Fast Road Tuition

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Discussion

johnao

529 posts

177 months

Friday 11th August 2017
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p1esk said:
Oh, now I'm even more confused than I usually am.

On one of the ADUK driving days a few years ago, I was accompanied by two HPC members, and they advised me that when turning into a bend I should push with one hand, rather than pulling with the other hand. This is obviously at variance with the advice normally given, namely that the first steering action should be a pull.

Anyhow I tried doing what they advised and they duly pronouced it to be an improvement on what I had been doing previously. They considered it gave a smoother result. but I didn't feel there was any benefit, so the 'push first' method has not gone into my long term tool kit. I'm sticking with what works best for me. tongue out
There is a school of thought that says with fixed-grip steering one should initiate the steering input with a gentle "push" and then allow the "pull" to become dominant, or equal to the push. The idea being that the initial input will be smoother and more nuanced than with an initial pull.

There is another school of thought that says ignore all of that and just move the hands simultaneously.

One of the issues that proponents of pull-push have when attempting fixed-grip is that they will often allow the "pulling" hand to dominate during the fixed-grip input stage which can result in a sudden, rather than nuanced, steering input. The "push first" school of thought may be intended to overcome this tendency.

_Neal_

1,789 posts

153 months

Friday 11th August 2017
quotequote all
p1esk said:
On one of the ADUK driving days a few years ago, I was accompanied by two HPC members, and they advised me that when turning into a bend I should push with one hand, rather than pulling with the other hand. This is obviously at variance with the advice normally given, namely that the first steering action should be a pull.

Anyhow I tried doing what they advised and they duly pronouced it to be an improvement on what I had been doing previously. They considered it gave a smoother result. but I didn't feel there was any benefit, so the 'push first' method has not gone into my long term tool kit. I'm sticking with what works best for me. tongue out
I don't think I've heard "push first" as steering technique advice before. Presumably this was in slow-speed manoeuvring? Or were they suggesting that when cornering at speed you should also "push-pull" rather than using a fixed input style of steering?



_Neal_

1,789 posts

153 months

Friday 11th August 2017
quotequote all
johnao said:
There is a school of thought that says with fixed-grip steering one should initiate the steering input with a gentle "push" and then allow the "pull" to become dominant, or equal to the push. The idea being that the initial input will be smoother and more nuanced than with an initial pull.

There is another school of thought that says ignore all of that and just move the hands simultaneously.

One of the issues that proponents of pull-push have when attempting fixed-grip is that they will often allow the "pulling" hand to dominate during the fixed-grip input stage which can result in a sudden, rather than nuanced, steering input. The "push first" school of thought may be intended to overcome this tendency.
Interesting stuff - thanks. I'm not sure what I do when steering fixed input - definitely not a big old pull first though!

ETA - Thinking about it, when using pull push I slide the pulling hand up the wheel first, which I don't do when steering fixed input, so suspect the "trigger" for pull push just isn't there.


Edited by _Neal_ on Friday 11th August 15:16

Rick101

Original Poster:

5,608 posts

84 months

Friday 11th August 2017
quotequote all
Hmm,

This is getting a bit confusing.

For clarity, on a fast drive I prefer rotational steering and find two hands permanently on the wheel allows you to be more accurate and get more feedback.


PP steering requires only one hand with any useful grip or drive on the wheel. The non active hand is sliding either up or down to keep opposite to the active hand.

Whilst I use PP for slow drives in built up areas I have found it not as good, by a long way, as rotational for fast drive.


Edit - I'll add I use a CG lock. I've previously had harnesses but they're a pain for the road so now just use the CG lock, it's a good compromise.
I am not a fast driver and I find myself wrenching at the wheel trying to hang on through corners. Using the CG helps with that. The thought of going from two hands to one to use PP whilst cornering as speed without any form of additional restraint is quite mind boggling for me.

Maybe I'm just not that good and havn't got the right technique. I'm looking forward to finding out.

Edited by Rick101 on Friday 11th August 18:07

p1esk

4,812 posts

130 months

Friday 11th August 2017
quotequote all
_Neal_ said:
p1esk said:
On one of the ADUK driving days a few years ago, I was accompanied by two HPC members, and they advised me that when turning into a bend I should push with one hand, rather than pulling with the other hand. This is obviously at variance with the advice normally given, namely that the first steering action should be a pull.

Anyhow I tried doing what they advised and they duly pronouced it to be an improvement on what I had been doing previously. They considered it gave a smoother result. but I didn't feel there was any benefit, so the 'push first' method has not gone into my long term tool kit. I'm sticking with what works best for me. tongue out
I don't think I've heard "push first" as steering technique advice before. Presumably this was in slow-speed manoeuvring? Or were they suggesting that when cornering at speed you should also "push-pull" rather than using a fixed input style of steering?
Well it was above ten years ago so my memory may not be totally reliable, but it certainly wasn'tt in low speed manoeuvring. This was supposedly a technique for use when cornering in open road driving.

