Sitting close to the wheel (vs being able to "heel and toe")
Discussion
captain_cynic said:
REB173 said:
Just sit where your most comfortable, everyone is different, there's no right or wrong.
Someone else's opinion of where you should sit is just that, someone else's opinion.
Actually there is a right and wrong. leaning back (reclining) causes more injuries in low speed collisions and more fatalities in high speed ones. This is because the neck is craning forward and has more travel to hit the headrest. Neck and head injuries are the killer in collisions. Someone else's opinion of where you should sit is just that, someone else's opinion.
The best (safest) way to sit is to be sitting upright with your wrist resting on the top (12 o'clock) of the steering wheel.
captain_cynic said:
Actually there is a right and wrong. leaning back (reclining) causes more injuries in low speed collisions and more fatalities in high speed ones. This is because the neck is craning forward and has more travel to hit the headrest. Neck and head injuries are the killer in collisions.
The best (safest) way to sit is to be sitting upright with your wrist resting on the top (12 o'clock) of the steering wheel.
I've found using my hands at 9 and 3 to be.....oh, I see what you mean..ahem.The best (safest) way to sit is to be sitting upright with your wrist resting on the top (12 o'clock) of the steering wheel.
RobM77 said:
captain_cynic said:
REB173 said:
Just sit where your most comfortable, everyone is different, there's no right or wrong.
Someone else's opinion of where you should sit is just that, someone else's opinion.
Actually there is a right and wrong. leaning back (reclining) causes more injuries in low speed collisions and more fatalities in high speed ones. This is because the neck is craning forward and has more travel to hit the headrest. Neck and head injuries are the killer in collisions. Someone else's opinion of where you should sit is just that, someone else's opinion.
The best (safest) way to sit is to be sitting upright with your wrist resting on the top (12 o'clock) of the steering wheel.
One of the reasons I love the seats in my E38 so much is that the upper back tilts independently of the lower back, plus the bases tilt as well, so I can get a lot of thigh support, be leaning backwards but still get support for my shoulders - it's more of a cradle than a chair! I just wish my living room furniture was as comfy... Of course there were no manual E38s in RHD so I can't tell you how good a driving position it is for heel n' toe - but then with the way the pedals are in BMWs it tends to be more of a 'roll side of foot' movement anyway.
vsonix said:
RobM77 said:
captain_cynic said:
REB173 said:
Just sit where your most comfortable, everyone is different, there's no right or wrong.
Someone else's opinion of where you should sit is just that, someone else's opinion.
Actually there is a right and wrong. leaning back (reclining) causes more injuries in low speed collisions and more fatalities in high speed ones. This is because the neck is craning forward and has more travel to hit the headrest. Neck and head injuries are the killer in collisions. Someone else's opinion of where you should sit is just that, someone else's opinion.
The best (safest) way to sit is to be sitting upright with your wrist resting on the top (12 o'clock) of the steering wheel.
One of the reasons I love the seats in my E38 so much is that the upper back tilts independently of the lower back, plus the bases tilt as well, so I can get a lot of thigh support, be leaning backwards but still get support for my shoulders - it's more of a cradle than a chair! I just wish my living room furniture was as comfy... Of course there were no manual E38s in RHD so I can't tell you how good a driving position it is for heel n' toe - but then with the way the pedals are in BMWs it tends to be more of a 'roll side of foot' movement anyway.
vsonix said:
Yerp although they don't always move, especially on smaller/cheaper cars.
One of the reasons I love the seats in my E38 so much is that the upper back tilts independently of the lower back, plus the bases tilt as well, so I can get a lot of thigh support, be leaning backwards but still get support for my shoulders - it's more of a cradle than a chair! I just wish my living room furniture was as comfy... Of course there were no manual E38s in RHD so I can't tell you how good a driving position it is for heel n' toe - but then with the way the pedals are in BMWs it tends to be more of a 'roll side of foot' movement anyway.
Can't you heel and toe when you paddle shift?One of the reasons I love the seats in my E38 so much is that the upper back tilts independently of the lower back, plus the bases tilt as well, so I can get a lot of thigh support, be leaning backwards but still get support for my shoulders - it's more of a cradle than a chair! I just wish my living room furniture was as comfy... Of course there were no manual E38s in RHD so I can't tell you how good a driving position it is for heel n' toe - but then with the way the pedals are in BMWs it tends to be more of a 'roll side of foot' movement anyway.
PhilAsia said:
vsonix said:
Yerp although they don't always move, especially on smaller/cheaper cars.
