bad driver? Does that give you the right to be in an almighty accident with him?
- The driver is going around a cyclist up ahead that you haven't seen yet.
- The pedestrian that you haven't seen who is planning on crossing the road from your right to left by strolling across the empty side of the road, waiting for you both to pass and the completing their crossing. Lots of pedestrians do this and when they glance left to cross and see two cars, neither of which is indicating, they may not bother to look again before crossing. You haven't seen the pedestrian by the way - because your observation isn't perfect.
- The driver of the car in front may want to prepare to help you with your overtake.
- The driver of the car in front may decide to speed up (for a variety of reasons) just before you commit to the manoeuvre. Just because he's not spotted you start the overtake doesn't mean he didn't glance in his mirror a second earlier to see if you were signalling - nobody looks in their mirrors all the time.
I can think of more!- The driver will accelerate or swerve across the road when you try to overtake, in order to attempt to murder you for queue jumping their one man queue.
Hence when I overtake on a single carriageway, I prefer the "stealth" overtake from a non-aggressive road position and a 2s+ gap. I've had far more near "incidents" from indicating to overtake than i've had from the "stealth" overtake (actually none).
Dr Jekyll said:
RobM77 said:
I
You shouldn't start indicating in the offside position - an indication should occur before any change of speed or course and with sufficient time so that the people affected have a chance to see it before you start the manoeuvre. It's a signal of what you're about to do, not what you're doing. When someone knows you're about to move out to the offside then it prevents accidents happening from that huge list of things I wrote before lunch.
But the move to the offside position doesn't affect the vehicle in front, their hypothetical move to the offside is only an issue once I'm moving past them. On moving offside I may very well decide not to overtake at all and move back nearside because the offside view has shown me something that may cause them to move offside. Once I'm offside and decide to accelerate into an overtake the indication is irrelevant anyway because there is no change of course, and they won't be able to see the indication if they can't see that I'm offside.You shouldn't start indicating in the offside position - an indication should occur before any change of speed or course and with sufficient time so that the people affected have a chance to see it before you start the manoeuvre. It's a signal of what you're about to do, not what you're doing. When someone knows you're about to move out to the offside then it prevents accidents happening from that huge list of things I wrote before lunch.
Of course if you're doing some kind of flying overtake, moving offside at overtaking speed when already committed, then an indication is probably useful. But that's really an amateurish way to overtake.
RobM77 said:
What about people other than the person being overtaken? Check out my list earlier: for example the biker sat in your RH blind spot, or the pedestrian up ahead crossing the road halfway whilst they wait for the two cars to pass.
You check your blind spot before you move out. You certainly shouldn't be overtaking if there's a chance of a pedestrian crossing the road ahead, if you do, I can't think an indicator is going to help.Rob and I have agreed to disagree about this more than once before. I belong to the 'indicate if it may be useful to someone but not otherwise' school.
There are good and bad drivers who always indicate, and there are good and bad drivers who do not always indicate. A high proportion of those who indicate do so without looking carefully first and without waiting for time to react after starting to indicate. I see so many drivers indicating as they move - in which case the indicating is completely useless.
I want to encourage myself and others to look carefully and to think whether other road users may be affected before changing speed or direction. I find that not indicating unless it may be useful is a powerful prompt to carry out an extra level of observation, and the net effect is an increase in safety.
It is possible for those who always indicate also to carry out a high level of observation. VH has argued that a rule of indicating unless it may confuse has the same beneficial effect on observation as not indicating unless it may be useful. I find it difficult to believe that that approach can have the same beneficial effect as not indicating unless it may be useful.
BTW, I rarely indicate when I overtake. I can assure you that I do consider whether the vehicle being overtaken knows what I am doing, and I consider the implications if he does not know. I don't believe that indicating when the overtake decision is taken would much change the likelihood of them knowing.
There are good and bad drivers who always indicate, and there are good and bad drivers who do not always indicate. A high proportion of those who indicate do so without looking carefully first and without waiting for time to react after starting to indicate. I see so many drivers indicating as they move - in which case the indicating is completely useless.
I want to encourage myself and others to look carefully and to think whether other road users may be affected before changing speed or direction. I find that not indicating unless it may be useful is a powerful prompt to carry out an extra level of observation, and the net effect is an increase in safety.
It is possible for those who always indicate also to carry out a high level of observation. VH has argued that a rule of indicating unless it may confuse has the same beneficial effect on observation as not indicating unless it may be useful. I find it difficult to believe that that approach can have the same beneficial effect as not indicating unless it may be useful.
BTW, I rarely indicate when I overtake. I can assure you that I do consider whether the vehicle being overtaken knows what I am doing, and I consider the implications if he does not know. I don't believe that indicating when the overtake decision is taken would much change the likelihood of them knowing.
Dr Jekyll said:
RobM77 said:
What about people other than the person being overtaken? Check out my list earlier: for example the biker sat in your RH blind spot, or the pedestrian up ahead crossing the road halfway whilst they wait for the two cars to pass.
