Sitting close to the wheel (vs being able to "heel and toe")
Discussion
I think the idea of death by a normal functioning airbag for an adult is probably apocryphal. It is certainly exceptionally unusual. I know that in the earlier days of airbags US spec airbags were bigger than Euro spec ones, because the US spec ones were designed to restrain non-belt wearing adults, whereas Euro spec ones have always been 'Supplemental Restraint Systems' (SRS) - that is, designed as additional protection for passengers wearing seat-belts. It is likely that the larger US spec ones could do more damage than Euro spec ones.
In a car with good adjustability, a way to set the seat and wheel position is to adjust the seat base so that the clutch is fully depressed with the leg straight, then to adjust the seat back angle and the wheel so that the heel of the hand can rest on the top of the wheel without having to lean forwards. This means you can use fixed grip or rotational steering without having to lean forwards.
For someone with longer legs and shorter arms, if it is difficult to achieve this, and the angle of the seat base can be adjusted, then raising the front of the seat base absorbs a bit of the leg length.
At the end of the day, there is bound to be a small proportion of the adult population at either extreme of size and shape who will find it difficult to get comfortable while having a good position for control, but I suspect that most manufacturers design their cars to suit 95% of the population.
In a car with good adjustability, a way to set the seat and wheel position is to adjust the seat base so that the clutch is fully depressed with the leg straight, then to adjust the seat back angle and the wheel so that the heel of the hand can rest on the top of the wheel without having to lean forwards. This means you can use fixed grip or rotational steering without having to lean forwards.
For someone with longer legs and shorter arms, if it is difficult to achieve this, and the angle of the seat base can be adjusted, then raising the front of the seat base absorbs a bit of the leg length.
At the end of the day, there is bound to be a small proportion of the adult population at either extreme of size and shape who will find it difficult to get comfortable while having a good position for control, but I suspect that most manufacturers design their cars to suit 95% of the population.
waremark said:
I think the idea of death by a normal functioning airbag for an adult is probably apocryphal. It is certainly exceptionally unusual. I know that in the earlier days of airbags US spec airbags were bigger than Euro spec ones, because the US spec ones were designed to restrain non-belt wearing adults, whereas Euro spec ones have always been 'Supplemental Restraint Systems' (SRS) - that is, designed as additional protection for passengers wearing seat-belts. It is likely that the larger US spec ones could do more damage than Euro spec ones.
In a car with good adjustability, a way to set the seat and wheel position is to adjust the seat base so that the clutch is fully depressed with the leg straight, then to adjust the seat back angle and the wheel so that the heel of the hand can rest on the top of the wheel without having to lean forwards. This means you can use fixed grip or rotational steering without having to lean forwards.
For someone with longer legs and shorter arms, if it is difficult to achieve this, and the angle of the seat base can be adjusted, then raising the front of the seat base absorbs a bit of the leg length.
At the end of the day, there is bound to be a small proportion of the adult population at either extreme of size and shape who will find it difficult to get comfortable while having a good position for control, but I suspect that most manufacturers design their cars to suit 95% of the population.
I agree entirely. On your last point, I'd love to know if manufacturers actually bother with this. I find it unlikely that my proportions put me that far off the average person, and given how extremely wrong almost all cars are, I wouldn't mind betting that this is an area they glaze over. The only insight I have for this is for the Lotus Elise, which had an excellent series of programmes following the design from first conception to production. Basically they used a WWII German template called 'Agent Orange' and then, in their words, "gave the seat an extra few clicks of adjustment". This explains a lot, as I find the standard Elise virtually undrivable. With my Elise I put a spacer behind the steering wheel, which interestingly anyone who drove my car commented on how much they liked...In a car with good adjustability, a way to set the seat and wheel position is to adjust the seat base so that the clutch is fully depressed with the leg straight, then to adjust the seat back angle and the wheel so that the heel of the hand can rest on the top of the wheel without having to lean forwards. This means you can use fixed grip or rotational steering without having to lean forwards.
For someone with longer legs and shorter arms, if it is difficult to achieve this, and the angle of the seat base can be adjusted, then raising the front of the seat base absorbs a bit of the leg length.
At the end of the day, there is bound to be a small proportion of the adult population at either extreme of size and shape who will find it difficult to get comfortable while having a good position for control, but I suspect that most manufacturers design their cars to suit 95% of the population.
