Advanced / Police Driver Training

[Dizeee]

M Barrett said:

The Advance involved four weeks of advanced training travelling from Hendon well into the heart of Suffolk etc at speeds well beyond the legal limit, even in those days touching 125 MPH.

You'd go faster than that on a standard response course now. The acceleration and speeds of today's machines demand a lot more concentration and dexterity on behalf of the driver.

[Dizeee]

M Barrett said:

I did say no comment but as you insist posting such rubbish I will continue. Faster cars, I don’t think so, particularly in comparison to what cars are being driven by the public on the road nowadays, examples, RS Focus, Golf R, Mercedes A45 all relatively cheap cars that no police car used at the moment in the UK would catch if a reasonable driver wanted to get away. Secondly No professionalism at all nowadays with not only the appalling standard of police driving (in the majority but not all) cases, the filthy often damaged state of police vehicles in circulation and finally and most distressing which I didn’t want to mention and please before you comment research and you will see I’m correct is the massive increase in serious or fatal RTA’s involving Police vehicles, FACT. Think about it.

Your posts all scream of " I am a retired police officer and I got stopped last week and given a ticket for an amber light... rant rant rant". I am genuinely enjoying sitting here and reading your posts, they have ignited the comedy aspect of this thread. You post as if your bitter and angry. And your doing a great job of making yourself look rather silly in the process.

More collisions involving police vehicles is inevitable, there are around 50 times the amount of them now compared to the 70's - you may find that the proportion of collisions involving all police vehicles as a percentage has actually decreased.

As for perfomance, technology and progress has meant that the performance available to the public now is at a level never before seen. Most police cars won't get near most public car's - thats just down to budgets and necessity. There are still traffic and specialist cars that stand a good chance though, which is better than nothing.

Loving your posts, still reading on and only half way through

[Dizeee]

waremark said:

I have always believed VH was an Advanced Instructor at Hendon until quite recently - but he has always kept his identity private.

He is.

He also has a history of spending time posting very educational and learned posts on advanced driving matters, on various forums. Hewon't remember me, but I worked out who he was when I was at Hendon in 2009. I also somehow managed to work out he drove a blue Clio at the time - can't quite remember how though. He was also present in one of the sister cars we used during my Advanced course. I quite lke the fact that as a young non driving officer in the early 00's, I ended up going on to meet VH many years later.

[Dr Jekyll]

Dizeee said:

He is.

He also has a history of spending time posting very educational and learned posts on advanced driving matters, on various forums.

That's interesting.

I always found his comments about driving itself absolutely superb. But I gave up engaging with him after a couple of occasions when he took comments of mine so out of context as to totally reverse my meaning. There was also a remark he made about my income which implied he thought he knew who I was, while proving conclusively that he didn't.

[vonhosen]

Dr Jekyll said:

That's interesting.

I always found his comments about driving itself absolutely superb. But I gave up engaging with him after a couple of occasions when he took comments of mine so out of context as to totally reverse my meaning. There was also a remark he made about my income which implied he thought he knew who I was, while proving conclusively that he didn't.

I'm no literary scholar or wordsmith. I am quite sure I will have misunderstood the meaning or context on other people's posts just as others will have with mine on occasion. I have no idea who you are & no offence was meant in any discussion on these boards. If I caused any then I apologise.

[Dizeee]

Did I mention he is humble, modest and a gentleman too....?

That's my Von... through and through...

[Bigends]

Nice example of the modern response driver- sloppy or what?? Clearly no longer have time to keep two hands on the wheel - or watcw where theyre going

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTo8VAoieEM

Edited by Bigends on Thursday 7th December 14:12

[vonhosen]

Bigends said:

Nice example of the modern response driver- sloppy or what?? Clearly no longer have time to keep two hands on the wheel - or watcw where theyre going

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTo8VAoieEM

You didn't see (or don't think) that ever happen in prior decades?

