Advanced / Police Driver Training
Discussion
Len, I’d argue that JL’s controversial because of his instructional style. I too spent significant time in the car with JL: he was clearly an outstanding driver and I imagine his book’s excellent too. JL’s in-car instruction, however, ranged from him shouting to falling asleep!
I’ve no axe to grind, having passed HPC and been active in the club for a while. The current HPC gatekeepers and instructors are, in my opinion, a million times better than JL.
I’ve no axe to grind, having passed HPC and been active in the club for a while. The current HPC gatekeepers and instructors are, in my opinion, a million times better than JL.
This is fun! Like fishing and catching the same fish again and again.
M Barrett – Thanks for the advice. Have you done the Roadcraft on-line course - give it a go I'm sure you will pass!
Dennis Waterman (aka Sgt Carter) didn’t drive the Consul GT “Sweeney” car. There was an episode where a gang was holding the family of a Class I driver at gunpoint to make the police driver be their getaway driver, which possibly wasn’t based on fact.
Now Graham Cole, or PC Stamp in The Bill, apparently did an advanced course at Hendon (?). I suspect his character was based on research about the police. There were a number of episodes involving the actions and behaviour of police advanced drivers – their competitiveness, rivalries and the distinctions between classes I and II. One episode was filmed at Hendon ("Final Drive" c.1997) and used a Hendon Senator and other cars. Apparently The Bill was quite accurate in many ways - they had to give their uniforms to the Met when the program closed because they were so accurate.
Then there’s the more recent ‘reality’ shows where the police are filmed whilst doing their job. I’m sure many police instructors cringe at what they see their former students doing in those shows.
The comment I made about two former Class I drivers demonstrates that not all police drivers are what they should be. Like anyone else with specific skills it is not having the skills but choosing to use them that is important.
M Barrett – Thanks for the advice. Have you done the Roadcraft on-line course - give it a go I'm sure you will pass!
Dennis Waterman (aka Sgt Carter) didn’t drive the Consul GT “Sweeney” car. There was an episode where a gang was holding the family of a Class I driver at gunpoint to make the police driver be their getaway driver, which possibly wasn’t based on fact.
Now Graham Cole, or PC Stamp in The Bill, apparently did an advanced course at Hendon (?). I suspect his character was based on research about the police. There were a number of episodes involving the actions and behaviour of police advanced drivers – their competitiveness, rivalries and the distinctions between classes I and II. One episode was filmed at Hendon ("Final Drive" c.1997) and used a Hendon Senator and other cars. Apparently The Bill was quite accurate in many ways - they had to give their uniforms to the Met when the program closed because they were so accurate.
Then there’s the more recent ‘reality’ shows where the police are filmed whilst doing their job. I’m sure many police instructors cringe at what they see their former students doing in those shows.
The comment I made about two former Class I drivers demonstrates that not all police drivers are what they should be. Like anyone else with specific skills it is not having the skills but choosing to use them that is important.
It's 7pm here in Sydney and I'm getting bored waiting for you all to get up and continue with this thread.
I just thought;
On 28 October Chris200 asked, “I am keen to do an advanced driver training or a course similar to the Police driver training but there is so many companies and options out there I am looking for personal recommendations.
I am look for a car provided course over 1-3 days that is based on "on the road" and not track related.
Any personal recommendations will be welcome.
Chris200 – Have we answered your question????
I just thought;
On 28 October Chris200 asked, “I am keen to do an advanced driver training or a course similar to the Police driver training but there is so many companies and options out there I am looking for personal recommendations.
I am look for a car provided course over 1-3 days that is based on "on the road" and not track related.
Any personal recommendations will be welcome.
Chris200 – Have we answered your question????
Still bored - come on UK wake up Christmas is over - know it's cold but I'm waiting to continue with this ripper thread.
Ben Collins has made a comparison of the “old-school” and “new-school” police drivers in "How to Drive". What impressed me with this book was that Ben has used reference material including, “Steering Wheel Papers”.
I considered that on the Hendon courses years ago (1973-1985ish) too much time was spent on the open road when most police work is on town roads. Many officers I came across tended to agree. Routes used hadn't changed for decades, including out to Lakenheath where, post WWII one could acquire many nice things from the USAFE. Later researchers (Lisa Dorn I believe) have also made that observation.
Open roads great for civilian driving courses such as HPC because that is where most keen drivers want to go.
Ben Collins has made a comparison of the “old-school” and “new-school” police drivers in "How to Drive". What impressed me with this book was that Ben has used reference material including, “Steering Wheel Papers”.
