Am i the only person who indicates?

[cylinderfin]

Pica-Pica said:

Yes, I have followed police cars who do the same. One even overtook me on a motorway, then indicated left (presumably to return to lane) but it was just before an exit slip road - shoddy. They too, fail to give a signal that may help a pedestrian who is waiting to cross a road. I give them a woeful shake of the head.

Some of these cops are human after all!

[anonymous-user]

waremark said:

Rob and I have agreed to disagree about this more than once before. I belong to the 'indicate if it may be useful to someone but not otherwise' school.

BTW, I rarely indicate when I overtake. I can assure you that I do consider whether the vehicle being overtaken knows what I am doing, and I consider the implications if he does not know. I don't believe that indicating when the overtake decision is taken would much change the likelihood of them knowing.

I wonder if you were one of the idiots that came close to knocking me off my motor bike on several occasions by changing from L2 to L3 to overtake someone in L2 without seeing me already in L3 in the process of passing you? Never mind the vehicle you are overtaking what about the person overtaking you?

Does it hurt to give me some warning that you are about to change lane? Is the flick of a stalk prior to your manoeuvre too much for you to do to avoid a possible accident? Do you somehow know 100% what is going on around you at all times (just like all those other people who after the accident say "I didn't see him", "he came from nowhere" or even better carry on up the road oblivious to the carnage caused.)

You have no idea whether your indicating will be "useful to someone" as 1 in a 1000 times you won't have any idea that there is someone even there.... until it is too late and then you will no doubt be saying "sorry didn't see you".

How can you even argue against indicating when it costs nothing and takes no effort except a bit of planning whereby you need to indicate a reasonable time before manoeuvring. Surely it's just part of good defensive and courteous driving.

Curiously I find truck drivers are the best indicators, they always seem to indicate long before making any move. Presumably because they know they may not be able to see someone, well done them.

[waremark]

MikeStroud said:

waremark said:

Rob and I have agreed to disagree about this more than once before. I belong to the 'indicate if it may be useful to someone but not otherwise' school.

BTW, I rarely indicate when I overtake. I can assure you that I do consider whether the vehicle being overtaken knows what I am doing, and I consider the implications if he does not know. I don't believe that indicating when the overtake decision is taken would much change the likelihood of them knowing.

I wonder if you were one of the idiots that came close to knocking me off my motor bike on several occasions by changing from L2 to L3 to overtake someone in L2 without seeing me already in L3 in the process of passing you? Never mind the vehicle you are overtaking what about the person overtaking you?

Hopefully not - because I would not have pulled out in a manner to inconvenience or endanger you. My argument is that the driver who is intelligently selective about indicating is more likely to look carefully before manoeuvring than the one who always indicates. So many lane changers signal as they start to change lanes, long after the observant have seen that they are about to do so. But if they knock you off they will be able to say they were signalling.

[akirk]

MikeStroud said:

waremark said:

Rob and I have agreed to disagree about this more than once before. I belong to the 'indicate if it may be useful to someone but not otherwise' school.

BTW, I rarely indicate when I overtake. I can assure you that I do consider whether the vehicle being overtaken knows what I am doing, and I consider the implications if he does not know. I don't believe that indicating when the overtake decision is taken would much change the likelihood of them knowing.

I wonder if you were one of the idiots that came close to knocking me off my motor bike on several occasions by changing from L2 to L3 to overtake someone in L2 without seeing me already in L3 in the process of passing you? Never mind the vehicle you are overtaking what about the person overtaking you?

Does it hurt to give me some warning that you are about to change lane? Is the flick of a stalk prior to your manoeuvre too much for you to do to avoid a possible accident? Do you somehow know 100% what is going on around you at all times (just like all those other people who after the accident say "I didn't see him", "he came from nowhere" or even better carry on up the road oblivious to the carnage caused.)

You have no idea whether your indicating will be "useful to someone" as 1 in a 1000 times you won't have any idea that there is someone even there.... until it is too late and then you will no doubt be saying "sorry didn't see you".

How can you even argue against indicating when it costs nothing and takes no effort except a bit of planning whereby you need to indicate a reasonable time before manoeuvring. Surely it's just part of good defensive and courteous driving.