One of the reasons I love the seats in my E38 so much is that the upper back tilts independently of the lower back, plus the bases tilt as well, so I can get a lot of thigh support, be leaning backwards but still get support for my shoulders - it's more of a cradle than a chair! I just wish my living room furniture was as comfy... Of course there were no manual E38s in RHD so I can't tell you how good a driving position it is for heel n' toe - but then with the way the pedals are in BMWs it tends to be more of a 'roll side of foot' movement anyway.
Can't you heel and toe when you paddle shift?One of the reasons I love the seats in my E38 so much is that the upper back tilts independently of the lower back, plus the bases tilt as well, so I can get a lot of thigh support, be leaning backwards but still get support for my shoulders - it's more of a cradle than a chair! I just wish my living room furniture was as comfy... Of course there were no manual E38s in RHD so I can't tell you how good a driving position it is for heel n' toe - but then with the way the pedals are in BMWs it tends to be more of a 'roll side of foot' movement anyway.
RobM77 said:
PhilAsia said:
vsonix said:
Yerp although they don't always move, especially on smaller/cheaper cars.
One of the reasons I love the seats in my E38 so much is that the upper back tilts independently of the lower back, plus the bases tilt as well, so I can get a lot of thigh support, be leaning backwards but still get support for my shoulders - it's more of a cradle than a chair! I just wish my living room furniture was as comfy... Of course there were no manual E38s in RHD so I can't tell you how good a driving position it is for heel n' toe - but then with the way the pedals are in BMWs it tends to be more of a 'roll side of foot' movement anyway.
Can't you heel and toe when you paddle shift?One of the reasons I love the seats in my E38 so much is that the upper back tilts independently of the lower back, plus the bases tilt as well, so I can get a lot of thigh support, be leaning backwards but still get support for my shoulders - it's more of a cradle than a chair! I just wish my living room furniture was as comfy... Of course there were no manual E38s in RHD so I can't tell you how good a driving position it is for heel n' toe - but then with the way the pedals are in BMWs it tends to be more of a 'roll side of foot' movement anyway.
vsonix said:
No paddle shift on my E38 anyway - it's a 1997 and has the same 'steptronic' style transmission as E39, E46 etc. I have to say considering the age of the car it's a very good auto box, it's even smart enough to shift into lower gears to apply engine braking downhill if you gently touch the brake pedal etc.
Im unfamiliar with a steptronic auto box. Does it cause a problem if you manually select a lower "hold" gear and rev-match to achieve a smoother change?PhilAsia said:
Im unfamiliar with a steptronic auto box. Does it cause a problem if you manually select a lower "hold" gear and rev-match to achieve a smoother change?
I decided to do some googling. Apparently, according to this site it can be rev-matched, or perhaps it's only later models that can be...?http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44...
PhilAsia said:
vsonix said:
No paddle shift on my E38 anyway - it's a 1997 and has the same 'steptronic' style transmission as E39, E46 etc. I have to say considering the age of the car it's a very good auto box, it's even smart enough to shift into lower gears to apply engine braking downhill if you gently touch the brake pedal etc.
Im unfamiliar with a steptronic auto box. Does it cause a problem if you manually select a lower "hold" gear and rev-match to achieve a smoother change?vsonix said:
It's not something I've ever tried, it's a 20 year old 7er - it gets driven briskly enough but I tend to use Steptronic mode more for saving fuel when driving round town by coasting in higher gears, ascending/descending steep hills or just to make roundabout into dual carriageway or on-ramps a bit more fun. I don't think I'm ever likely to hustle through twisties etc in a way that requires blipping the throttle seem appropriate. I have smaller, manual cars for those sort of shenanigans...
Introducing a little gas just makes the change sweeter, timed correctly.In excess it can cause the oil to overheat, which is not advisable.
The choice is yours...
Edited by PhilAsia on Tuesday 27th February 07:05
PhilAsia said:
vsonix said:
It's not something I've ever tried, it's a 20 year old 7er - it gets driven briskly enough but I tend to use Steptronic mode more for saving fuel when driving round town by coasting in higher gears, ascending/descending steep hills or just to make roundabout into dual carriageway or on-ramps a bit more fun. I don't think I'm ever likely to hustle through twisties etc in a way that requires blipping the throttle seem appropriate. I have smaller, manual cars for those sort of shenanigans...
Introducing a little gas just makes the change sweeter, timed correctly.In excess it can cause the oil to overheat, which is not advisable.
The choice is yours...
Edited by PhilAsia on Tuesday 27th February 07:05
I'd find it more useful on my E36 Auto tbh
vsonix said:
I'll give it a go, you never know it might be worth doing.
