Advanced / Police Driver Training
Discussion
I did say no comment but as you insist posting such rubbish I will continue. Faster cars, I don’t think so, particularly in comparison to what cars are being driven by the public on the road nowadays, examples, RS Focus, Golf R, Mercedes A45 all relatively cheap cars that no police car used at the moment in the UK would catch if a reasonable driver wanted to get away. Secondly No professionalism at all nowadays with not only the appalling standard of police driving (in the majority but not all) cases, the filthy often damaged state of police vehicles in circulation and finally and most distressing which I didn’t want to mention and please before you comment research and you will see I’m correct is the massive increase in serious or fatal RTA’s involving Police vehicles, FACT. Think about it.
M Barrett said:
Well he certainly experience driving at its best though, probably the old Wolseys and Jags, don't think he would have liked the modern fleet of Area cars, Skoda Octavia's, Mondeos and diesel BMW's if you're lucky! No power steering then to help you thread your way through heavy city traffic on an emercall! or brakes for that matter!
Yeah, 6/90's, 6/99's and the S-Type's. Not sure about the 6/110, as being in an outer Div, I think 'X' went from the 6/99's to the S-Type and might not have had any 6/110's. I know neighboring 'K' used 6/110's right up until late '69 early '70, but I even as a youngster, I don't ever remember seeing a 6/110 on 'X'. Remember the S-Types though, went to one of the Met Officers childrens xmas parties in the back of a black Jag 
But, Dad had left area car duty by the late 60's as he transferred to the Dog Section, although, they only got the first black Mini vans as dog Vans in the mid 60's IIRC, and often handlers had to grab rides in anything or walk on duty, so Dad being ex-Area car, would be often back on Area car duty and having to resort to chucking the poor dog in the back of the area car to slide around on the back seat!! I can remember our first dog breaking in half one of her front canine's one night duty, when she slide across the back seat of the Jag and head butted the window window/door handle during a chase of a stolen Ford Zodiac.
Elf n safety wasn't heard of in those days!!
Wish now I'd tape recorded Dad's stories of policing in those days
SVS said:
+another strong recommendation for the High Performance Course. Utterly brilliant. 
The standard of instruction for the High Performance Course is outstanding. (HPC is taught far better than the IAM and RoSPA, in my experience, and I’ve been an IAM Observer.)
Any idea how much the HPC course is?The standard of instruction for the High Performance Course is outstanding. (HPC is taught far better than the IAM and RoSPA, in my experience, and I’ve been an IAM Observer.)
M Barrett said:
I did say no comment but as you insist posting such rubbish I will continue. Faster cars, I don’t think so, particularly in comparison to what cars are being driven by the public on the road nowadays, examples, RS Focus, Golf R, Mercedes A45 all relatively cheap cars that no police car used at the moment in the UK would catch if a reasonable driver wanted to get away. Secondly No professionalism at all nowadays with not only the appalling standard of police driving (in the majority but not all) cases, the filthy often damaged state of police vehicles in circulation and finally and most distressing which I didn’t want to mention and please before you comment research and you will see I’m correct is the massive increase in serious or fatal RTA’s involving Police vehicles, FACT. Think about it.
What are you talking about??Where do you want to put the goal posts now?
I'm talking about shorter courses now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about more competencies on those courses now than the 80's.(Less time in which they have to absorb/learn more skills).
i'm talking about they have to contend with more traffic on the roads now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about they drive faster cars on the courses now than we did in the 80's.
In short it's harder & more challenging for today's students than when we did it back in the 80s.
Professionalism in the Police in the 80's??
Please!!
You'll be telling me next that bullying/hitting adults to 'assist' in their learning is a good thing
Yes the cars maybe be dirtier etc, they can't afford for them to be off the road washing them all the time. They are busier chasing their tails with more than we were in the 80's.
As regards fatalities it's still as it's always been, that the vast majority of fatalities are from pursuits with invariably those in the fleeing vehicle crashing & killing themselves/other occupants or colliding with an an innocent 3rd party killing them, not generally the Police vehicle striking & killing people.
Today of course in a back drop of more Police vehicles, more Police drivers & more Police miles covered than in the 80's.
vonhosen said:
What are you talking about??
Where do you want to put the goal posts now?
I'm talking about shorter courses now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about more competencies on those courses now than the 80's.(Less time in which they have to absorb/learn more skills).
i'm talking about they have to contend with more traffic on the roads now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about they drive faster cars on the courses now than in the 80's.
In short it's harder & more challenging for today's students than when we did it back in the 80s.
Professionalism in the Police in the 80's??
Please!!
