Undertaking....
Discussion
https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/undertaking-is-not-illegal/ said:
Tony Carter is one of the UK’s leading experts on motorcycle safety and road law following a career as a Police motorcyclist, advanced motorcycle examiner and expert motorcycle accident investigator. Here he takes a look at one of the UK’s most misunderstood road laws – undertaking.
I often get asked about undertaking or what is referred to as the nearside overtake. The most common example is usually found on a motorway when it is clear and we get the centre lane hogger.
Many TV programmes over the years have gone on about it being illegal, but the reality is that nowhere in current traffic law does it say that an undertake is illegal. The reason for this is that apart from the centre lane hogger, congestion is often found close to motorway slip roads during the rush hour and traffic build up becomes substantial.
It is not unusual for lanes two and three (the centre and outside lanes) to be stationary whilst lane one (the left-hand lane) remains empty. If traffic was prohibited from passing along the nearside, then the congestion would be worse than we currently experience.
At the same time, (going back to the centre lane hogger) it is not always practical or safe when you are travelling at 70 and someone is doing 50 in lane two to go from lane one to lane three, bearing in mind that lane one is the normal driving lane.
So is it legal to undertake? Well it is not illegal. The only offence open to the prosecution is either dangerous or careless driving, but to prove these offences it has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the standard of driving fell well below that of a reasonably safe and competent driver, therefore the sole act of a nearside overtake is insufficient. However, weave from lane to lane at high speed, then it may be a different story.
So this raises the question of “What if I decide to undertake and the car in the centre lane decides to move back into the inside lane?”
The driver in the centre lane however does commit the offence of driving without reasonable consideration for other road users (which is a subsection of careless driving), and they also have a statutory duty of care to ensure that it is safe to return to that lane before they actually start to change position.
Now, I am not suggesting for one minute that we all go around undertaking every time we are on a Motorway, but there are occasions when it is reasonable for a number of reasons, and the courts are now recognising this and have found in favour of riders who have undertaken, where before the rider may have decided against making a claim on the basis that they believed that they committed an offence.
Again, it all comes down to the circumstances and the evidence available.
I often get asked about undertaking or what is referred to as the nearside overtake. The most common example is usually found on a motorway when it is clear and we get the centre lane hogger.
Many TV programmes over the years have gone on about it being illegal, but the reality is that nowhere in current traffic law does it say that an undertake is illegal. The reason for this is that apart from the centre lane hogger, congestion is often found close to motorway slip roads during the rush hour and traffic build up becomes substantial.
It is not unusual for lanes two and three (the centre and outside lanes) to be stationary whilst lane one (the left-hand lane) remains empty. If traffic was prohibited from passing along the nearside, then the congestion would be worse than we currently experience.
At the same time, (going back to the centre lane hogger) it is not always practical or safe when you are travelling at 70 and someone is doing 50 in lane two to go from lane one to lane three, bearing in mind that lane one is the normal driving lane.
So is it legal to undertake? Well it is not illegal. The only offence open to the prosecution is either dangerous or careless driving, but to prove these offences it has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the standard of driving fell well below that of a reasonably safe and competent driver, therefore the sole act of a nearside overtake is insufficient. However, weave from lane to lane at high speed, then it may be a different story.
So this raises the question of “What if I decide to undertake and the car in the centre lane decides to move back into the inside lane?”
The driver in the centre lane however does commit the offence of driving without reasonable consideration for other road users (which is a subsection of careless driving), and they also have a statutory duty of care to ensure that it is safe to return to that lane before they actually start to change position.
Now, I am not suggesting for one minute that we all go around undertaking every time we are on a Motorway, but there are occasions when it is reasonable for a number of reasons, and the courts are now recognising this and have found in favour of riders who have undertaken, where before the rider may have decided against making a claim on the basis that they believed that they committed an offence.
Again, it all comes down to the circumstances and the evidence available.
NickGRhodes said:
Another sort of example is the one provided in this article, which quite clearly was, at best, an ill-jugdged manoeuvre.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/the-wrongs-of-under...
MaxSo said:
Yep, I think most who do it intelligently do it such that they glide past the MLM with a small speed differential after having been in lane 1 for some time beforehand, whilst paying close attention to the MLM and making sure the hard shoulder is clear and usable should the MLM suddenly wake up.
Another sort of example is the one provided in this article, which quite clearly was, at best, an ill-jugdged manoeuvre.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/the-wrongs-of-under...
Assuming he wasn't weaving, ducking into lane one to get past then diving back out again, the police made the wrong call here. If lane one is empty and people are moving left to get past someone in lane two, deal with the person in lane two.Another sort of example is the one provided in this article, which quite clearly was, at best, an ill-jugdged manoeuvre.
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/the-wrongs-of-under...
InitialDave said:
Assuming he wasn't weaving, ducking into lane one to get past then diving back out again, the police made the wrong call here. If lane one is empty and people are moving left to get past someone in lane two, deal with the person in lane two.