I'd find it more useful on my E36 Auto tbh
I've never driven either, but given your description you probably will.I'd find it more useful on my E36 Auto tbh
I use it prior to descents, hold through bends/ roundabouts, anticipation of overtakes etc, and it it basically a sustained rev gearchange where no change in speed is required. Something I'm sure you're very familiar with.
Enjoy!
The driving positions mentioned in this thread have their roots in motor racing.
The reason for older race cars having the driver sit up close to the wheel was to be able to provide sufficient leverage on the steering wheel in the days before power steering made this un-necessary........ This can still be seen today in NASCAR whose drivers sit up close to the wheel for this very reason.
The reason for the introduction of horizontal driving positions was to present a lower frontal area at the front of the car when aerodynamics became important to the design of racing cars. This design was first introduced by Lotus, whose driver - Jim Clark - took some time to adjust to it before it became standard practice.
The first Grand Prix racing driver to use the laid-back arms-outstretched relaxed style was Farina, whose style was copied by Stirling Moss, and this pre-dated the horizontal style by around 15 years.
Current F1 cars are designed so that the drivers' legs are almost at the height of their heads - I can't see this being emulated by drivers of road cars any time soon.
As far as "heel & toeing" is concerned, it is totally un-necessary on any car fitted with a synchromesh gearbox. There might be the odd occasion (like an Alpine pass) when needing to select 1st gear while moving, but otherwise it is a complete waste of time (and fuel.)
,
The reason for older race cars having the driver sit up close to the wheel was to be able to provide sufficient leverage on the steering wheel in the days before power steering made this un-necessary........ This can still be seen today in NASCAR whose drivers sit up close to the wheel for this very reason.
The reason for the introduction of horizontal driving positions was to present a lower frontal area at the front of the car when aerodynamics became important to the design of racing cars. This design was first introduced by Lotus, whose driver - Jim Clark - took some time to adjust to it before it became standard practice.
The first Grand Prix racing driver to use the laid-back arms-outstretched relaxed style was Farina, whose style was copied by Stirling Moss, and this pre-dated the horizontal style by around 15 years.
Current F1 cars are designed so that the drivers' legs are almost at the height of their heads - I can't see this being emulated by drivers of road cars any time soon.
As far as "heel & toeing" is concerned, it is totally un-necessary on any car fitted with a synchromesh gearbox. There might be the odd occasion (like an Alpine pass) when needing to select 1st gear while moving, but otherwise it is a complete waste of time (and fuel.)
,
PhilAsia said:
captain_cynic said:
Actually there is a right and wrong. leaning back (reclining) causes more injuries in low speed collisions and more fatalities in high speed ones. This is because the neck is craning forward and has more travel to hit the headrest. Neck and head injuries are the killer in collisions.
The best (safest) way to sit is to be sitting upright with your wrist resting on the top (12 o'clock) of the steering wheel.
I've found using my hands at 9 and 3 to be.....oh, I see what you mean..ahem.The best (safest) way to sit is to be sitting upright with your wrist resting on the top (12 o'clock) of the steering wheel.
eAyeAddio said:
The driving positions mentioned in this thread have their roots in motor racing.
The reason for older race cars having the driver sit up close to the wheel was to be able to provide sufficient leverage on the steering wheel in the days before power steering made this un-necessary........ This can still be seen today in NASCAR whose drivers sit up close to the wheel for this very reason.
The reason for the introduction of horizontal driving positions was to present a lower frontal area at the front of the car when aerodynamics became important to the design of racing cars. This design was first introduced by Lotus, whose driver - Jim Clark - took some time to adjust to it before it became standard practice.
The first Grand Prix racing driver to use the laid-back arms-outstretched relaxed style was Farina, whose style was copied by Stirling Moss, and this pre-dated the horizontal style by around 15 years.
Current F1 cars are designed so that the drivers' legs are almost at the height of their heads - I can't see this being emulated by drivers of road cars any time soon.
As far as "heel & toeing" is concerned, it is totally un-necessary on any car fitted with a synchromesh gearbox. There might be the odd occasion (like an Alpine pass) when needing to select 1st gear while moving, but otherwise it is a complete waste of time (and fuel.)
,
Well that last bit isn't true is it. Even on the racing simulator I play, when the revs dip below the revs the car would be at in the gear you are changing into, the car lurches when you release the clutch as the gearbox increases it's rpm to the engine rpm and upsets the balance, and in a RWD car this most of the time pitches the car into oversteerThe reason for older race cars having the driver sit up close to the wheel was to be able to provide sufficient leverage on the steering wheel in the days before power steering made this un-necessary........ This can still be seen today in NASCAR whose drivers sit up close to the wheel for this very reason.