You'll be telling me next that bullying/hitting adults to 'assist' in their learning is a good thing
Yes the cars maybe be dirtier etc, they can't afford for them to be off the road washing them all the time. They are busier chasing their tails with more than we were in the 80's.
As regards fatalities it's still as it's always been, that the vast majority of fatalities are from pursuits with invariably those in the fleeing vehicle crashing & killing themselves/other occupants or colliding with an an innocent 3rd party killing them, not generally the Police vehicle striking & killing people.
Today of course in a back drop of more Police vehicles, more Police drivers & more Police miles covered than in the 80's.
So...are you saying that standards are lower now than they were, as drivers have less time to learn more - or are the current crop super learners and able to deal with the extra learning. Whats the training situation in relation to simple 'Panda driving' - that used to be a two week course(if you already held a licence on entry) or three weeks if they had to get you through your test as well - though this limited the grade you could achieveWhere do you want to put the goal posts now?
I'm talking about shorter courses now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about more competencies on those courses now than the 80's.(Less time in which they have to absorb/learn more skills).
i'm talking about they have to contend with more traffic on the roads now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about they drive faster cars on the courses now than in the 80's.
In short it's harder & more challenging for today's students than when we did it back in the 80s.
Professionalism in the Police in the 80's??
Please!!
You'll be telling me next that bullying/hitting adults to 'assist' in their learning is a good thing
Yes the cars maybe be dirtier etc, they can't afford for them to be off the road washing them all the time. They are busier chasing their tails with more than we were in the 80's.
As regards fatalities it's still as it's always been, that the vast majority of fatalities are from pursuits with invariably those in the fleeing vehicle crashing & killing themselves/other occupants or colliding with an an innocent 3rd party killing them, not generally the Police vehicle striking & killing people.
Today of course in a back drop of more Police vehicles, more Police drivers & more Police miles covered than in the 80's.
Clearly you haven’t done any research as I told you to do before posting regarding Serious or fatal Polacs whether vicinity only or direct. You have just started rambling on and attempting to change the subject, Police bullying or whatever in the 80’s, really, what is this to do with Police advanced driving? Your comments show as I said that you have little or no knowledge of advanced driving at all. You are probably a serving Police Officer, one of the new so called, ‘blue light’ or whatever stupid handle they have given it now drivers who wishes that the proper old driving course with Class 1’s etc was still around. If I was in the job now having to put up with the s
t that serving Officers do, I would probably feel the same but my advise is to crack on doing as best you can given the training and tools you have available and please don’t worry about the past. You are doing a good job, well done!
t that serving Officers do, I would probably feel the same but my advise is to crack on doing as best you can given the training and tools you have available and please don’t worry about the past. You are doing a good job, well done!AJB88 said:
Any idea how much the HPC course is?
That's going to depend partly on where you're at now. If you've not previously done any post-test training then it's likely to take a bit longer and cost a little more.One of the Course Managers is just up the road from you though (details on that website), so best to drop them a line and get a proper answer.
Bigends said:
vonhosen said:
What are you talking about??
Where do you want to put the goal posts now?
I'm talking about shorter courses now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about more competencies on those courses now than the 80's.(Less time in which they have to absorb/learn more skills).
i'm talking about they have to contend with more traffic on the roads now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about they drive faster cars on the courses now than in the 80's.
In short it's harder & more challenging for today's students than when we did it back in the 80s.
Professionalism in the Police in the 80's??
Please!!
You'll be telling me next that bullying/hitting adults to 'assist' in their learning is a good thing
Yes the cars maybe be dirtier etc, they can't afford for them to be off the road washing them all the time. They are busier chasing their tails with more than we were in the 80's.
As regards fatalities it's still as it's always been, that the vast majority of fatalities are from pursuits with invariably those in the fleeing vehicle crashing & killing themselves/other occupants or colliding with an an innocent 3rd party killing them, not generally the Police vehicle striking & killing people.
Today of course in a back drop of more Police vehicles, more Police drivers & more Police miles covered than in the 80's.
So...are you saying that standards are lower now than they were, as drivers have less time to learn more - or are the current crop super learners and able to deal with the extra learning. Whats the training situation in relation to simple 'Panda driving' - that used to be a two week course(if you already held a licence on entry) or three weeks if they had to get you through your test as well - though this limited the grade you could achieveWhere do you want to put the goal posts now?
I'm talking about shorter courses now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about more competencies on those courses now than the 80's.(Less time in which they have to absorb/learn more skills).
i'm talking about they have to contend with more traffic on the roads now than in the 80's.
I'm talking about they drive faster cars on the courses now than in the 80's.