Doesn't sound like he was weaving, but he did duck (or move) into lane 1 from lane 2 and accelerate. It sounds like he probably got pulled before there was any chance or necessity to move back to lane 2 again.I'd suggest if he'd been in lane 1 earlier and gained on the MLM from lane 1 without accelerating, and then passed the MLM without accelerating, the police would have been far more likely to deal with the MLM than him.
As it was, moving from lane 2 to 1, accelerating, and doing it where a slip road joins, made it much more likely the police were going to deal with him rather than the MLM, who from the police point of view, may have justifiably been in lane 2 in order to allow people to join lane 1 from the slip road.
So to my mind it was definitely ill-judged. Of course, if as the article says, the MLM had been in lane 2 for some time, then the police, had they witnessed that behaviour, should have ideally dealt with the MLM too. Practically, however, they could only deal with one offender, and like I said, we don't know how much of the MLM behaviour the police were witness to.
It is not always so cut and dried. For example the offside / middle lane may have 2 or 3 vehicles only the lead vehicle of which should be moving to the nearside; they may actually be overtaking and causing the concertina of people leaving a gap they are happy with.
I do know people are far more likely to move carelessly to the left, which is only human nature. They will be at fault but the inside undertaker may also face prosecution and possible insurance liability issues. It is top of the CPS list for what constitutes careless or inconsiderate
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic...
Not to mention no matter who is ultimately stuck on or found to be at fault it's always better to be in the wrong rather than an accident. Even in police driver training/driving undertaking is really frowned upon as it is an increased risk.
I do know people are far more likely to move carelessly to the left, which is only human nature. They will be at fault but the inside undertaker may also face prosecution and possible insurance liability issues. It is top of the CPS list for what constitutes careless or inconsiderate
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic...
Not to mention no matter who is ultimately stuck on or found to be at fault it's always better to be in the wrong rather than an accident. Even in police driver training/driving undertaking is really frowned upon as it is an increased risk.
Edited by Graveworm on Thursday 31st May 14:33
Edited by Graveworm on Thursday 31st May 14:34
Graveworm said:
It is not always so cut and dried. For example the offside / middle lane may have 2 or 3 vehicles only the lead vehicle of which should be moving to the nearside; they may actually be overtaking and causing the concertina of people leaving a gap they are happy with.
I do know people are far more likely to move carelessly to the left, which is only human nature. They will be at fault but the inside undertaker may also face prosecution and possible insurance liability issues. Not to mention no matter who is ultimately stuck on or found to be at fault it's always better to be in the wrong rather than an accident. Even in police driver training/driving undertaking is really frowned upon as it is an increased risk.
Yes, I suspect that sometimes people see an empty lane 1 and a vehicle (call it Car A) in lane 2 at the end, or in the middle, of a line of traffic which is, ultimately, being led by a slow MLM, and paint Car A as also being driven by a MLM, when in fact Car A may either essentially be queuing to overtake the MLM from lane 2 (when or if the MLM eventually moves to lane 1), or is looking for a suitable gap to move to lane 3 and overtake from there. This is probably exacerbated when Car A is keeping a safe following distance (which, because it is rare, can make Car A look like it is almost in no man's land - not in the lane 2 'queue', and not in lane 1 - ergo they must be a MLM too.)I do know people are far more likely to move carelessly to the left, which is only human nature. They will be at fault but the inside undertaker may also face prosecution and possible insurance liability issues. Not to mention no matter who is ultimately stuck on or found to be at fault it's always better to be in the wrong rather than an accident. Even in police driver training/driving undertaking is really frowned upon as it is an increased risk.
It's for this reason I generally prefer to be in either lane 1, or lane 3. Just not in the "queue". If lane 1, this is when you can often find yourself with hundreds of metres of empty tarmac ahead of you, and the choice of a) either sitting slightly back from the last lane 2 car (ie at the pace of the MLM); b) gliding along lane 1 past several or more lane 2 cars (undertaking?); or c) finding a safe gap in lane 3 to move into (between the invariable too closely packed cars).
If safe and suitable following distances (ie minimum 2s) were the norm, this would all be much easier to negotiate, regardless of MLMs.
I suppose what I'm saying is, it's all well and good blaming MLMs (who of course are in the wrong), but that doesn't mean there aren't things that other drivers could do differently that would mitigate the impact of the MLM.
Edited by MaxSo on Thursday 31st May 14:58
Funk said:
Things would be made simpler if we just allowed passing on both sides. And allowing people to turn left on a red light with caution (like the US does for turning right on a red).
I think a lot of lane hoggers would either stop hogging lanes OR they'd drive at ridiculous speeds instead, especially those who do it in lane 2 of dual-carriageways and lane 3 of motorways, because all these people are doing is protecting their egos or trying to Police other drivers.Safety wise, and assuming it’s a quiet road, if someone is hogging lane two it’s probably safer to overtake. If the road is clear there is probably zero chance of them moving out to lane 3 or 4 but a slim chance that they might just decide to pull over into lane 1 without looking properly. It’s a given that they shouldn’t be doing it in the first place but if safety is your top priority, best to overtake. I get the entitled piece around the undertake but it all becomes a bit tit for tat. Hopefully more fines being issued will raise awareness and reduce the problem.