I considered that on the Hendon courses years ago (1973-1985ish) too much time was spent on the open road when most police work is on town roads. Many officers I came across tended to agree. Routes used hadn't changed for decades, including out to Lakenheath where, post WWII one could acquire many nice things from the USAFE. Later researchers (Lisa Dorn I believe) have also made that observation.
Open roads great for civilian driving courses such as HPC because that is where most keen drivers want to go.
"
I considered that on the Hendon courses years ago (1973-1985ish) too much time was spent on the open road when most police work is on town roads. "
Maybe 15 years ago I had a day out with a then serving instructor on the Hendon advanced course. We were driving their routes passing Lakenheath. I asked him about this point. His reply was that learning to judge limit points on rural bends at 100 mph helped judgement of limit points at urban junctions at 30 mph. Where do they train now?
I considered that on the Hendon courses years ago (1973-1985ish) too much time was spent on the open road when most police work is on town roads. "
Maybe 15 years ago I had a day out with a then serving instructor on the Hendon advanced course. We were driving their routes passing Lakenheath. I asked him about this point. His reply was that learning to judge limit points on rural bends at 100 mph helped judgement of limit points at urban junctions at 30 mph. Where do they train now?
waremark said:
"
I considered that on the Hendon courses years ago (1973-1985ish) too much time was spent on the open road when most police work is on town roads. "
Maybe 15 years ago I had a day out with a then serving instructor on the Hendon advanced course. We were driving their routes passing Lakenheath. I asked him about this point. His reply was that learning to judge limit points on rural bends at 100 mph helped judgement of limit points at urban junctions at 30 mph. Where do they train now?
I've asked the same question of civvie instructors and observers, including some police trained ones. Their point was that it's easier to teach the system when there's basically one hazard at a time like a Roadcraft diagram, then once the student is familiar with the concept they can apply it to complex urban situations with hazards on both sides. I considered that on the Hendon courses years ago (1973-1985ish) too much time was spent on the open road when most police work is on town roads. "
Maybe 15 years ago I had a day out with a then serving instructor on the Hendon advanced course. We were driving their routes passing Lakenheath. I asked him about this point. His reply was that learning to judge limit points on rural bends at 100 mph helped judgement of limit points at urban junctions at 30 mph. Where do they train now?
Waremark / Dr Jekyll
They are good reasons. And I suppose if you look at Chris Gilbert's first DVD his commentary drive with twos and blues was in town around Stanmore, Belmont and Edgware.
The last time I was at Hendon I sat in on the last day of a VIP protection course, pretending to be the Principal, in a convoy with outriders, from Hendon to Buckingham Palace, mainly down the A5 at 0800.
In the earlier days of HPC we had to negotiate the morning and evening traffic from South Kensington which gave us a good intro at lower speeds. Especially down to Brands Hatch or Box Hill or out west towards Chipping Norton, Thame etc. using the A40.
Generally co-drivers (instructors) spent a lot of energy on getting clients to slow down in the traffic, only to then have to push the client to get going on the open roads.
They are good reasons. And I suppose if you look at Chris Gilbert's first DVD his commentary drive with twos and blues was in town around Stanmore, Belmont and Edgware.
The last time I was at Hendon I sat in on the last day of a VIP protection course, pretending to be the Principal, in a convoy with outriders, from Hendon to Buckingham Palace, mainly down the A5 at 0800.
In the earlier days of HPC we had to negotiate the morning and evening traffic from South Kensington which gave us a good intro at lower speeds. Especially down to Brands Hatch or Box Hill or out west towards Chipping Norton, Thame etc. using the A40.
Generally co-drivers (instructors) spent a lot of energy on getting clients to slow down in the traffic, only to then have to push the client to get going on the open roads.
I hope this post is not going to attract the usual barrage of negatives and insults whilst continually failing to disprove my arguments on advanced driving. Firstly I have driven that route to Lakenheath hundreds of times, once as a pupil on my advanced course and the rest whilst instructing and believe me there are some extremely challenging high speed varying bends where yes you are there to master many aspects of advanced driving, the main I would say is ‘vanishing points’ and believe it or not many people take many hours to master this. I know back then we only had old cars with 150 to 180 BHP but when driving a Rover P6 3500 at 125mph with no driver aids you had to get thing right. I cannot be 100% that it was on this route but I think it was, where one of the cars leaving Hendon this particular morning never returned due to the driver getting this wrong, he failed to lose enough speed hit a bridge moving it by six inches stopping all the trains from London for a couple of days and seriously injuring himself and the other three occupants. Obviously any civilian driving courses do not have an exemption to National speed limits by the Home Office so they are limited most of the time to 60 MPH, occasionally 70 MPH!