In short it's harder & more challenging for today's students than when we did it back in the 80s.
Professionalism in the Police in the 80's??
Please!!
You'll be telling me next that bullying/hitting adults to 'assist' in their learning is a good thing
Yes the cars maybe be dirtier etc, they can't afford for them to be off the road washing them all the time. They are busier chasing their tails with more than we were in the 80's.
As regards fatalities it's still as it's always been, that the vast majority of fatalities are from pursuits with invariably those in the fleeing vehicle crashing & killing themselves/other occupants or colliding with an an innocent 3rd party killing them, not generally the Police vehicle striking & killing people.
Today of course in a back drop of more Police vehicles, more Police drivers & more Police miles covered than in the 80's.
As I said earlier
They'll naturally have had less time to be well practiced at the basic system, but they'll have benefited from the competencies that we didn't do back in the day.
For example I had no blue light training before going out & driving on blue lights when I did it back in the day (& of course approaching things on blue lights requires a different approach to where you are in a completely covert car with no lights/sirens as you'll get a different response from people). Also standard drivers back in the day received no pursuit training but they have to now. The policies & regs around pursuits have changed & all response drivers need to have pursuit training. In short their training now is more fit for purpose in todays environment than the training in the 80s (if the training today was being done as it was in the 80s)
I can't speak for all constabularies in regard to what courses they offer.
My ex force haven't offered DSA licence acquisition courses for cars for decades, but do LGV PCV licence acquisition courses.
There is no training required to drive vehicles that won't require use of exemptions.
ie You can drive a response car as 'basic' driver without Police training provided you satisfy the criteria to do so (Eyesight test passed, theory test (inc Police regs etc) passed, pass assessment drive by qualified assessor. As a basic driver you can use the vehicle to get about to calls without responding to any emergency calls/using exemptions etc. That is driving around on your DSA licence obeying all the rules of the road.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 5th December 23:11
M Barrett said:
Clearly you haven’t done any research as I told you to do before posting regarding Serious or fatal Polacs whether vicinity only or direct. You have just started rambling on and attempting to change the subject, Police bullying or whatever in the 80’s, really, what is this to do with Police advanced driving? Your comments show as I said that you have little or no knowledge of advanced driving at all. You are probably a serving Police Officer, one of the new so called, ‘blue light’ or whatever stupid handle they have given it now drivers who wishes that the proper old driving course with Class 1’s etc was still around. If I was in the job now having to put up with the st that serving Officers do, I would probably feel the same but my advise is to crack on doing as best you can given the training and tools you have available and please don’t worry about the past. You are doing a good job, well done!
I'm retired, Class 1 car/bike the whole shebang. I don't need to look it up (wasn't that long ago I last looked at the IPCC fatality Polcol figures & it's as I said)t that serving Officers do, I would probably feel the same but my advise is to crack on doing as best you can given the training and tools you have available and please don’t worry about the past. You are doing a good job, well done!I'm not current crop, I'm just admitting it wasn't all roses & light back in the day when I did it. I'm not looking at it through the rose glasses, I'm using honest critical reflection. It's harder for them today than when we did it (The driving courses & the job). They have to do more in (& with) less time.
AJB88 said:
Any idea how much the HPC course is?
Looked into it a while ago. I may be mistaken but I think it was about a grand. 
Did a day with HPC drivers, interesting but didn't get much out of it tbh.
Day out with Reg Local was quite good. All depends what your aim is. CAT driver training may be more your thing. Also expensive!
Edited by Rick101 on Wednesday 6th December 03:36
Again VH is going completely off the subject, I never said that all was wonderful ‘rose tinted glasses’ then, in fact quite the opposite. The Advance course was six weeks of driving hundreds of miles at high speed, Hendon to Lakenheath airbase for lunch and back was one I remember. The job being harder now, really Tottenham, The miners dispute, the print dispute and the Brixton riots just a few examples where doing shifts of 18 hours were not unheard of and I can assure you I did so on many occasions particularly one terrible night at Tottenham!
Oh and by the way with nothing more than a piece of wood in your pocket and at most a plastic dust bin lid! I could go on but it’s futile. Wow you have two Class 1’s, the only time you can really brag is if you are a triple 1 but as you obviously got your qualifications far more recently I doubt you know what that is.
Lastly I never said life in the Police is easy now, in fact yes it is harder. The training is far less due to financial restraints and their ability to do the job properly is prevented by the current political correctness and rules and regulations dreamped up by Politicians and do do gooders who have and never will have any idea of Crime Prevention or detection.