The reason for the introduction of horizontal driving positions was to present a lower frontal area at the front of the car when aerodynamics became important to the design of racing cars. This design was first introduced by Lotus, whose driver - Jim Clark - took some time to adjust to it before it became standard practice.
The first Grand Prix racing driver to use the laid-back arms-outstretched relaxed style was Farina, whose style was copied by Stirling Moss, and this pre-dated the horizontal style by around 15 years.
Current F1 cars are designed so that the drivers' legs are almost at the height of their heads - I can't see this being emulated by drivers of road cars any time soon.
As far as "heel & toeing" is concerned, it is totally un-necessary on any car fitted with a synchromesh gearbox. There might be the odd occasion (like an Alpine pass) when needing to select 1st gear while moving, but otherwise it is a complete waste of time (and fuel.)
,
eAyeAddio said:
...As far as "heel & toeing" is concerned, it is totally un-necessary on any car fitted with a synchromesh gearbox. There might be the odd occasion (like an Alpine pass) when needing to select 1st gear while moving, but otherwise it is a complete waste of time (and fuel.)
I think you're actually thinking about double declutching there. With Heel and Toe you can use either DDC or the more conventional single declutch to match the revs. It's even possible to do clutchless changes, but that level of skill is somewhat above my pay grade.As for Heel and Toe, it's completely unnecessary on the road. Unless, that is, you want to be smooth, make best progess or maintain maximum stability.
eAyeAddio said:
The driving positions mentioned in this thread have their roots in motor racing.
The reason for older race cars having the driver sit up close to the wheel was to be able to provide sufficient leverage on the steering wheel in the days before power steering made this un-necessary........ This can still be seen today in NASCAR whose drivers sit up close to the wheel for this very reason.
The reason for the introduction of horizontal driving positions was to present a lower frontal area at the front of the car when aerodynamics became important to the design of racing cars. This design was first introduced by Lotus, whose driver - Jim Clark - took some time to adjust to it before it became standard practice.
The first Grand Prix racing driver to use the laid-back arms-outstretched relaxed style was Farina, whose style was copied by Stirling Moss, and this pre-dated the horizontal style by around 15 years.
Current F1 cars are designed so that the drivers' legs are almost at the height of their heads - I can't see this being emulated by drivers of road cars any time soon.
As far as "heel & toeing" is concerned, it is totally un-necessary on any car fitted with a synchromesh gearbox. There might be the odd occasion (like an Alpine pass) when needing to select 1st gear while moving, but otherwise it is a complete waste of time (and fuel.)
,
Two comments if I may:The reason for older race cars having the driver sit up close to the wheel was to be able to provide sufficient leverage on the steering wheel in the days before power steering made this un-necessary........ This can still be seen today in NASCAR whose drivers sit up close to the wheel for this very reason.
The reason for the introduction of horizontal driving positions was to present a lower frontal area at the front of the car when aerodynamics became important to the design of racing cars. This design was first introduced by Lotus, whose driver - Jim Clark - took some time to adjust to it before it became standard practice.
The first Grand Prix racing driver to use the laid-back arms-outstretched relaxed style was Farina, whose style was copied by Stirling Moss, and this pre-dated the horizontal style by around 15 years.
Current F1 cars are designed so that the drivers' legs are almost at the height of their heads - I can't see this being emulated by drivers of road cars any time soon.
As far as "heel & toeing" is concerned, it is totally un-necessary on any car fitted with a synchromesh gearbox. There might be the odd occasion (like an Alpine pass) when needing to select 1st gear while moving, but otherwise it is a complete waste of time (and fuel.)
,
1) The preferred driving position that I have described is indeed similar to a racing car. However, my reasoning is not linked to any that you have given. I just want to be close enough to the wheel that I’m not straining arm, shoulder and upper back muscles to steer, which I am in most modern road cars. I also want my knees higher than my hips because it lessens the pressure on the lumbar spine - it may be better for one’s posture and muscles to sit upright, but for hours behind the wheel muscles alone will never hold you, it’ll be down to the spine, and sitting upright like that is painful.
2) Rev matching is about more than just meshing of gears. The differential engine speeds cause a surge in engine braking, and whilst you won’t be near threshold on the public road, so you won’t crash by not rev matching, it’s pretty obvious that staying as far away from threshold as possible is a good thing.
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