You check your blind spot before you move out. You certainly shouldn't be overtaking if there's a chance of a pedestrian crossing the road ahead, if you do, I can't think an indicator is going to help.The advice should be to always be aware as possible of whether or not anyone would likely benefit from an indication, and then to go ahead and indicate anyway. Nothing is gained from not indicating if you've already got the first part covered. One doesn't need to prove to anyone else that they're a more aware driver by not indicating.
If, in order to promote better awarenes, someone needs to be advised to not indicate unless they have seen someone else that will benefit from it then they arguably aren't as advanced a driver as they consider themselves to be.
Also, there's the issue of people hearing about "advanced drivers" who don't indicate unless necessary and thinking to themselves well I'm advanced and then deciding to not indicate without the benefit of other advanced driving knowledge.
If, in order to promote better awarenes, someone needs to be advised to not indicate unless they have seen someone else that will benefit from it then they arguably aren't as advanced a driver as they consider themselves to be.
Also, there's the issue of people hearing about "advanced drivers" who don't indicate unless necessary and thinking to themselves well I'm advanced and then deciding to not indicate without the benefit of other advanced driving knowledge.
MaxSo said:
The advice should be to always be aware as possible of whether or not anyone would likely benefit from an indication, and then to go ahead and indicate anyway. Nothing is gained from not indicating if you've already got the first part covered. One doesn't need to prove to anyone else that they're a more aware driver by not indicating.
If, in order to promote better awarenes, someone needs to be advised to not indicate unless they have seen someone else that will benefit from it then they arguably aren't as advanced a driver as they consider themselves to be.
Also, there's the issue of people hearing about "advanced drivers" who don't indicate unless necessary and thinking to themselves well I'm advanced and then deciding to not indicate without the benefit of other advanced driving knowledge.
A lot of people seem to think that if they indicate routinely through caution, as I'm advocating, they'll suddenly stop using indication as a form of communication and it'll degrade to a dumb habit. The danger of that being that when there are people around you could give misleading signals. I'm not convinced that will happen. I've been driving 24 years and indicating the whole time and I still take a good look at who I'm signalling to and make sure the timing of the signal is helpful to them (for example, to stop them having to move out around me as I slow) - the fact that if I see nobody during my MSM I indicate anyway, doesn't change the way I MSM - why would it?If, in order to promote better awarenes, someone needs to be advised to not indicate unless they have seen someone else that will benefit from it then they arguably aren't as advanced a driver as they consider themselves to be.
Also, there's the issue of people hearing about "advanced drivers" who don't indicate unless necessary and thinking to themselves well I'm advanced and then deciding to not indicate without the benefit of other advanced driving knowledge.
At the end of the day, this is an issue of cost vs benefit. The cost is a small flick of a finger, and the benefit is that one day you might alert a crazy biker sat in your blind spot, or a sleepy pedestrian, and possibly avoid an accident. More often that that, if you indicate more often you'll certainly prevent frustration from other road users too on the odd occasion your observation is not perfect. I don't see the problem with just doing it.
RobM77 said:
At the end of the day, this is an issue of cost vs benefit. The cost is a small flick of a finger, and the benefit is that one day you might alert a crazy biker sat in your blind spot, or a sleepy pedestrian, and possibly avoid an accident. More often that that, if you indicate more often you'll certainly prevent frustration from other road users too on the odd occasion your observation is not perfect. I don't see the problem with just doing it.
I have only quoted part of your post to say I totally agree, doesn't hurt to indicate, I do it all the time, as you say your observation is not perfect.RobM77 said:
I've been driving 24 years and indicating the whole time and I still take a good look at who I'm signalling to and make sure the timing of the signal is helpful to them (for example, to stop them having to move out around me as I slow) - the fact that if I see nobody during my MSM I indicate anyway, doesn't change the way I MSM - why would it?
You - and indeed I - are very unusual. Many drivers, probably most drivers, signal without looking or thinking. The cost of encouraging them to continue signalling all the time is that they continue to do so without looking or thinking. waremark said:
RobM77 said:
I've been driving 24 years and indicating the whole time and I still take a good look at who I'm signalling to and make sure the timing of the signal is helpful to them (for example, to stop them having to move out around me as I slow) - the fact that if I see nobody during my MSM I indicate anyway, doesn't change the way I MSM - why would it?
You - and indeed I - are very unusual. Many drivers, probably most drivers, signal without looking or thinking. The cost of encouraging them to continue signalling all the time is that they continue to do so without looking or thinking. RobM77 said:
Very sadly yes, you're right. The overwhelming majority of people indicate as they do a manoeuvre - they link the two together, and indicating for them has nothing at all to do with communication. This is one of my major frustrations as a road user. I agree that teaching communication etc is difficult if you're simultaneously telling the driver to always indicate, because that driver would very easily just make it a habit. However, I do wonder if the approach being described here of only indicating if you can see someone is a useful drill or teaching technique; although as I've explained before, I certainly don't think it's a wise thing to do all the time, simply because one's observation is not perfect.