I would admit that a Police driver is probably at his most dangerous when he first returns to division fresh from his advanced course because he is used to travelling so fast that he tends to carry too much speed into situations with sometimes a rather embarrassing outcome! Once this period has passed driving on an emercall through central London in heavy traffic is very easy compared to high speed A or B road driving, you used to cover a lot of distance actually on the pavement! The very best driver is actually the most dangerous really as he is on the limit of being as fast and as smooth as possible but one step further would be darn right dangerous. There used to be a saying in the Police that was very true “ A Class 1 always gets to a call first but a Class 2 always gets there”
I would admit that a Police driver is probably at his most dangerous when he first returns to division fresh from his advanced course because he is used to travelling so fast that he tends to carry too much speed into situations with sometimes a rather embarrassing outcome! Once this period has passed driving on an emercall through central London in heavy traffic is very easy compared to high speed A or B road driving, you used to cover a lot of distance actually on the pavement! The very best driver is actually the most dangerous really as he is on the limit of being as fast and as smooth as possible but one step further would be darn right dangerous. There used to be a saying in the Police that was very true “ A Class 1 always gets to a call first but a Class 2 always gets there”
Yes same thing really, obviously they crash in a smoother fashion too. If you are going to crash though I always used to say make it a good one! Having said that in over 20 years of active Police advanced driving, Inner London, instructing at Hendon and out to Surrey on the edge of the Met I had two Polaccs, one on division where I hit a deer at over 100 MPH and wrote off an SD1 and the other again at over 100 MPH whilst at the school on my course on the A1 again, in an SD1 where a builders bucket blew across the carriageway in my path. Although only a bucket it still rendered the car not drivable!
M B - “I hope this post is not going to attract the usual barrage of negatives and insults whilst continually failing to disprove my arguments on advanced driving.”
It probably will. Thank you for providing examples of crashes involving advanced police drivers.
Here's another: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/inquiry-urged-in...
Possibly on the way to Lakenheath?
“..where one of the cars leaving Hendon this particular morning never returned due to the driver getting this wrong, he failed to lose enough speed hit a bridge moving it by six inches stopping all the trains from London for a couple of days and seriously injuring himself and the other three occupants.”
Let's hope the driver doesn't get it wrong at 30 mph in Wembley on a Saturday afternoon when Spurs are playing at home.
“The very best driver is actually the most dangerous…..”
Then they are not the best. I’m beginning to understand why Ch. Supt Peter Amey closed down Kent Police’s driving school many years ago.
“If you are going to crash though I always used to say make it a good one!”
How many people need to be killed for it to be an ‘excellent’ crash?
It probably will. Thank you for providing examples of crashes involving advanced police drivers.
Here's another: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/inquiry-urged-in...
Possibly on the way to Lakenheath?
“..where one of the cars leaving Hendon this particular morning never returned due to the driver getting this wrong, he failed to lose enough speed hit a bridge moving it by six inches stopping all the trains from London for a couple of days and seriously injuring himself and the other three occupants.”
Let's hope the driver doesn't get it wrong at 30 mph in Wembley on a Saturday afternoon when Spurs are playing at home.
“The very best driver is actually the most dangerous…..”
Then they are not the best. I’m beginning to understand why Ch. Supt Peter Amey closed down Kent Police’s driving school many years ago.
“If you are going to crash though I always used to say make it a good one!”
How many people need to be killed for it to be an ‘excellent’ crash?
If you are going to have a crash, make it a good one was said very tongue in cheek Len but obviously as I said as you can’t disprove any of my posts you are back to picking anything to criticise. Obviously the accident you have attached was a very very serious one and absolutely awful particularly for the poor completely innocent victim and her family. In this case I think the judicial system was completely wrong as is very often the case. The driver and definitely the instructor should have had the book thrown at them, long driving bans, large fines and most certainly sacked. Shocking!
Must admit when I'm driving police advanced drivers the feedback I'm hoping for is 'you're safe, but you could make slightly better progress than you are making', rather than 'yes, you've got it sussed.'
I've had a couple of police drivers (one an instructor) who encouraged me to do things which on reflection seemed more appropriate for cars with blue lights in a massive hurry.
I've had a couple of police drivers (one an instructor) who encouraged me to do things which on reflection seemed more appropriate for cars with blue lights in a massive hurry.
Dr J, yes I agree an instructor should never push someone to uncomfortably fast speeds, at the end of the day the best drivers are fast, smooth and above all safe and lets face it we partake in advanced driver training because we are passionate about are driving and we enjoy it. We don’t want to be stressing about squeezing every last MPH out and cornering on the limit. Just another old Police saying to bore some people on this forum “No call is so urgent to justify a life”
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