Advanced / Police Driver Training

[ian in lancs]

Len Woodman said:

...It is the human factor that makes the ‘whole’ system fallible. It’s the weak link.

Roadcraft (infallible) + Driver input (fallible) = System (Fallible but hopefully reduced risk level).

Absolutely! And I would add vehicle or road failures. I am an IAM Observer and well aware of my own limitations. I am also in the aerospace business investigating process breaches. It is too easy to be black and white and draconian in seeking to understand what happened and lay blame clumsily. It is becoming increasingly apparent the human factor causal element and consequential culpability.

Crudely things happen because...

The individual didn't know the right thing to do - training (but the examples above indicate confusion in this regard)
The individual does know the right thing to do but doesn't
The individual does know the right thing to do but doesn't as a result of coercion
The individual does know the right thing to do but the fact pattern prevents the correct action
The individual does know the right thing to do but doesn't because the toolset being used cant cope

My colleagues investigating aircraft related accidents in the air and on the ground have a whole body of knowledge around this and we're learning from them. Indeed their culpability matrix is much more developed than the simple list above. It seems the is much to transfer to the emergency services in this regard. Not least how to investigate the actions of humans in a non-threatening way to ensure the causal factors are understood and lessons are learned and trained out. Suggest police contact Air Accidents Investigation Branch process/training team https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/air-ac...

[Dr Jekyll]

ian in lancs said:

My colleagues investigating aircraft related accidents in the air and on the ground have a whole body of knowledge around this and we're learning from them. Indeed their culpability matrix is much more developed than the simple list above. It seems the is much to transfer to the emergency services in this regard. Not least how to investigate the actions of humans in a non-threatening way to ensure the causal factors are understood and lessons are learned and trained out. Suggest police contact Air Accidents Investigation Branch process/training team https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/air-ac...

I've been saying this for years. The trouble is that the police official view is now that there are no such things as accidents, any collision is an opportunity for a prosecution. So a non threatening approach to identifying causal factors isn't going to happen.

[ian in lancs]

My view now is that when an investigation has a climate of fear of consequences the truth is harder to find, lessons to learn are missed and collegiate learning hinderered. I would argue few, if anyone, goes to work intending to cause harm and that should be the starting point.

I accept there will be the shipman’s but thankfully rare. The nurses, clinicians, docs I know do their best in difficult circumstances. They need and have a climate of trust and professional empowerment to make the difficult decisions. I guess emergency response folk need the same. Without that it won’t be a career choice and we all suffer.

[Woody2043]

'Any collision is an opportunity for a prosecution'.

What a complete load of tosh. A most uninformed viewpoint. The police don't prosecute, the CPS do, and the standard of evidence needs to be high, plus of course several 'tests' applied by the CPS. In the majority of accidents without injury, no-one is prosecuted.

[M Barrett]

Well what should happen is that the Police put the facts and hopefully the evidence to the CPS and they decide whether there is sufficient evidence to put before the Court. Unfortunately nowadays what is increasingly happening is that the CPS decide themselves whether to NFA the case even in cases very where a reasonable amount of evidence exists without letting the Court decide, very much a cost excercise. Similarly I have seen an increasing number of RTA cases being put before the Magistrates Court with no evidence. I have witnessed the CPS in Court tell the Clerk that they are ready to proceed and then less than a minute later when the Defendant pleads NG withdraw the case with no questions being asked by the Court as to why minutes earlier they were ready to go, again revenue hunting! If he pleads they give out the fine, if not chuck it out, very naughty.

[daz6215]

Here are some links with regard to some of the things discussed,

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Main_Page#huma...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpDvneZBnwA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pXu0qxtWPg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLh7rZ3rhU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKqYMpWZbV8&t=...

Enjoy

[vonhosen]

Russell Ackoff is fantastic.

[daz6215]

He is Von, very humorous too!

[tumble dryer]

vonhosen said:

Russell Ackoff is fantastic.

It's been a long time since I sat through over an hour of grainy, out of synch, youtube.

Worth every second. Genius.


(ETA a bit Chomsky-ish in his thinking, which is definitely no bad thing.)

Edited by tumble dryer on Saturday 6th January 19:58

[PhilAsia]

[quote=stefan1]
I prefer to judge myself and be judged by others solely on my last drive, not by the list of courses I've done, or the hours of training (formal and informal) I've taken. And I prefer to support and encourage all form of driving development, rather than seek to belittle or judge. I suspect these sentiments will be echoed by many on this thread.

Nailed it!

[Stefluc]

I have been trying to keep track of the debate between all the class 1 drivers but got lost and just when I thought I was getting back on track they changed the topic.

I feel that this is a subject close to my heart and agree and disagree with some of the comments made with regards the burden of proof placed on Police drivers in such a stressful society that we have to drive/police in.

For me every time a police officer embarks on a emergency run/pursuit is a calculated risk to all involved,his/her progress is dictated by Information available to them along with other driver behaviour interaction,for me a lot of incidents involving not just police but any emergency vehicle is down to how the driver deals with the information in front of him,sometimes the sudden change in direction by others causes the incident to happen,leaving the emergency driver in such a position that makes it impossible to be able to stop within the distance they can see to be clear.

Anyone who has driven an emergency vehicle will know what I mean example vehicles stopping hard in front of you not using mirrors on motorway before changing Lane the list goes on and on. I hear you all say this shouldn’t happen and I agree but there are times when instances like this has resulted in prosecutions taking place and rightly or wrongly they should.

What I think I am trying to say is that emergency service drivers in particular Police drivers should have protection in law as they are of a higher standard than the ordinary member of public Based on the evidence and training that they receive . Also the the people who preside and prosecute these small cases thank god,should have a basic understanding of Advanced level of driving ie CPS judges etc and perhaps sit in with certain driver training to see what training they go through and the difficulties they face on a day to day basis.

If this was the case then a lot of cases might never get to court as no emergency driver goes out with the intention of KSI anyone,unlike some of the criminals who go out and say to themselves if the cops try and stop me I will get away from them at whatever cost.

The new legislation hopefully should sort this out and it should incorporate emergency driving protection too. No doubt I will get shot down by ones who have never had and never will get to experience it from behind the seat of a blue light run,but it’s my opinion and it’s based on 28yrs experience.