Maybe it was a case of me not being sufficiently sensitive to the niceties of steering, but at the end of the day it comes back to using whatever methods work best for the individual, and I think that's the most important consideration. I see little point in trying to push someone into using particular techniques because they are considered to be the best, if that individual can get equally good results using his own preferred (albeit possibly unorthodox) methods.

Best wishes all,
Dave - destined never to be an advanced driver. frown

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johnao

529 posts

177 months

Friday 11th August 2017
quotequote all
Rick101 said:
Hmm,

This is getting a bit confusing.

For clarity, on a fast drive I prefer rotational steering and find two hands permanently on the wheel allows you to be more accurate and get more feedback.

PP steering requires only one hand with any useful grip or drive on the wheel. The non active hand is sliding either up or down to keep opposite to the active hand.
For clarity, may I point out that fixed-grip steering is not the same as rotational steering. Rotational steering is as described in Roadcraft, at page 116, and is used for slow-speed manoeuvres. Fixed-grip is not named as such in Roadcraft but is described fully in the penultimate paragraph on page 113 of the current edition. As you quite rightly identify, fixed-grip is used for higher speed bends.




Edited by johnao on Saturday 12th August 06:31

p1esk

4,812 posts

130 months

Saturday 12th August 2017
quotequote all
johnao said:
Rick101 said:
Hmm,

This is getting a bit confusing.

For clarity, on a fast drive I prefer rotational steering and find two hands permanently on the wheel allows you to be more accurate and get more feedback.

PP steering requires only one hand with any useful grip or drive on the wheel. The non active hand is sliding either up or down to keep opposite to the active hand.
For clarity, may I point out that fixed-grip steering is not the same as rotational steering. Rotational steering is as described in Roadcraft, at page 116, and is used for slow-speed manoeuvres. Fixed-grip is not named as such in Roadcraft but is described fully in the penultimate paragraph on page 113 of the current edition. As you quite rightly identify, fixed-grip is used for higher speed bends.


Edited by johnao on Saturday 12th August 06:31
That all makes sense to me.

I've always regarded rotational steering, i.e. hand over hand steering, as being a convenient way to apply a lot of steering lock quite quickly, though I have known people to claim that they can steer just as quickly using pull-push.

So far as fixed grip steering is concerned, that seems to me best for accurate control at highish speed bends where the amount of steering lock required would normally be fairly small. If we find we need a lot of steering to be applied at a high speed bend, I'd say we're getting into dodgy territory - unless of course we happen to be Don Palmer. laugh

dvenman

113 posts

49 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
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At speed for bends, fixed grip means you don't have as much shuffling of the hands and - with the right technique, it can be both really smooth and precise. I tend to use PP at/below 20mph and fixed grip above, although I move between styles as I feel appropriate.

What *may* have been alluded to is to *hint* with the hands prior to actually moving the steering wheel in any direction. It's a small subtle thing - not a push - involving taking up any slack there may be all the way in the steering system from the pads of the fingers right the way through to the track rod ends, so that when you apply more lock it comes on instantly.

Rick101

Original Poster:

5,608 posts

84 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
Been out for a few miles today. Every day is a school day.

My latest reevaluation is that it is really quite hard to 'push'. I think that is what is putting me off PP steering.

Weetabix needed.

p1esk

4,812 posts

130 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
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dvenman said:
At speed for bends, fixed grip means you don't have as much shuffling of the hands and - with the right technique, it can be both really smooth and precise. I tend to use PP at/below 20mph and fixed grip above, although I move between styles as I feel appropriate.

What *may* have been alluded to is to *hint* with the hands prior to actually moving the steering wheel in any direction. It's a small subtle thing - not a push - involving taking up any slack there may be all the way in the steering system from the pads of the fingers right the way through to the track rod ends, so that when you apply more lock it comes on instantly.
Thanks for that.

However, I am aware of 'hinting' in a steering context, but I'm pretty sure my two HPC passengers were not thinking of that; certainly they made no reference to it. It appeared to be solely a matter of using a push first, rather than a pull, as a means of producing smoother steering.

in any case, I do not produce 'clean' versions of any of the recognised steering techniques, e.g. fixed grip, pull-push, rotational (hand over hand) etc. My steering is all a bit free and easy - so my hands move around the steering wheel quite frequently, often for no apparent reason - it's just the way it is with me. For example, on a long straight road I wouldn't keep my hands at 9-3 or 10-2 for very long, even though that would seem to be a situation in which there's no obvious reason to move them. I suppose it's because I find it more comfortable to move them around fairly freely.

