Advanced / Police Driver Training
Discussion
Believe me a civilian who is passionate enough to continue to improve their driving ability by training and practicing to achieve driving certificates whether IAM, ROSPA or whatever in their own time will quite possibly be every bit as good as JL who at the end of the day is a ten a penny civvy instructor at a very well respected driving school. I can’t tell you the difference in standard of the standard and advanced driving courses at Hendon. Please someone back me up on this one!
Oh dear.
John Lyon is regarded as one of the best road drivers in the UK. His methods may sometimes be controversial but there are few that do not respect him as a wheelman.
I think you need a few sessions with the man to understand. Also might be worth having a look at his recent book to get an idea of who he is.
If he read this I'd love to see his reaction. Fortunately as I mentioned above he is incapable of using a computer..
John Lyon is regarded as one of the best road drivers in the UK. His methods may sometimes be controversial but there are few that do not respect him as a wheelman.
I think you need a few sessions with the man to understand. Also might be worth having a look at his recent book to get an idea of who he is.
If he read this I'd love to see his reaction. Fortunately as I mentioned above he is incapable of using a computer..
M Barrett said:
With the upmost respect, rubbish. Go out with a fast Class 1 on form you will see exactly what I mean!
I suspect you don't know much about JL's CV or driving ability. Am I correct? Dont you think you should know a bit more about the person you are writing about before you make comments like these?
I never said that IAM or ROSPA drivers were better than him. What I was trying to get across was that anyone who has natural talent and passion for driving whether male or female can become a very very good driver with the correct training and effort, Police or civilian.
The only reason Police advanced drivers become better is due to the fact they have had a huge amount of money invested into them, in my day for six weeks solid, 30 full days!
That was a long time to get things right and then they probably spend 90% of there working life driving, hopefully to the system that they were taught and a high percentage of that time at high speed whether on emergency calls or pursuits, blimey they should be good.
The only reason Police advanced drivers become better is due to the fact they have had a huge amount of money invested into them, in my day for six weeks solid, 30 full days!
That was a long time to get things right and then they probably spend 90% of there working life driving, hopefully to the system that they were taught and a high percentage of that time at high speed whether on emergency calls or pursuits, blimey they should be good.
M Barrett said:
To be honest if this JL ever posts controversial items he should be completely ignored as he is not in a position to comment on driving. I would suggest that people on this forum who have taken the initiative to partake in the IAM or ROSPA etc are more than likely far better drivers than him.
M Barrett said:
... To be honest if this JL {John Lyon} ever posts controversial items he should be completely ignored as he is not in a position to comment on driving. I would suggest that people on this forum who have taken the initiative to partake in the IAM or ROSPA etc are more than likely far better drivers than him.
Wow, that is probably the most crass posting I've ever read on this forum... and that's saying something.Anyone contributing to this forum has to realise that there are a lot of very experienced police and civilian drivers contributing to these posts and therefore, if a contributor is to earn the respect of the rest of the forum community, he must ensure that what he posts will stand up to scrutiny. It is clear that you have no knowledge of John Lyon's driving ability and achievements and therefore the above noted quote, unfortunately, does not bear scrutiny.
It isn't sufficient just to write about how good a driver you are; what you write has to have some credibility. The above noted quote has no credibility whatsoever.
Here we go again with another ridiculous post, yes maybe I did make a mistake and say IAM or ROSPA were almost certainly better than JL for which I apologise. What I should have said was that they could well be better which is true. This subject is suppose to be advanced driving and you are again trying to discredit all my comments about driving because of minor typos! I am not saying that I am the best driver at all, probably far from it. Just get off your high horse, stop hero worshiping an old civvy who may well be a good driver or ‘wheelsman’ as someone on the forum refers to him as (an old term used by armed robbers back in the day referring to their get away driver) He is probably a very good driver but just get on with the subject, ADVANCED DRIVING. You are sounding like frustrated legal reps or Solicitors.
M Barrett said:
Here we go again with another ridiculous post, yes maybe I did make a mistake and say IAM or ROSPA were almost certainly better than JL for which I apologise. What I should have said was that they could well be better which is true. This subject is suppose to be advanced driving and you are again trying to discredit all my comments about driving because of minor typos! I am not saying that I am the best driver at all, probably far from it. Just get off your high horse, stop hero worshiping an old civvy who may well be a good driver or ‘wheelsman’ as someone on the forum refers to him as (an old term used by armed robbers back in the day referring to their get away driver) He is probably a very good driver but just get on with the subject, ADVANCED DRIVING. You are sounding like frustrated legal reps or Solicitors.
