Advanced / Police Driver Training

[M Barrett]

Here we go more waffling, how have I done that?

[johnao]

M Barrett said:

Here we go more waffling, how have I done that?

Genuine question: Would it be possible for you to chill a little and stop being so antagonistic? Maybe you can't. Maybe it's an intrinsic aspect of your nature and therefore a natural and unavoidable tendency. I've no idea, it's a mystery.

I think the issue is that you have a tendency often to see criticism where there isn't any.

[M Barrett]

Believe me Johnao I am well chilled just trying to add some useful bits on advanced driving, I think you need to look back through the thread and you will see that I have had plenty of what most people would understand as criticism, crap Police Class 1 drivers, a dinosaur, an Alan Titchmarsh loving bore, ignorant and so the list goes on. These comments just amuse me and provoke another sometimes controversial reply. Funny thing is I know two people on this forum and these two know me! and yes I do know that some of you are pals and probably go out driving together and understand you being a bit over protective of each other.

[M Barrett]

Old Len is obviously asleep now, how peaceful!

[Len Woodman]

Good morning. It’s a lovely day here, almost 25 deg. C already and should get to about 31 by the time I leave work and head for the beach. Hopefully there are no great whites around.

About to start work soon – I am expecting the rep from Mercedes to bring a demo over for a run and hoping for lunch with my friend from the NSW Fire Brigade training school. Sometimes work is harder!

Quote: “During the debrief in the canteen at Hendon, it dawned on me that these police were new guard. Their approach to pursuits bore no resemblance to the ‘GLF’ attitude of the 1990s that saw police drivers in a state of tunnel vision, buzzing red lights and doing everything you saw in The Sweeney to keep up with the suspect. Yes, we drove quite fast, but speed was largely irrelevant, and Silkglove never lost control of the situation or endangered anyone.” (Ben Collins, 2014)

Looking at all the data and points on this forum over the last week or so, plus numerous reports and research papers on UK police driver training, I have concluded so far that today’s UK Advanced police drivers are better than in the ‘70s, ‘80s or ‘90s.

On my way to work this morning I followed four NSW Police motorcyclists from the Motorcycle Response Team. They demonstrated an impeccable display of riding.

That led me to possibly some very contentious thoughts.

Is Hendon possibly no longer the best in the world, if it ever was? I haven’t seen any scientific or empirical evidence to prove it. Just anecdotal comments from those with close connections. Is it any better than all the other police driving schools in the UK – I think South Wales, among others, could put up a good argument!

Hendon may have ‘exported’ Roadcraft, but that’s probably gone the same way as cricket. I would say that instructors at the School of Traffic and Mobile Policing in New South Wales are equal to those in the UK, maybe better if you consider far worse driving conditions, especially outside of eastern seaboard towns, with more dirt, gravel and broken surfaces and longer distances to travel – we actually use 4WDs off-road as a daily occurrence. And up to this year much better cars – V8 Commodores and Falcon Turbos! And a great training centre - https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-34.7023728,149.75...

I’ve just lit the blue touch paper and am standing well back!

Other research tells me that there was no boathouse at Stirling Lines Hereford – maybe at Credenhill? Just a Waltfinder question.

Sleep well.

[vonhosen]

The only time you could say for sure it was the best Police driving school was when & if it was the only one. It's a purely academic consideration & not an important one at that.

Every GB & International school I've had contact with (& that's quite a few) have room for improvement and the greatest barrier to it (IMHO) is the insular & self appreciative nature of Police driver training. They need to be more appreciative of & open to outside opinion/constructive criticism, rather than being defensive to & dismissive of it. After all their existence essentially started as a result of outside expertise not internal.

[Len Woodman]

Good reply Vonhosen.

In 1997 two good friends of mine, Snr Sgt Paul Hunt (Head of School) and Snr Cst Paul Dawson from the NSW Police driving school, spent some weeks at Hendon with Sgt John Pritty and others. The main reason they were there was to study the National Protection Driving Course in order to prepare for the 2000 Olympics. When they came back we discussed what was done in the UK - at that time much more experienced in protection duties - and what needed to change here in NSW. Later I met up with John Pritty at Hendon and we discussed the differences between police driving in the two different regimes, both founded on Roadcraft. This period saw a lot of exchanged information and ideas in both directions. I know John wanted to visit Oz (nothing to do with sun, beaches etc.!) to check out what was done here but I think he went on to Royalty Protection. I think he could be described as perhaps one of the original 'new-guard' at Hendon.

High speed on-road training was one area where, in NSW, it was decided that time spent on a specially built private road, not racetrack, to practice limit points (vanishing points to the Americans) and high speed handling was essential, together with high speed manouvring on a VMA. Any 'moments' that occur can be more easily reviewed to prevent reoccurence. Also driver temperament and attitude can be identified early. From there follows experience on-road, including dirt (mud when wet) and gravel. The location of the school also allows easy travelling to the ski fields and snow covered mountain roads in winter. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcpti-nI0l0&t=... A much safer approach.