Funk said:
The thing I can't fathom is when people who are sat in the wrong lane actually do see you coming and move into the correct lane.....only to then return to the wrong lane again once you've passed them!
The mind boggles, it really does.
I see this at least once a week. I do sometimes want to chat to them to understand better what they’re thinking. Unfortunately I don’t have a warrant card that allows me that privilege.The mind boggles, it really does.
Cliftonite said:
MaxSo said:
<Snip>
And besides, 40mph is the speed limit for a HGV so there's every chance there is a HGV doing 40mph a little further up the road anyway.
<Snip>
NSL limit on single carriageway road for HGV (sic) is now 50 m.p.h. in England.And besides, 40mph is the speed limit for a HGV so there's every chance there is a HGV doing 40mph a little further up the road anyway.
<Snip>
Edited by MaxSo on Friday 1st June 06:45
mko9 said:
Based upon what evidence?
No evidence required, but it would be logical to assume that if the MLM is too unaware to look in their rear view mirror, they certainly won't be looking up their inside either. That risks them pulling left without warning into you, hence earlier comments about having the hard shoulder as an escape route.I've had a MLM pull across my bow as I moved left for a steady undertake. Perhaps they realised what I was about to do, or were simply asleep & reacted to something abnormal.
rambo19 said:
TBH, I think MLM's have no clue that what they are doing is wrong.
There have been occasions where I have been in the left lane doing seventy, noticed I'm am catching someone overtaking an invisible convoy, overtaken them safely going to the middle and right lane, got back to the middle lane ahead of them, flashed my hazard lights a few times before signaling and going back to the left lane. Around 60% of the time the idiot in the middle lane takes a hint and moves over to the left. The other 40% probably had no idea they had just been overtaken at all.
After a while I just give up and stay in the left lane doing seventy no matter who or what is in the other two lanes going slow.
Last time I got from Leeds to the A1(M)-A57 turn off at seventy in the left lane apart from about a dozen trucks and a tractor I passed everything else without leaving the left lane.
The worst was on the M3. The middle and right lane were occupied by a white van and knackered looking Land Rover both doing 58mph. The left was clear and I was directly behind them. After a few miles, headlight flashes to wake them up and even though it was coming up to midnight there was a line of vehicles behind me. I thought...
"Boll
ocks to this!"...undertook in the left lane blasting my horn as I did. At least six cars followed me and did the exact same thing.
Liquid Knight said:
rambo19 said:
TBH, I think MLM's have no clue that what they are doing is wrong.
There have been occasions where I have been in the left lane doing seventy, noticed I'm am catching someone overtaking an invisible convoy, overtaken them safely going to the middle and right lane, got back to the middle lane ahead of them, flashed my hazard lights a few times before signaling and going back to the left lane. Around 60% of the time the idiot in the middle lane takes a hint and moves over to the left. The other 40% probably had no idea they had just been overtaken at all.
After a while I just give up and stay in the left lane doing seventy no matter who or what is in the other two lanes going slow.
Last time I got from Leeds to the A1(M)-A57 turn off at seventy in the left lane apart from about a dozen trucks and a tractor I passed everything else without leaving the left lane.
The worst was on the M3. The middle and right lane were occupied by a white van and knackered looking Land Rover both doing 58mph. The left was clear and I was directly behind them. After a few miles, headlight flashes to wake them up and even though it was coming up to midnight there was a line of vehicles behind me. I thought...
"Boll
ocks to this!"...undertook in the left lane blasting my horn as I did. At least six cars followed me and did the exact same thing.
I rarely sound my horn, if you see a hazard, ease up. If you get annoyed, get past it as swiftly and safely as possible, and let it go. Don’t even come home and write about it!
Funk said:
The thing I can't fathom is when people who are sat in the wrong lane actually do see you coming and move into the correct lane.....only to then return to the wrong lane again once you've passed them!
The mind boggles, it really does.
Easily explained by an old flatmate.The mind boggles, it really does.
You see he was tired, and driving in the middle lane meant the most distance before he'd hit something, should he have a lack of concentration. But he'd move if someone was catching him and he saw them.
I pointed out that lane 2 has lane 3 then a barrier. So 1 lane. While lane 1 has the hard shoulder, then a barrier or perhaps a verge. So 1 lane width+
This was met with some confusion, as the "middle" lane is clearly the "middle" of the road....
Some dips
t in a 17 plate BMW "undertook" me a couple days ago, on a dual carriageway, approaching from behind at stupid speeds, I was indicating left to change to lane 1, he swerved over to lane 1, cutting of another car and then undertook me when I was already most of the way back into lane 1, in fact I think he clipped the kerb.Thought it was a stolen car until I saw it the next day in the same location, driving just as badly.
Dashcam video to the Police and hopefully his employer will get to see it too and take his car off him, put him in a Toyota Yaris instead.
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