I agree with the safety point being made about airbags. I too, find that I can’t get comfortable with my arm distance to wheel and me foot distance to the pedals simultaneously. The on,y cars that work for me are kit cars and my VX220. In these I can stretch my legs out to operate the pedals properly ( I heel and toe all the time) whilst being close enough to have my wrist over the top of the wheel so that I full control of it.
For comparisons sake I am 5’9” tall and my inside leg is 31” so I’m hardly tall and lanky.
I believe that for packaging reasons to increase cockpit size the manufacturer put the dash and hence the steering as far forward as possible and this cause the wheel to always be too close to the pedals, then for safety reasons they probably have some legislation that they have to adhere to about seat distance from the closest point of wheel in relation to pedal distance.
I find in my daily driver a Transit Custom van that the higher my seat the relatively further away the pedals become with out increasing the wheel distance. This is the best compromise I can find but it does give a poor driving position and and I also get shoulder ache from reaching down to the Gear stick....Modern vehicles are just crap
For comparisons sake I am 5’9” tall and my inside leg is 31” so I’m hardly tall and lanky.
I believe that for packaging reasons to increase cockpit size the manufacturer put the dash and hence the steering as far forward as possible and this cause the wheel to always be too close to the pedals, then for safety reasons they probably have some legislation that they have to adhere to about seat distance from the closest point of wheel in relation to pedal distance.
I find in my daily driver a Transit Custom van that the higher my seat the relatively further away the pedals become with out increasing the wheel distance. This is the best compromise I can find but it does give a poor driving position and and I also get shoulder ache from reaching down to the Gear stick....Modern vehicles are just crap
Bennet said:
When I first decided to adopt a higher standard of driving, I moved my seat a fair bit closer to the wheel and I reduced the lean angle of the seat.
I've always had the seat as high as possible. I've never seen any reason to lower it and reduce my view out of the car. I also like to keep the seat-back upright too and as far forward as is comfortable for my legs (thanks to adjustable steering wheels). However I have recently sustained a hip injury which make this position uncomfortable. I now have to have the seat back reclined as much as I consider safe, with the seat lowered as far as possible. It's certainly taking a bit of getting used to.
I’m about 5’11” and drive with the seat as low as possible, pretty upright and fairly far forward. I also habitually heel and toe.
As others have said, it feels better the lower I am (hate sitting high). I find that with the seat back upright and seat closer my back is better supported and it’s less tiring using your arms to steer rather than your entire upper body.
Some cars are much better for getting a decent driving position but I can manage in most things, the biggest issue is usually not enough reach adjustment.
As others have said, it feels better the lower I am (hate sitting high). I find that with the seat back upright and seat closer my back is better supported and it’s less tiring using your arms to steer rather than your entire upper body.
Some cars are much better for getting a decent driving position but I can manage in most things, the biggest issue is usually not enough reach adjustment.
A chap I use to work with a few years ago was seriously injured driving a patrol car because of the deployment of the airbag. Some numpty hit the accelerator pedal instead of the brake, at a right turn at a RED set of traffic lights and hit his patrol car head on at about 30 MPH (impact speed in the region of 70 mph.) My colleague ended up with a punctured lung, ruptured spleen several broken ribs and very serious internal organ and external bruising all from the airbag deploying and striking him in the chest.
The Basics Doctor who attended the RTA stated that had his seat been two inches further forward/upright, he would be attending the Mortuary not the ICU.
In the Doctors' words,
'he was a very very lucky man who should definitely get his family to purchase him a lottery ticket!'
He was 42 at the time and ran marathons for 'FUN'
Eventually returned to work some six months later.
klan8456 said:
Pica-Pica said:
Well, even if you are 'just browsing' in a car showroom, don't people always adjust seat and wheel? If there is no rake or reach adjustment, that is a reject. Where are these cars with no reach adjustment?
Fiat 500 I'm afraid, which knocks it out for me (at 6'4")
I tried to test drive one for my ex and I actually couldn't get behind the wheel to drive it. I'm a slim build - it was just such a bad driving position and without much space for the legs to bend double around the steering column. I think I got one leg in, but then couldn't get the other in and sit behind the steering wheel. I was quite disappointed as I really like the design etc. a said:
I've never felt the need to heel-and-toe so can't comment on that. But I have a very relaxed/laid-back driving position and I don't feel it takes anything away from my ability to use the controls...?