[Dizeee]

Ha -that really is shocking. Aside from the driving the copper is just unproffessional, unbothered and a sack of sh--.

Plus he actually has two polcol's in that ( they are police collisions not police accidents as there is always someone at fault ). The initial car reversing into a post thanks to him hurriedly waving him out the way also counts as a polcol. And as for the roundabout, well, what can anybody say. His attitude means he deserved that, unfortunatley the poor young lasy didn't.

But you intimate that this covers "modern day response driving" - as if this is the norm? If you believe that, then you are are just as ignorant as the officer involved!

[Bigends]

Of course this clearly isnt the norm - I never said it was. ..and no, in my 30 odd years of Police driving (25yrs response -last drove on blues 2 months before retiring in '05) I was never in a car with anyone driving as poorly as matey boy on this video though of course there would have been equally poor drivers in 'my day' I'd have been mortified if i'd hit another car in the manner that he did - and quite what he was doing moving the cars afterwards??

Edited by Bigends on Thursday 7th December 15:23

[M Barrett]

Nice one Bigends, so true and you only have to accidentally switch on one of these rubbish Police camera action programmes to see how poor Police driving usually, not always is. Someone said that I was bitter and have probably been done for a trivial traffic offence! Quite the opposite, since leaving the job I have never been prosecuted for any traffic offences, of course driving a 911GT3 I never commit any!! I am certainly not bitter and still have the upmost respect for the Police in every way whether driving or fighting crime. I have stated a few facts that are true, I still have friends in the job of various different ranks all of whom are sadly counting the days to retirement for the reasons I have mentioned, lack of training due to financial constraints, being surrounded by several, not all officers who have been employed since minimum height and various other criteria were removed for recruitment, enough said!
They also laugh and joke regularly about the standard of driving and I think I heard that the category Class 1 was stopped as it made them too elitist and made the lesser drivers feel insecure and that they were failures, 125MPH someone says on a basic response course nowadays, yeah dream on!

[waremark]

Bigends said:

Nice example of the modern response driver- sloppy or what?? Clearly no longer have time to keep two hands on the wheel - or watcw where theyre going

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTo8VAoieEM

Edited by Bigends on Thursday 7th December 14:12

Maybe there was something to be said for the metal ruler system! Hope he was prosecuted. Both driving and attitude stinks.

[vonhosen]

waremark said:

Maybe there was something to be said for the metal ruler system! Hope he was prosecuted. Both driving and attitude stinks.

That didn't/doesn't stop it, plenty who were trained that way do/did the same.
You can't force people to do something once they've left you, they've got to want to do it for themselves & for that they have do adopt it within their own personal value system.
That's why the (historically overlooked) way they are trained is every bit as important as what they are trained in.
You've got maximise the time to address their values if you want them to exhibit the desirable values.
The ruler might work with some but the delivery system needs to be flexible enough to deal with individuals styles of learning. One doesn't fit all.

[M Barrett]

Blimey VH, I would guess that you are now a politician coming out with such drivel!!

[Bigends]

Being double crewed (on Area cars) with drivers of a similar or higher grade certainly meant I for one kept an eye on my driving standards as criticism was quick to come from the observers seat. Driving with one hand on the gear lever would result in a whack across the knuckles or knee with the radio handset.
My old force driving school (county) had its own classrooms and lecture hall with cutaway engines, gearboxes etc for mechanical instruction. Whilst away on a course we were totally immersed in driving from arriving in the morning till home time. First session of the day was all courses from learners to advanced into one room for ten minutes where instructors would fire questions from the highway code or roadcraft at individuals. Youd get stopped at any time by the driving school inspector who would also want a correct answer for any questions he cared to fire at you. There were no interruptions from area other than the odd court warning. Uneccessary bullshi*? - maybe - maybe not. Then out to the cars - first driver nominated - car checked over from top to bottom - all pile in - cockpit drill - then off for the day. Regular check tests by other instructors throughout the course. Instruction was relaxed but firm. We also had our own skid pan
Back to HQ - wash and garage the cars and home.
I was fortunate enough to have been taught from scratch as a Cadet, followed by my standard course a few months later - I was out driving alone - on blues - as we could then - less than four months after leaving training school as well as being van qualified at 19.
Response course came 6 - 7 years later when I had sufficient experience to handle whatever was likely to arise at the end of the journey - not point arriving first if you dont have a clue what to do when you get there is there?
I never had a knock in my whole time driving at work or private - so they obviously got something right. I'm not sure what else the modern officer could want in training.