Anyway this was a really good set up based more on individual relationships than official procedure. However I'm not sure it is still happening. I recall Hendon having close connections with Japan and, prior to handover, the Royal Hong Kong Police.

I'll throw something else in. Has anyone done fire brigade or ambulance service driver training? Nice to get some comments as opposed to written information.

[StressedDave]

Len Woodman said:

It probably will. Thank you for providing examples of crashes involving advanced police drivers.

Here's another: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/inquiry-urged-in...

One of my earliest cases as an investigator that one. As I worked for the Commissioner and the RTA (back then they were accidents rather than collisions) happened out of area, we were double-checking the outcomes rather than being the criminal lead. Some interesting psychological issues on that one and a very cautionary tale regarding having cars with plastic hatchbacks. I can't believe it's over 20 years ago now.

It could have been on the way to Lakenheath - it was northbound on the A10, but mid-afternoon and there wouldn't have been much chance to do much at or beyond Lakenheath before getting back to Hendon.

[Len Woodman]

StressedDave said:

One of my earliest cases as an investigator that one. As I worked for the Commissioner and the RTA (back then they were accidents rather than collisions) happened out of area, we were double-checking the outcomes rather than being the criminal lead. Some interesting psychological issues on that one and a very cautionary tale regarding having cars with plastic hatchbacks. I can't believe it's over 20 years ago now.

It could have been on the way to Lakenheath - it was northbound on the A10, but mid-afternoon and there wouldn't have been much chance to do much at or beyond Lakenheath before getting back to Hendon.

Must have been difficult to deal with. Questioning why a well-trained driver did something so wrong. Again it is having the ability but choosing to use it that is an issue. I see that on a daily basis with my fleet drivers.

This also brought back memories from when I was in the army based at Bassingbourn barracks just north of Royston. This was another 'refs' location for Hendon instructors, but mainly the bikes. That was around 1974. They came in to the guardhouse for a cuppa and then the regimental police sergeant would show off by ordering 'the lads' around just to show his power.

Len

[Dr Jekyll]

When training in unmarked cars, are you constantly getting stopped for speeding or do the local cops recognise the cars even when you're out of your area?

[M Barrett]

Can be an issue, usually the Counties know the Met Advanced course cars and ignore them but out of respect on seeing a marked Police vehicle we would slow down to legal speed limits mainly for the reason of it looking terrible if two unmarked cars pass, often on pursuit training at maybe twice the speed limit in view of members of the public under the nose of the Police. I’ll tell you one story where a Counties car didn’t realise that it was a Met car on a night drive he was chasing for 25 miles. We thought he was aware and continued but when we lost him he radioed ahead and had the road blocked to stop us. He then turned up to speak to us and only then realised who we were. We were most apologetic and a bit embarrassed but his own force colleagues were in fits of laughter and ripped the driver and operator to pieces!

[Len Woodman]

Dr Jekyll said:

When training in unmarked cars, are you constantly getting stopped for speeding or do the local cops recognise the cars even when you're out of your area?

In NSW it’s difficult to go out of area – one police force for an area over three times the size of the UK. Years ago, the unmarked police cars from the School of Traffic and Mobile Policing had the letters STAMP on the back. Didn’t MPMDS have “Driver under Advanced Training” on the back of cars?

I understand that here in NSW training is no longer done in unmarked vehicles because of the risks involved. There are some specialist courses for surveillance teams etc. but as there is no need for unmarked vehicles to be involved in pursuits training is primarily for urgent response. Crime teams and other specialist units have unmarked vehicles but there’s rarely justification for them to get into a pursuit. And runs where a police driver has to use exemptions (in NSW exemptions cover all road rules) then blue lights and sirens must be always be used. So why not use them in training? And why use unmarked vehicles in simulated pursuits?

In recent years visibility of all police vehicles has become quite a priority:

https://www.facebook.com/nswpoliceforce/photos/a.1...

Crime units and others have radios and call in the HWP and Polair (helicopters) specialists to do the dirty work – no Sweeney style chases and crashes!
Certainly, the Australian Capital Territory Police will not authorise pursuits unless there is strong evidence that the occupants of the vehicle to be pursued have been involved in very serious crime – terrorism, murder etc. Use of ANPR and better communications have proven this to work.

I hope to be visiting the NSW Police driving school in January so I can let you know what they are up to.

[M Barrett]

Certainly in the 80’s police vehicle on driver training had no signs or markings indicating such but I can’t comment on what they have nowadays. They certainly never did or couldn’t really have blue lights as this would have affected the driver training in as much as once you switch on blue lights a path is cleared through the traffic.

[Bigends]

Ours were always unmarked. Patrol caps on the rear parcel shelf gave a clue as to the occupants of the car

[Dizeee]

Dr Jekyll said:

I've asked the same question of civvie instructors and observers, including some police trained ones. Their point was that it's easier to teach the system when there's basically one hazard at a time like a Roadcraft diagram, then once the student is familiar with the concept they can apply it to complex urban situations with hazards on both sides.