Anyway You have drawn me into your post going completely off the subject so sorry everyone I will sign out and shut up!
Oh and by the way with nothing more than a piece of wood in your pocket and at most a plastic dust bin lid! I could go on but it’s futile. Wow you have two Class 1’s, the only time you can really brag is if you are a triple 1 but as you obviously got your qualifications far more recently I doubt you know what that is.
Lastly I never said life in the Police is easy now, in fact yes it is harder. The training is far less due to financial restraints and their ability to do the job properly is prevented by the current political correctness and rules and regulations dreamped up by Politicians and do do gooders who have and never will have any idea of Crime Prevention or detection.
Anyway You have drawn me into your post going completely off the subject so sorry everyone I will sign out and shut up!
M Barrett said:
Again VH is going completely off the subject, I never said that all was wonderful ‘rose tinted glasses’ then, in fact quite the opposite. The Advance course was six weeks of driving hundreds of miles at high speed, Hendon to Lakenheath airbase for lunch and back was one I remember.
Old school Met Instructors getting their priorities right as ever, and picking a US airbase for lunch stop for the better grub.
M Barrett said:
The miners dispute, the print dispute and the Brixton riots just a few examples where doing shifts of 18 hours were not unheard of and I can assure you I did so on many occasions particularly one terrible night at Tottenham!
Oh and by the way with nothing more than a piece of wood in your pocket and at most a plastic dust bin lid!
Indeed, I remember the battered and bruised state my old man came back in from the Grosvenor Sq riots in '68, as well as the two Southall riots of '79 and '81. Probably best I don't write my Dad views on senior officers handling of either of those 3 events.Oh and by the way with nothing more than a piece of wood in your pocket and at most a plastic dust bin lid!
M Barrett said:
Again VH is going completely off the subject, I never said that all was wonderful ‘rose tinted glasses’ then, in fact quite the opposite. The Advance course was six weeks of driving hundreds of miles at high speed, Hendon to Lakenheath airbase for lunch and back was one I remember. The job being harder now, really Tottenham, The miners dispute, the print dispute and the Brixton riots just a few examples where doing shifts of 18 hours were not unheard of and I can assure you I did so on many occasions particularly one terrible night at Tottenham!
Oh and by the way with nothing more than a piece of wood in your pocket and at most a plastic dust bin lid! I could go on but it’s futile. Wow you have two Class 1’s, the only time you can really brag is if you are a triple 1 but as you obviously got your qualifications far more recently I doubt you know what that is.
Lastly I never said life in the Police is easy now, in fact yes it is harder. The training is far less due to financial restraints and their ability to do the job properly is prevented by the current political correctness and rules and regulations dreamped up by Politicians and do do gooders who have and never will have any idea of Crime Prevention or detection.
Anyway You have drawn me into your post going completely off the subject so sorry everyone I will sign out and shut up!
You keep going off subject (with your the job is not harder now, oh hang on but it is harder now).Oh and by the way with nothing more than a piece of wood in your pocket and at most a plastic dust bin lid! I could go on but it’s futile. Wow you have two Class 1’s, the only time you can really brag is if you are a triple 1 but as you obviously got your qualifications far more recently I doubt you know what that is.
Lastly I never said life in the Police is easy now, in fact yes it is harder. The training is far less due to financial restraints and their ability to do the job properly is prevented by the current political correctness and rules and regulations dreamped up by Politicians and do do gooders who have and never will have any idea of Crime Prevention or detection.
Anyway You have drawn me into your post going completely off the subject so sorry everyone I will sign out and shut up!
You started this off with your 'it's not what it was' driving course tales.
I'm saying yes you're right it's not what it was, it's changed. They do more competencies than happened on the old courses that we did & they do it in less time, which you simply can't refute.
That the courses had to change because they were no longer fit for purposes (as the old course didn't contain all the required competencies for the wider skill set that they need to do now for 21st Century Police driivng). The response courses get as far/further than Lakenheath & back in a day.
I’m with M Barrett on this. Standards are much lower these days. How I yearn for the days of high standard, high intensity police driving courses.
I’m old school, of course, but I remember with great fondness my first driving course - it was only a standard course, but two-horsepower carriages required a certain finesse and smoothness which modern drivers just wouldn’t appreciate. I think I’ve still got my copy of Horsecraft - I’ve certainly still got my end-of-course photo:
I think I was lucky to go through the entire spectrum of police driver training, from standard through to advanced & I’ve seen it all, so my opinion is definitely valid. Here’s an action shot from the “initial follow” phase of my intermediate cycling course (I joined just after the last penny farthing was retired from service, much to my disappointment). Note the lack of socks. Those were the days - when men were men and lady policemen made the tea:
Then, in around 1907, Our Chief Constable, Major Misunderstanding (a forward-thinking chap who was best known for introducing the principle of the coal scuttle to Stoke-on-trent), saw the benefit of the new horseless carriages & recognised that beat officers could be tasked much more effectively in a motor car, especially as the incidents of harassment via Ye Face Booke were reaching epidemic proportions.