Incidentally, I have noticed on some of the 'Traffic Cops' programmes, those drivers seem to use a variety of unorthodox steering methods like, for example, steering with right hand only, positioned at 4 on the clock face. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, but it's not in accordance with "Roadcraft" by the look of it.

andy_s

13,428 posts

193 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
dvenman said:
What *may* have been alluded to is to *hint* with the hands prior to actually moving the steering wheel in any direction. It's a small subtle thing - not a push - involving taking up any slack there may be all the way in the steering system from the pads of the fingers right the way through to the track rod ends, so that when you apply more lock it comes on instantly.
To 'introduce' the steering as my old instructor termed it!

waremark

2,443 posts

147 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
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p1esk said:
..... I'm pretty sure my two HPC passengers were not thinking of that; certainly they made no reference to it. It appeared to be solely a matter of using a push first, rather than a pull, as a means of producing smoother steering.

I don't think that can have been me. I am more of a pull push man than a push pull man. I have been trying to work out when I use fixed grip whether I am doing more pulling or pushing. It is fairly well balanced as a two-handed action, but I think I have one hand which is more dominant than the other and the dominant hand does a little more of the work, whether by pulling or pushing.

For passing interest, some of us went to Sweden for 'winter driving' courses - otherwise known as driving on ice. The Swedish instructors recommended holding the wheel at the bottom, at 25 to 5, and steering one handed starting with a push up, with the other hand standing by to take over if more than 300 degrees of steering was needed. This is a very quick way of introducing a lot of steering for limit handling situations. When I tried this technique on the road it didn't work for me. I didn't feel that I had either feel or precise control.

p1esk

4,812 posts

130 months

Monday 14th August 2017
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waremark said:
p1esk said:
..... I'm pretty sure my two HPC passengers were not thinking of that; certainly they made no reference to it. It appeared to be solely a matter of using a push first, rather than a pull, as a means of producing smoother steering.

I don't think that can have been me. I am more of a pull push man than a push pull man. I have been trying to work out when I use fixed grip whether I am doing more pulling or pushing. It is fairly well balanced as a two-handed action, but I think I have one hand which is more dominant than the other and the dominant hand does a little more of the work, whether by pulling or pushing.

For passing interest, some of us went to Sweden for 'winter driving' courses - otherwise known as driving on ice. The Swedish instructors recommended holding the wheel at the bottom, at 25 to 5, and steering one handed starting with a push up, with the other hand standing by to take over if more than 300 degrees of steering was needed. This is a very quick way of introducing a lot of steering for limit handling situations. When I tried this technique on the road it didn't work for me. I didn't feel that I had either feel or precise control.
No, it wasn't you, Mark, nor was it 7db, Chris Kay, Gareth or StressedDave.

wst

3,026 posts

95 months

Monday 14th August 2017
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SVS said:
Speary8 said:
Most people who take advanced driving courses are not petrol heads or even really keen drivers and need a system and syllabus to work to. This will include routines and checks ...
Unfortunately those same routines and checks, when taught inflexibly, can put off many people from advanced driving. I'd argue that it's better to develop an Associate's knowledge and understanding, as opposed to instilling routines and checks by rote.
What I've gathered from Reg Local's books is that the rote teaching is a holdover from emergency services training, where under stress you want the emergency services driver to fall back to a known high quality of driving that's been absolutely hammered into their brain. Obviously civilian drivers shouldn't be experiencing high-stress driving in quite the same fashion (except for late Saturday night trips to A&E when SWMBO loses half a knitting needle in her thigh... and that drive was honestly aiming for smoothness over anything.)

Speary8

33 posts

19 months

Tuesday 15th August 2017
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waremark said:
Does it change your interpretation to know that John is a former Chief Observer/Tutor for both IAM and RoSPA groups, a current active Masters Mentor, and achieved a Distinction on his Masters Test with a particularly high score? He just happens not to believe in doing things by rote without understanding the reasons.

Sorry for outing you John.
No not really, in that case John should appreciate the difficulty IAM and ROSPA groups have in making a diverse range of drivers better than they were. Others on this post have "assumed" that routines are inflexibly taught by IAM / Rospa groups. In my experience this is not the case. Flexibility of instruction to suit the Associate is key to getting the best from individuals.
i posted because I was annoyed at the comment about so called advanced driving experts were spouting Bo!!ocks. IMO totally uncalled for and unhelpful, even if it was tougue in cheeck

johnao

529 posts

177 months

Tuesday 15th August 2017
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Speary8 said:
waremark said:
Does it change your interpretation to know that John is a former Chief Observer/Tutor for both IAM and RoSPA groups, a current active Masters Mentor, and achieved a Distinction on his Masters Test with a particularly high score? He just happens not to believe in doing things by rote without understanding the reasons.

Sorry for outing you John.
... i posted because I was annoyed at the comment about so called advanced driving experts were spouting Bo!!ocks. IMO totally uncalled for and unhelpful, even if it was tougue in cheeck
Rule 1 of forum internet posting states... "never post in a state of annoyance". ranting

In any case, I don't think it was in the least unhelpful. In fact quite the opposite. It's been extremely helpful for the RoSPA examiner who will be told sometime in the next three years that his test candidates don't have to put their seat belts on before starting the engine whilst stationary in a McDonald's parking bay. laughlaughlaugh