Generally speaking, the competences now taught are of a national level and therefore more aligned. It is true that the Met area is generally urban and built up with very little in the way of country roads, having said that some of the outer boroughs have some fantastic driving roads, Hillingdon, Barking and Greenwich spring to mind.

I think it is true to say that if the system is taught and can be applied at high speed, it can then be fairly easily adapted and applied at a lower speed. Much harder to teach it a lower speed only and then try and scale it up to a larger speed. Plus as has been said, getting used to reading and executing limit points at speed should make their application easier at the lower speeds of an urban area.

Even on blue lights, driving in the city or in many built up area's sill be done at low speed, and the focus becomes the prioritisation of hazards rather than physical aspects of the road. Going through the City of London for example in blue lights would probably only achieve an average speed of around 25mph, so limit points become irrelevant.

[Dizeee]

vonhosen said:

The only time you could say for sure it was the best Police driving school was when & if it was the only one. It's a purely academic consideration & not an important one at that.

Every GB & International school I've had contact with (& that's quite a few) have room for improvement and the greatest barrier to it (IMHO) is the insular & self appreciative nature of Police driver training. They need to be more appreciative of & open to outside opinion/constructive criticism, rather than being defensive to & dismissive of it. After all their existence essentially started as a result of outside expertise not internal.

An irony really, as surely this is just a failure of human aspects but on a larger scale. A fundamentally important part of the system of car control, yet overlooked in the broader context of training application on behalf of a centre / organisation.

[Dizeee]

Dr Jekyll said:

When training in unmarked cars, are you constantly getting stopped for speeding or do the local cops recognise the cars even when you're out of your area?

You never get stopped, out of area you are still recognisable, your all in uniform so even if it got close it should be twigged. And if it was imminent, a quick flick of the covert blues from the back would confirm your identity.

[Len Woodman]

Dizeee said:

An irony really, as surely this is just a failure of human aspects but on a larger scale. A fundamentally important part of the system of car control, yet overlooked in the broader context of training application on behalf of a centre / organisation.

Yes, and during the past twenty years or so there have been many academics and psychologists getting involved in road safety. Unfortunately many have been negatively critical of driver training stating that it does not include the cognitive skills required for driving. For a long time, I believed that the lengthy training process at British police driving schools developed driver attitude and that those with an aggressive approach were weeded out. The late Paul Smith made some interesting comments: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/roadsafety.html.

The Scots were aware long ago and produced Human Aspects of Police Driving - recommended reading for all new police and ambulance drivers, however it has been out of print for years!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHyOMYBr83o

[StressedDave]

Len Woodman said:

Must have been difficult to deal with. Questioning why a well-trained driver did something so wrong. Again it is having the ability but choosing to use it that is an issue. I see that on a daily basis with my fleet drivers.

I didn't do the live scene as it was Cambs rather than Met, but coming to it a week late, the skid marks (Car didn't have ABS and the driver's mind was concentrated on the thing he was going to hit at 50mph rather than looking for escape routes or cadence braking) were still present and somewhat long as were reasonably large chunks of Citroen AX hatch. ISTR the pressure marks for the 2nd car, which did have ABS and only avoided the fate of the first car by using the other half of the carriageway, were still visible too.

As I alluded to, the psychological issues were of more interest than the scene, that being res ipsa locitur. It was very surprising how many of the other occupants of the cars weren't paying attention to the driving and instruction that was going on and had no knowledge whatsoever as to what had occurred. At least until the CC of Cambridgeshire stuck them all on for s.1... Allegedly the perpetrator had a reputation for 'overdriving' when his student was more talented, which begged the question why this hadn't been picked up by those more senior prior to the incident.

Quite why the charge was lessened from s1. is another discussion.

[Len Woodman]

StressedDave said:

I didn't do the live scene as it was Cambs rather than Met, but coming to it a week late, the skid marks (Car didn't have ABS and the driver's mind was concentrated on the thing he was going to hit at 50mph rather than looking for escape routes or cadence braking) were still present and somewhat long as were reasonably large chunks of Citroen AX hatch. ISTR the pressure marks for the 2nd car, which did have ABS and only avoided the fate of the first car by using the other half of the carriageway, were still visible too.

As I alluded to, the psychological issues were of more interest than the scene, that being res ipsa locitur. It was very surprising how many of the other occupants of the cars weren't paying attention to the driving and instruction that was going on and had no knowledge whatsoever as to what had occurred. At least until the CC of Cambridgeshire stuck them all on for s.1... Allegedly the perpetrator had a reputation for 'overdriving' when his student was more talented, which begged the question why this hadn't been picked up by those more senior prior to the incident.

Quite why the charge was lessened from s1. is another discussion.

That's very interesting and disappointing as well. I believe there was a report out around that time - the North Report? I have a hard copy somewhere in my collection. I understand that that proposed many changes to training. However, Lisa Dorn at the Blue Light Users' Conference in 2006 was still critical that trainers were not skilled or focused on human aspects.

Interesting that the passengers in the vehicle were not paying attention. I recently stopped "three in a vehicle" because the guys in the back were getting distracted. I now do just one-on-one.