I was lucky enough to get a place on the first ever advanced motor car chauffeur and personal valet course later that year. What a course! Speeds of 20, 25, sometimes even 28mph were reached, making full use of our exemption from the red flag rule. Those cars were fast! Kids these days wouldn’t understand...
So yes, I completely agree with Mr Barrett Holmes. Modern police carriages and the standard of police driving aren’t a patch on the old days. How I long for a Daimler SP250 and some gauntlets:
I’m old school, of course, but I remember with great fondness my first driving course - it was only a standard course, but two-horsepower carriages required a certain finesse and smoothness which modern drivers just wouldn’t appreciate. I think I’ve still got my copy of Horsecraft - I’ve certainly still got my end-of-course photo:
I think I was lucky to go through the entire spectrum of police driver training, from standard through to advanced & I’ve seen it all, so my opinion is definitely valid. Here’s an action shot from the “initial follow” phase of my intermediate cycling course (I joined just after the last penny farthing was retired from service, much to my disappointment). Note the lack of socks. Those were the days - when men were men and lady policemen made the tea:
Then, in around 1907, Our Chief Constable, Major Misunderstanding (a forward-thinking chap who was best known for introducing the principle of the coal scuttle to Stoke-on-trent), saw the benefit of the new horseless carriages & recognised that beat officers could be tasked much more effectively in a motor car, especially as the incidents of harassment via Ye Face Booke were reaching epidemic proportions.
I was lucky enough to get a place on the first ever advanced motor car chauffeur and personal valet course later that year. What a course! Speeds of 20, 25, sometimes even 28mph were reached, making full use of our exemption from the red flag rule. Those cars were fast! Kids these days wouldn’t understand...
So yes, I completely agree with Mr Barrett Holmes. Modern police carriages and the standard of police driving aren’t a patch on the old days. How I long for a Daimler SP250 and some gauntlets:
M Barrett said:
Just a quick one, I don’t wish to upset people but the Met Police Advanced course is now a very diluted affair. I did my Police Advanced Course in 1980 Driving a Rover P6 over a period of six weeks based at Hendon. The first four being being trained to a high level then back on division divisional driving the wireless car or as they now call it the area car I believe, then back to Hendon for phase 2. At the end you would undergo a rigorous final drive at the end of which you would be awarded a Class 1 or Class 2, class 1 if you achieved over 86% in your final drive. In those days a class 1 or fail. All central squads ie Flying squads and the like would insist on Class 1’s, a very sore point for Class 2’s who used to get quite bitter about this. Ask an old school Police driver what class of driver they are and if they are a 1 they will say class 1. If they are a 2 they will say Advance!! Unfortunately now days through no fault of the officers themselves there is little or no point of having such a car. A chase in pursuit of a motorcycle who has no or removes his helmet has to be aborted or any chase that a civilian at information room decides is getting a bit lairy gets called off! Very sorry state of affairs all round but I suppose that’s the world we live in. You only have to watch recent news to see that the new guidelines regarding Police and stolen cars is not working too well!
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I have only read this first post out of a load more that follow, and already I see your wrong about a lot. So I will take the rest of it with a huge pinch of salt. Removal of helmet does not mean automatic termination of a pursuit, it's no longer just civilians working on spontaneous pursuits in the information room and the policy is far more complex than "lairy", plus, if you ask me what level of driver I achieved, my answer would be none of what you stated - so depsite probably good intentions you are so far off the mark with current policy and practice, that I won't get too twitched with your remarks. ://content-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/23594130_919204398246516_7445899868649816064_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTY1MDM0NTgwNzA4MDQxOTI4MA%3D%3D.2&se=7
Reading on...
vonhosen said:
I say this as someone who has been involved in Police driving through the 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's.
People always seem to think it was of a premium when they did their course & it's not what it once was since they did it. There's a sense of rose tinted glasses about it all.
It is of interest to me how those that did it back in the day form opinions on modern day methods whilst having no experience of it whatsoever, whereas those who are trained using modern day methods often have direct experience, or certainly bonafide shared experience, of historical practices.People always seem to think it was of a premium when they did their course & it's not what it once was since they did it. There's a sense of rose tinted glasses about it all.
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