That is beyond parody. Even I can't think of anything to write... and that's saying something! 
DocSteve – very disappointing that you had to bring John Lyon’s name in to this silly debacle. John does not use a computer, which for me is good as I have to practice writing to him! But he won’t know and won’t be bothered about what is written about him.
M Barrett – have you completed riding courses for the high horse You ride?
I think StressedDave pointed out some years ago that John and another former HPC Co-driver had both completed advanced courses at Hendon as a pilot program. I have known John since 1973 and he has never specifically stated that he was an “Advanced” instructor at Hendon.
Certainly, John spent a lot of time with the advanced instructors at Hendon who were interested in his competition and HPC experience under John Miles – exchanging notes and experiences. Johnny Johnson and Derek Van Petergem were, I believe two of these instructors. I remember after taking a driving assessment with a Sgt Hook he talked positively about John when I told him that I had completed around 150 hours with John.
In my opinion those that don’t like John, the only reason is that he has hit their egos full on. There are, as I’m sure we can see many drivers (mostly male) who take advanced tests (or HPC First Drive) because they want to be told how good they already are.
As a BSM manager recruiting potential instructors years ago I remember two Class Is who did not get a job offer because their driving was crap! One complained about me and even threatened me – but still didn’t get a job!
By the way – I have just completed the online Roadcraft course and have a certificate to prove it! I’m probably the first to do so in Oz and I am disappointed that there were no questions relating to kangaroos and wombats when on a ‘shout’! I know that there are wallabys on the York moors so watch out!
Len - Sydney
M Barrett – have you completed riding courses for the high horse You ride?
I think StressedDave pointed out some years ago that John and another former HPC Co-driver had both completed advanced courses at Hendon as a pilot program. I have known John since 1973 and he has never specifically stated that he was an “Advanced” instructor at Hendon.
Certainly, John spent a lot of time with the advanced instructors at Hendon who were interested in his competition and HPC experience under John Miles – exchanging notes and experiences. Johnny Johnson and Derek Van Petergem were, I believe two of these instructors. I remember after taking a driving assessment with a Sgt Hook he talked positively about John when I told him that I had completed around 150 hours with John.
In my opinion those that don’t like John, the only reason is that he has hit their egos full on. There are, as I’m sure we can see many drivers (mostly male) who take advanced tests (or HPC First Drive) because they want to be told how good they already are.
As a BSM manager recruiting potential instructors years ago I remember two Class Is who did not get a job offer because their driving was crap! One complained about me and even threatened me – but still didn’t get a job!
By the way – I have just completed the online Roadcraft course and have a certificate to prove it! I’m probably the first to do so in Oz and I am disappointed that there were no questions relating to kangaroos and wombats when on a ‘shout’! I know that there are wallabys on the York moors so watch out!
Len - Sydney
Well Len, we really don’t want to start comparing driving schools, the basic driving test with advanced driving. For a short nine month period when I left the Police I was a DSA driving examiner until I got so bored I left and started a business. The basic driving test in the UK is a very simple procedure where you have to satisfy a few very easy manoeuvres and drive for a period of time, 35 minutes ish at a really poor standard but not forgetting observations, approaching hazard and blind spots checks etc to pass. You can easily pass this test being a dreadful driver! I did my training on a course of 12 where all but me and an ex services were ex driving instructors and I can tell you I didn’t find it easy, it had no bearing on advanced driving at all so I’m not surprised the the Class 1’s you tested were not ideal. To say that they were crap I feel is probably harsh. In the UK amongst the driving examiners, schools and instructors BSM are commonly referred to as British School of Morons.
M Barrett - they were crap because they were so aggressive - like many seen on the British TV programs. Sadly that is the key problem with many British police drivers - and there's plenty of advice given in Roadcraft - where's the coaching?
Perhaps there are others (not M Barrett) on this forum who might give me some sensible reaction to this last comment.
BSM did train for the industry so I guess many instructors started off as morons. Most instructors left BSM only for three things - they didn't like being told to do something, didn't like the fact that customers could complain about them or they thought they could make more money on their own - all fair reasons.