Curiously I find truck drivers are the best indicators, they always seem to indicate long before making any move. Presumably because they know they may not be able to see someone, well done them.

yes there are times when indicating is the wrong / confusing thing to do... or where care is needed...
NSL road near us, petrol station immediately followed by junction on the same side... car taking the junction indicates left, car in petrol station assumes they are coming in to refill and pulls out = accident (happens frequently)
urban road with parked car and right-hand junction, are you indicating to pass the car or turn right? Your message might not be the message read by other road users.
Indicators are one tool of many to communicate with other road users, and their lack of use or inaccurate use can be equally confusing, so with the junction and petrol station, an early left indicator and dab of the brakes to warn the car behind, then slowing down earlier to reduce the speed, but not enough to make it look as though you are pulling into the petrol station, then indicator on slightly late as you pass the petrol station entrance, all gives far more clarity - might not give early warning to a car in the junction, who may gave had time to come out, but better their delay than a misunderstanding from the car in the petrol station exit...

re your other points, why would a driver like Waremark not know you were there - unlikely...
why do you as a motorcyclist in L3 need him to indicate - are you not watching traffic ahead and anticipating his movement, or are you so oblivious to what is going on around you that you need a flashy light to warn you?!

on a motorway, the majority of moves do not need indication, if you move out early enough the cars you are passing won't even notice, if you move back non-disruptively, again, it is not needed... think of an indicator as being needed when you might otherwise say 'excuse me, I am just going to...' e.g. if returning L3 to L2 and not affecting anyone, then no indicator needed, if a vehicle in L1 could be thinking of moving out to L2 to overtake a slower vehicle then you would use the indicator, but you would also move across more slowly / at a more gradual angle, giving them time to see your change of direction, and giving you time to move back out if necessary...

anticipation of others and planning is the first tool in the box, positioning of your car is the next tool, indicators are there to add confirmation or clarity... that ends up as far more communicative then blindly indicating without thought as to how that signal might be read... In many cases timing and car positioning are your strongest firms of communication - that is not to say don't use an indicator, but think about how it is used...

Edited by akirk on Saturday 31st March 08:01

[Dr Jekyll]

MikeStroud said:

How can you even argue against indicating when it costs nothing and takes no effort except a bit of planning whereby you need to indicate a reasonable time before manoeuvring. Surely it's just part of good defensive and courteous driving.

It takes no effort at all, that's my problem with it. Deciding whether or not to indicate does take planning and observation.

[MaxSo]

Deciding whether or not an indication is likely to benefit anyone, and then doing it anyway just in case your assessment was wrong, takes the most effort of all and is therefore the best way.

[lyonspride]

akirk said:

anticipation of others and planning is the first tool in the box, positioning of your car is the next tool, indicators are there to add confirmation or clarity... that ends up as far more communicative then blindly indicating without thought as to how that signal might be read... In many cases timing and car positioning are your strongest firms of communication - that is not to say don't use an indicator, but think about how it is used...

Edited by akirk on Saturday 31st March 08:01

Pretty much the best way to put it, relying people to use indicators is going to end in tears.

The trouble is the incompetent drivers who look for silly stuff like always indicating or using the steering wheel like a learner is taught, any of the simple habitual stuff they remember from when they were learning, whilst forgetting the finer points of actually driving, like predicting what others are doing, having situational awareness, road positioning, etc. These people love nothing more than to pick fault with drivers over the things they can remember.
So you'll see them driving down a dark dual carriageway without headlights, you overtake them, pull back in 300yrds ahead and they'll flash their lights repeatedly to "teach you a lesson" for not indicating to pull back in.

I always remember the accident my father nearly caused (yes I think it was his fault) by not thinking before indicating for a junction, there was a parking layby just before the junction with a vehicle positioned at the end of it, the driver saw his indication and went to pull out, we ended up on the wrong side of the road with a bus bearing down on us.

Edited by lyonspride on Saturday 31st March 09:00

[waremark]

MaxSo said:

Deciding whether or not an indication is likely to benefit anyone, and then doing it anyway just in case your assessment was wrong, takes the most effort of all and is therefore the best way.