[vonhosen]

M Barret said:

Blimey VH, I would guess that you are now a politician coming out with such drivel!!

No I just had an open enough mind to consider that I didn't know it all or automatically knew best. I listened to the criticism of others, in particular those who were most important - That is the honest feedback from candidates who now had nothing to lose - both those who had been successful & the unsuccessful. Not a case of keep the evidence of praise & bin the evidence of criticism scenario. Looked at the research/evidence & consulted with (sought out) experts from a far wider field, then armed with it all I also honestly reflected on my own past training/experiences including the behaviours I both witnessed in others & committed to myself.

There's a lot of resistance to change, protectionism, it's insular & self appreciating, doing it this way because it's always been done that way, enormous egos, contempt for & lack of recognition for outside experts (they can't know, they've never done) & intransigence. All that leads to the training becoming less relevant, not more relevant. At the heart of it should be the well being, needs & development of the candidate & for that you need to ask the right questions & employ active listening to their voice, rather than liking the sound of your own so much that it becomes the only voice/opinion in the car.

Thankfully it's not all like that, but there was a lot of old guard protectionism to be eroded.
The DVSA saw the light quicker & started moving quicker. It's a long process but worth the effort.

Mahatma Gandhi said:

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

[M Barrett]

Exactly Bigends and if you turned up on parade improperly dressed, ie the wrong or un polished foot wear or unpressed trousers etc you didn’t even start the day! You only have to look at the majority of policemen or women nowadays and the state of their dress to see that any discipline of this type is well and truly a thing of the past, when was the last time you saw a cap being worn by car crew dealing with accidents or incidents, I can’t remember! And before someone chirps in with a comment like nowadays a cap is not a priority if getting out of a Ford Mondeo having just chased a bandit car at 160 MPH for 40 miles then chasing a suspect on foot at 40 MPH across busy roads and jumping ten foot fences as I’m sure happens nowadays, I am referring to when they are out of the car dealing with non urgent matters.

Edited by M Barrett on Thursday 7th December 19:57

[M Barrett]

VH definitely a Politician zzzzzzzz

[jamesallport]

For about 20 years from 1993 I was very involved in (civilian) advanced driving. I had the huge privilege of being coached by some great drivers, police and not, in some lovely cars on road and track. Sometimes we drove quickly, sometimes not.

Driving well is just as important to me now as it was then. But reading this thread is a salutary reminder of why I don't now spend much time in the "advanced driving" world. The key thing all the best drivers I sat next to had in common was mindset. Specifically, they were very humble. I'm absolutely delighted that, on the occasions I went for a gear a fraction too early, no-one hit me with a ruler. Your mileage may vary.

But please don't let me get in the way of a really good flame war about who went faster on their advanced course. As you were.

[p1esk]

M Barrett said:

Blimey VH, I would guess that you are now a politician coming out with such drivel!!

That is not drivel, it's simply recognising human nature.

What he's doing is recognising that people don't always continue to do what they were trained to do when the training ends. When they 'escape' from the detailed supervision they'll tend to do what they truly believe in, and if they're not fully sold on what they've been taught, the quality of driving produced during training will not be sustained, and they'll simply do what they feel to be adequate, which may or may not be satisfactory in relation to the work for which they were trained.