Len - Sydney
Perhaps there are others (not M Barrett) on this forum who might give me some sensible reaction to this last comment.
BSM did train for the industry so I guess many instructors started off as morons. Most instructors left BSM only for three things - they didn't like being told to do something, didn't like the fact that customers could complain about them or they thought they could make more money on their own - all fair reasons.
Len - Sydney
Len, another ridiculous post. Roadcraft the Police drivers manual was produced by the Police Federation. To say that Police advanced drivers are aggressive is ridiculous as I’m sure most people on this forum would agree, particularly JL himself. Oh and a bit of advice Len, don’t take too much notice of British television programmes, they are made to entertain! You probably think Dennis Waterman is a Class 1.
Len - yes apologies as I had not expected things to go this way... Mind you, as you and I know John would be more than willing and capable of entering into a robust discussion on his own.
Not that this one appears worthy of much more debate in my view. I don't really know what more can be constructively said.
Not that this one appears worthy of much more debate in my view. I don't really know what more can be constructively said.
Isn't it just so disappointing when an ex-Class 1 driver comes onto a generally constructive forum like this and post such ill informed, pejorative stuff? I don't suppose he is aware that many of us know each other in real life, and perhaps have even driven together in our never ending pursuit to be a better driver.
Like many civilians on this forum, I have the highest respect in general for our police advanced drivers. They do a difficult and dangerous job. They have to learn and deploy driving techniques that are simply not applicable in a civilian advanced driving context. And the training required to prepare a police driver for this job has evolved to reflect modern thinking, particularly in areas like the psychology of driving and in the use of technology and tactics. Over nearly 30 years, I've met and sat next to many police drivers and have learnt an enormous amount from them.
Equally, I have had the good fortune to be coached and driven by some outstanding civilian drivers, who are just as capable as the very best Class 1 drivers (including instructors) I've sat next to (in the context of a civilian drive). John Lyon was one of those - in fact, he was the very first and I know a large number of people who owe the foundations of their learning to him.
I've always thought it was a fairly fruitless exercise to try to "rank" drivers by the courses or training they'd done. There's no doubt of course that an advanced police course is a deeply intensive way to reach a very high standard of roadcraft. But a civilian could, if he / she so wished. develop to an equivalent standard (excluding, of course, the operational aspect of police driving, like learning how to contain an errant driver) by applying him / herself over weeks, months and years.
I prefer to judge myself and be judged by others solely on my last drive, not by the list of courses I've done, or the hours of training (formal and informal) I've taken. And I prefer to support and encourage all form of driving development, rather than seek to belittle or judge. I suspect these sentiments will be echoed by many on this thread.
Merry Xmas all.
Like many civilians on this forum, I have the highest respect in general for our police advanced drivers. They do a difficult and dangerous job. They have to learn and deploy driving techniques that are simply not applicable in a civilian advanced driving context. And the training required to prepare a police driver for this job has evolved to reflect modern thinking, particularly in areas like the psychology of driving and in the use of technology and tactics. Over nearly 30 years, I've met and sat next to many police drivers and have learnt an enormous amount from them.
Equally, I have had the good fortune to be coached and driven by some outstanding civilian drivers, who are just as capable as the very best Class 1 drivers (including instructors) I've sat next to (in the context of a civilian drive). John Lyon was one of those - in fact, he was the very first and I know a large number of people who owe the foundations of their learning to him.
I've always thought it was a fairly fruitless exercise to try to "rank" drivers by the courses or training they'd done. There's no doubt of course that an advanced police course is a deeply intensive way to reach a very high standard of roadcraft. But a civilian could, if he / she so wished. develop to an equivalent standard (excluding, of course, the operational aspect of police driving, like learning how to contain an errant driver) by applying him / herself over weeks, months and years.
I prefer to judge myself and be judged by others solely on my last drive, not by the list of courses I've done, or the hours of training (formal and informal) I've taken. And I prefer to support and encourage all form of driving development, rather than seek to belittle or judge. I suspect these sentiments will be echoed by many on this thread.
Merry Xmas all.
Indeed, and particularly so when an individual is so absolutely certain of their position while others have extensive contradictory experience which when mentioned is then treated with derision. As James said earlier, humility is a key characteristic in those with really high levels of capability or the capacity to develop them, something which unfortunately appears to be in short supply in this instance.
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