Clutch fully down = very slight bend in knee
Arms straight out = wrists touching steering wheel
I don't know why you'd want to be any closer than that.
I agree with you.Clutch fully down = very slight bend in knee
Arms straight out = wrists touching steering wheel
I don't know why you'd want to be any closer than that.
If we sit too close to the steering wheel our freedom to use a good range of arm movements may be restricted, and thus limit our ability to be flexible and fluid in the way we handle the steering wheel. For most purposes this may not matter, but in a difficult situation, e.g. slips and slides etc., it could be a handicap to controlling the car.
Incidentally, I note that the OP refers to 'non-enthusiasts' favouring a straight arm position. I wouldn't have described Stirling Moss as a non-enthusiast.
p1esk said:
a said:
I've never felt the need to heel-and-toe so can't comment on that. But I have a very relaxed/laid-back driving position and I don't feel it takes anything away from my ability to use the controls...?
Clutch fully down = very slight bend in knee
Arms straight out = wrists touching steering wheel
I don't know why you'd want to be any closer than that.
I agree with you.Clutch fully down = very slight bend in knee
Arms straight out = wrists touching steering wheel
I don't know why you'd want to be any closer than that.
If we sit too close to the steering wheel our freedom to use a good range of arm movements may be restricted, and thus limit our ability to be flexible and fluid in the way we handle the steering wheel. For most purposes this may not matter, but in a difficult situation, e.g. slips and slides etc., it could be a handicap to controlling the car.
Incidentally, I note that the OP refers to 'non-enthusiasts' favouring a straight arm position. I wouldn't have described Stirling Moss as a non-enthusiast.
For example, with my leg slightly bent full down on the clutch, most cars have their fully extended (if applicable) steering wheel top somewhere between an inch from the end of my outstretched fingers at worst, to the wheel rim in my palm at best (with the wheel fully extended towards me, where that feature is available). To avoid shoulder problems (which result when the shoulder has to lift off the seat back to steer), I adjust the seat for wheel reach as a priority, but this sadly results in leg and ankle pain because the pedals end up being far too close.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 19th February 11:37
RobM77 said:
What "a said" is missing is that what he quotes, whilst correct, is impossible for many people to achieve.
For example, with my leg slightly bent full down on the clutch, most cars have their fully extended (if applicable) steering wheel top somewhere between an inch from the end of my outstretched fingers at worst, to the wheel rim in my palm at best (with the wheel fully extended towards me, where that feature is available). To avoid shoulder problems (which result when the shoulder has to lift off the seat back to steer), I adjust the seat for wheel reach as a priority, but this sadly results in leg and ankle pain because the pedals end up being far too close.
It sounds as though you need to grow your arms a bit Rob.For example, with my leg slightly bent full down on the clutch, most cars have their fully extended (if applicable) steering wheel top somewhere between an inch from the end of my outstretched fingers at worst, to the wheel rim in my palm at best (with the wheel fully extended towards me, where that feature is available). To avoid shoulder problems (which result when the shoulder has to lift off the seat back to steer), I adjust the seat for wheel reach as a priority, but this sadly results in leg and ankle pain because the pedals end up being far too close.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 19th February 11:37
A little more seriously, it perhaps illustrates quite how difficult it is to make cars ergonomically suitable for the full range of human shapes and sizes. One immediately thinks of percentiles of height, but driving positions also have to work for variations in all other aspects of human proportions. In the old days you could have fitted a deeply dished steering wheel to bring it 5 cm closer to you, but with airbag equipped multi-function wheels that is probably not a realistic solution. For me, happily, it is very unusual to find a road car in which I cannot find a suitable driving position. It is so rare that I remember an example from about 25 years ago - the offending car was a Lotus Esprit, which must have been designed for very small people. Because I couldn't fit comfortably I found driving it really difficult.
I started off fairly close and upright but have moved to a more relaxed position over the years. But I have found certain vehicles do like to impose a certain position on the driver, I find that most FWD vehicles I have driven tend to have me sitting more upright and closer to the wheel. However too upright and close to the wheel and I find operating the clutch awkward or uncomfortable. And in fact just the age of the clutch and its affect on biting point will see me change position again. The other thing I find has a bearing on driving position is a top hinge vs bottom hinge throttle. Also, 'sit up and beg' isn't great for longer trips - I can't imagine spending a whole day sitting like that.
waremark said:
RobM77 said:
What "a said" is missing is that what he quotes, whilst correct, is impossible for many people to achieve.