Is that human nature? Most drivers who come to advanced training do so with a low level of observation and planning. Getting them to change from automatic indicating to selective indicating is an aid to raising the level of observation and planning.

The other three of the last four posts are extremely well put.

[cmaguire]

waremark said:

MaxSo said:

Deciding whether or not an indication is likely to benefit anyone, and then doing it anyway just in case your assessment was wrong, takes the most effort of all and is therefore the best way.

Is that human nature? Most drivers who come to advanced training do so with a low level of observation and planning. Getting them to change from automatic indicating to selective indicating is an aid to raising the level of observation and planning.

The other three of the last four posts are extremely well put.

Unless these drivers that you suggest are in the habit of 'automatic indicating' are doing so frequently without subsequently changing direction and therefore their indication does not precede a move, then I would prefer that they continue as they are.
It does not follow that those that indicate automatically only do so immediately before they move and in addition, should they do so, I would much rather have a seconds' warning of their move to none at all.

[MaxSo]

waremark said:

Is that human nature? Most drivers who come to advanced training do so with a low level of observation and planning. Getting them to change from automatic indicating to selective indicating is an aid to raising the level of observation and planning.

The other three of the last four posts are extremely well put.

Just to quote myself from an earlier post as seems relevant here too:

1. The THEORY of indicating only where someone will benefit could arguably be a useful teaching technique, BUT, I'd suggest even then the drill should be to go through that process, perhaps including commentary on why an indication is not likely to be of benefit, and then to indicate anyway. If part 1 of the drill has been completed there is no reason not to indicate anyway. It's a fail safe. No one's observation is perfect 100% of the time. There is nothing to be gained from not indicating, whereas indicating even though you *think* no one will benefit could prove to be of benefit on the inevitable occasions where normal human error occurs.
2. If most people indicate as they manoeuvre this is at least better than not indicating at all (assuming the same manoeuvre takes place and assuming the correct indicator is used!).
3. Tuition should aim to make a habit of constant observation and assessment of who would or could potentially benefit from an indication, BUT, together with an indication in any event.

[akirk]

MaxSo said:

waremark said:

Is that human nature? Most drivers who come to advanced training do so with a low level of observation and planning. Getting them to change from automatic indicating to selective indicating is an aid to raising the level of observation and planning.

The other three of the last four posts are extremely well put.

Just to quote myself from an earlier post as seems relevant here too:

1. The THEORY of indicating only where someone will benefit could arguably be a useful teaching technique, BUT, I'd suggest even then the drill should be to go through that process, perhaps including commentary on why an indication is not likely to be of benefit, and then to indicate anyway. If part 1 of the drill has been completed there is no reason not to indicate anyway. It's a fail safe. No one's observation is perfect 100% of the time. There is nothing to be gained from not indicating, whereas indicating even though you *think* no one will benefit could prove to be of benefit on the inevitable occasions where normal human error occurs.
2. If most people indicate as they manoeuvre this is at least better than not indicating at all (assuming the same manoeuvre takes place and assuming the correct indicator is used!).
3. Tuition should aim to make a habit of constant observation and assessment of who would or could potentially benefit from an indication, BUT, together with an indication in any event.

oh dear
I really can not believe that anyone would suggest that a driver should:
- explain why indicating is not likely to be of benefit
- then do it anyway
- suggest indication in any event
- suggest that there is nothing to be gained from not indicating (other than preventing an accidentperhaps!?!)

that is rather like acknowledging that it would be stupid to drive into a wall, and then promoting exactly that...

there are times when indicating can add confusion rather than clarity, so to have a default of always indicating without thought is quite simply bad driving...

Advanced Driving is primarily about adding intelligence to your driving, so doing anything just because you always do it is a bad idea - Indicate when it communicates / adds clarity, otherwise don't...

Edited by akirk on Saturday 31st March 15:11

[waremark]

MaxSo said:

2. If most people indicate as they manoeuvre this is at least better than not indicating at all (assuming the same manoeuvre takes place and assuming the correct indicator is used!).

Really?

It is time to agree to disagree and move on.

[cmaguire]

waremark said:

MaxSo said:

2. If most people indicate as they manoeuvre this is at least better than not indicating at all (assuming the same manoeuvre takes place and assuming the correct indicator is used!).

Really?