Who has advocated that?RobM77 said:
waremark said:
RobM77 said:
I've been driving 24 years and indicating the whole time and I still take a good look at who I'm signalling to and make sure the timing of the signal is helpful to them (for example, to stop them having to move out around me as I slow) - the fact that if I see nobody during my MSM I indicate anyway, doesn't change the way I MSM - why would it?
You - and indeed I - are very unusual. Many drivers, probably most drivers, signal without looking or thinking. The cost of encouraging them to continue signalling all the time is that they continue to do so without looking or thinking. RobM77 said:
Very sadly yes, you're right. The overwhelming majority of people indicate as they do a manoeuvre - they link the two together, and indicating for them has nothing at all to do with communication. This is one of my major frustrations as a road user. I agree that teaching communication etc is difficult if you're simultaneously telling the driver to always indicate, because that driver would very easily just make it a habit. However, I do wonder if the approach being described here of only indicating if you can see someone is a useful drill or teaching technique; although as I've explained before, I certainly don't think it's a wise thing to do all the time, simply because one's observation is not perfect.
That just about sums it up for me:1. The THEORY of indicating only where someone will benefit could arguably be a useful teaching technique, BUT, I'd suggest even then the drill should be to go through that process, perhaps including commentary on why an indication is not likely to be of benefit, and then to indicate anyway. If part 1 of the drill has been completed there is no reason not to indicate anyway. It's a fail safe. No one's observation is perfect 100% of the time. There is nothing to be gained from not indicating, whereas indicating even though you *think* no one will benefit could prove to be of benefit on the inevitable occasions where normal human error occurs.
2. If most people indicate as they manoeuvre this is at least better than not indicating at all (assuming the same manoeuvre takes place and assuming the correct indicator is used!).
3. Tuition should aim to make a habit of constant observation and assessment of who would or could potentially benefit from an indication, BUT, together with an indication in any event.
RobM77 said:
MaxSo said:
The advice should be to always be aware as possible of whether or not anyone would likely benefit from an indication, and then to go ahead and indicate anyway. Nothing is gained from not indicating if you've already got the first part covered. One doesn't need to prove to anyone else that they're a more aware driver by not indicating.
If, in order to promote better awarenes, someone needs to be advised to not indicate unless they have seen someone else that will benefit from it then they arguably aren't as advanced a driver as they consider themselves to be.
Also, there's the issue of people hearing about "advanced drivers" who don't indicate unless necessary and thinking to themselves well I'm advanced and then deciding to not indicate without the benefit of other advanced driving knowledge.
A lot of people seem to think that if they indicate routinely through caution, as I'm advocating, they'll suddenly stop using indication as a form of communication and it'll degrade to a dumb habit. The danger of that being that when there are people around you could give misleading signals. I'm not convinced that will happen. I've been driving 24 years and indicating the whole time and I still take a good look at who I'm signalling to and make sure the timing of the signal is helpful to them (for example, to stop them having to move out around me as I slow) - the fact that if I see nobody during my MSM I indicate anyway, doesn't change the way I MSM - why would it?If, in order to promote better awarenes, someone needs to be advised to not indicate unless they have seen someone else that will benefit from it then they arguably aren't as advanced a driver as they consider themselves to be.
Also, there's the issue of people hearing about "advanced drivers" who don't indicate unless necessary and thinking to themselves well I'm advanced and then deciding to not indicate without the benefit of other advanced driving knowledge.
At the end of the day, this is an issue of cost vs benefit. The cost is a small flick of a finger, and the benefit is that one day you might alert a crazy biker sat in your blind spot, or a sleepy pedestrian, and possibly avoid an accident. More often that that, if you indicate more often you'll certainly prevent frustration from other road users too on the odd occasion your observation is not perfect. I don't see the problem with just doing it.
waremark said:
It is possible for those who always indicate also to carry out a high level of observation. VH has argued that a rule of indicating unless it may confuse has the same beneficial effect on observation as not indicating unless it may be useful. I find it difficult to believe that that approach can have the same beneficial effect as not indicating unless it may be useful.
Why is this so difficult to believe? Have you tried it? I've tried both and find they have an identical effect on observation.I originally used to "only indicate if it benefits another road user", because it was ingrained into me by John Lyon. Later I switched to always indicating unless it could confuse another road user; I found this better. I much prefer this approach for all the reasons outlined by RobM77:
RobM77 said:
At the end of the day, this is an issue of cost vs benefit. The cost is a small flick of a finger, and the benefit is that one day you might alert a crazy biker sat in your blind spot, or a sleepy pedestrian, and possibly avoid an accident. More often that that, if you indicate more often you'll certainly prevent frustration from other road users too on the odd occasion your observation is not perfect.
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