For example, with my leg slightly bent full down on the clutch, most cars have their fully extended (if applicable) steering wheel top somewhere between an inch from the end of my outstretched fingers at worst, to the wheel rim in my palm at best (with the wheel fully extended towards me, where that feature is available). To avoid shoulder problems (which result when the shoulder has to lift off the seat back to steer), I adjust the seat for wheel reach as a priority, but this sadly results in leg and ankle pain because the pedals end up being far too close.
It sounds as though you need to grow your arms a bit Rob.For example, with my leg slightly bent full down on the clutch, most cars have their fully extended (if applicable) steering wheel top somewhere between an inch from the end of my outstretched fingers at worst, to the wheel rim in my palm at best (with the wheel fully extended towards me, where that feature is available). To avoid shoulder problems (which result when the shoulder has to lift off the seat back to steer), I adjust the seat for wheel reach as a priority, but this sadly results in leg and ankle pain because the pedals end up being far too close.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 19th February 11:37
A little more seriously, it perhaps illustrates quite how difficult it is to make cars ergonomically suitable for the full range of human shapes and sizes. One immediately thinks of percentiles of height, but driving positions also have to work for variations in all other aspects of human proportions. In the old days you could have fitted a deeply dished steering wheel to bring it 5 cm closer to you, but with airbag equipped multi-function wheels that is probably not a realistic solution. For me, happily, it is very unusual to find a road car in which I cannot find a suitable driving position. It is so rare that I remember an example from about 25 years ago - the offending car was a Lotus Esprit, which must have been designed for very small people. Because I couldn't fit comfortably I found driving it really difficult.
I think there's some truth in that, but I do believe that manufacturers need to try harder - some cars are just ridiculous. For a guy like me of 1.77m/5'10" to not physically be able to drive cars like the Fiat 500 and Micra and not get comfortable in the majority of production cars is rather extreme. There are cars I'm very comfortable in, such as the Mercedes SLK, and although I've never driven one, I suspect from seeing them that I'd be fine in an Aston or McLaren.
I too tried an Esprit once and I found that I had the seat as far back as it'll go, which for a normal size guy is quite surprising, but I guess it was still the same basic car as it was decades earlier. Mind you, in my Z4 Coupé I had that seat only an inch from the furthest back it would go.
RobM77 said:
...I do believe that manufacturers need to try harder - some cars are just ridiculous. For a guy like me of 1.77m/5'10" to not physically be able to drive cars like the Fiat 500 and Micra and not get comfortable in the majority of production cars is rather extreme.
That seems surprising then, because I'm 5' 10" and I had no difficulty with the Nissan Micra. Still, it's obviously not simply a matter of our height, there's all manner of other variables as well. You must have an odd combination of dimensions, Rob. 
p1esk said:
RobM77 said:
...I do believe that manufacturers need to try harder - some cars are just ridiculous. For a guy like me of 1.77m/5'10" to not physically be able to drive cars like the Fiat 500 and Micra and not get comfortable in the majority of production cars is rather extreme.
That seems surprising then, because I'm 5' 10" and I had no difficulty with the Nissan Micra. Still, it's obviously not simply a matter of our height, there's all manner of other variables as well. You must have an odd combination of dimensions, Rob. RobM77 said:
p1esk said:
RobM77 said:
...I do believe that manufacturers need to try harder - some cars are just ridiculous. For a guy like me of 1.77m/5'10" to not physically be able to drive cars like the Fiat 500 and Micra and not get comfortable in the majority of production cars is rather extreme.
That seems surprising then, because I'm 5' 10" and I had no difficulty with the Nissan Micra. Still, it's obviously not simply a matter of our height, there's all manner of other variables as well. You must have an odd combination of dimensions, Rob. REB173 said:
Just sit where your most comfortable, everyone is different, there's no right or wrong.
Someone else's opinion of where you should sit is just that, someone else's opinion.
Actually there is a right and wrong. leaning back (reclining) causes more injuries in low speed collisions and more fatalities in high speed ones. This is because the neck is craning forward and has more travel to hit the headrest. Neck and head injuries are the killer in collisions. Someone else's opinion of where you should sit is just that, someone else's opinion.
The best (safest) way to sit is to be sitting upright with your wrist resting on the top (12 o'clock) of the steering wheel.
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