It is time to agree to disagree and move on.

Try applying point 2. to road users in general as he has done, as opposed to yourself, and there is little logic in disagreeing with it.

[anonymous-user]

MaxSo said:

Deciding whether or not an indication is likely to benefit anyone, and then doing it anyway just in case your assessment was wrong, takes the most effort of all and is therefore the best way.

Perfectly put.

Driving in South Wales today my flabber was gasted at the 50% or so of drivers changing lanes without indicating. Often not in a smooth/gradual way but a harsh swerve ... accidents waiting to happen imho. No doubt all of them will claim to have perfect situational awareness.

I do get what others are saying about not relying on an indicator and that it can be done at the wrong point in the road or the manoeuvre , but that just suggests drivers need to get better at where to use it.

[MaxSo]

Indicating anyway when a faliable assessment has concluded no one would be likely to beneift ≠ indicating anyway when the assessment has concluded to do so would likely cause confusion.

That much is hopefully obvious to most.

[MaxSo]

akirk said:

oh dear
I really can not believe that anyone would suggest that a driver should:
- explain why indicating is not likely to be of benefit
- then do it anyway
- suggest indication in any event
- suggest that there is nothing to be gained from not indicating (other than preventing an accidentperhaps!?!)

that is rather like acknowledging that it would be stupid to drive into a wall, and then promoting exactly that...

there are times when indicating can add confusion rather than clarity, so to have a default of always indicating without thought is quite simply bad driving...

Advanced Driving is primarily about adding intelligence to your driving, so doing anything just because you always do it is a bad idea - Indicate when it communicates / adds clarity, otherwise don't...

Edited by akirk on Saturday 31st March 15:11

Ok

[Len Woodman]

akirk said:

oh dear
I really can not believe that anyone would suggest that a driver should:
- explain why indicating is not likely to be of benefit
- then do it anyway
- suggest indication in any event
- suggest that there is nothing to be gained from not indicating (other than preventing an accidentperhaps!?!)

that is rather like acknowledging that it would be stupid to drive into a wall, and then promoting exactly that...

there are times when indicating can add confusion rather than clarity, so to have a default of always indicating without thought is quite simply bad driving...

Advanced Driving is primarily about adding intelligence to your driving, so doing anything just because you always do it is a bad idea - Indicate when it communicates / adds clarity, otherwise don't...

Edited by akirk on Saturday 31st March 15:11

Yes. It's so simple really.

However, because of our local (stupid) rules I do "explain if a signal is not necessary" and then "do it because the law says so" Same when moving off where the rules here say one must signal for five seconds before moving off.

[Vipers]

Len Woodman said:

Yes. It's so simple really.

However, because of our local (stupid) rules I do "explain if a signal is not necessary" and then "do it because the law says so"

Same when moving off where the rules here say one must signal for five seconds before moving off.

Interesting, where does that come, just interested.

[RobM77]

cmaguire said:

waremark said:

MaxSo said:

2. If most people indicate as they manoeuvre this is at least better than not indicating at all (assuming the same manoeuvre takes place and assuming the correct indicator is used!).

Really?

It is time to agree to disagree and move on.

Try applying point 2. to road users in general as he has done, as opposed to yourself, and there is little logic in disagreeing with it.

I'm with Mark on that one for most situations. There's no point in indicating when you've already started a manoeuvre, because everyone can see what you're doing, and it's too late for other drivers to react and plan anyway. That's the case most of the time - there are situations where it can add clarity, but usually it's pointless. Indicating is primarily a means of telling others what you are planning to do next, not what you're already doing.

[cmaguire]

RobM77 said:

I'm with Mark on that one for most situations. There's no point in indicating when you've already started a manoeuvre, because everyone can see what you're doing, and it's too late for other drivers to react and plan anyway. That's the case most of the time - there are situations where it can add clarity, but usually it's pointless. Indicating is primarily a means of telling others what you are planning to do next, not what you're already doing.

People don't tend to indicate AS they move, what we are normally referring to here is indicating perhaps a second before the move and then making the move regardless.
I would prefer to have that second of warning as there is a lot I can do in that second to mitigate their behaviour.
Without that indication they may be changing a CD and drifting in lane for all I know.