How do you know how quick you can take a corner?

[NickGRhodes]

The reference for how fast to go is slightly faster than last time, up to the point of not compromising safety.

[gothatway]

"You only know where the limit is when you go through it."

[BertBert]

fesuvious said:

You're obviously correct, but it's hardly the right advice at this time to give the OP if he is in early thoughts of this.

Limit point and understanding the theory would be first imo

(I probably should have explained why I didn't state the bloody obvious!)

It's absolutely the right advice to give to the OP. Being able to brake properly and knowing how your car behaves is not the thing to be learning in an emergency situation. Two of the Bert offspring have had a lot of braking and on and over limit experience but the youngest hasn't been particularly interested.

So we've just been out doing some learning and practising around braking as well as the limit point. The improvement it makes after only an hour is impressive! And it was great fun as well.

Bert

[stevesingo]

TheBigDawg said:

Now I know that on straights, you can theoretically go a limitless speed, and you won't spin out.

But when it comes to corners, with Newton's Laws of Motion & Centripetal Forces, etc... you can only go so quick, before your tyres will lose grip.

So I'm wondering: how do you know how quick your car can take a corner?
What do you use as a reference to work how fast you can go, and where the limit is?
(or at least, when you're getting close to the limit!)

Thanks for any responses.

They key to the correct answer is in the question.

The question is not how fast the driver should take the corner on the public road in the presence of all the hazards which are present.

It is a question, on the road theoretical on the track practical.

Whilst many of the answers above are correct in terms of how fast should a driver take a corner on the public road, they are not the answer to this question.

Trial and experience with some times some errors is the answer.

Primarily is the innate feedback loop within the human body - applying the action (steering/braking/accelerating) and sensing through the inner ear, seat of pants, steering feel etc the response, and then learning what inputs elicit what responses. Within that is learning what the steering feels like when the limit of grip is approaching and linking that the inner ear/seat of pants feel for acceleration.

Within that is the understanding of the myriad of factors which may effect the car's ability to maintain adhesion in any given situation. Track surface, camber, bumps etc.

It is hugely complex when broken down.

[vonhosen]

fesuvious said:

BertBert said:

fesuvious said:

You're obviously correct, but it's hardly the right advice at this time to give the OP if he is in early thoughts of this.

Limit point and understanding the theory would be first imo

(I probably should have explained why I didn't state the bloody obvious!)

It's absolutely the right advice to give to the OP. Being able to brake properly and knowing how your car behaves is not the thing to be learning in an emergency situation. Two of the Bert offspring have had a lot of braking and on and over limit experience but the youngest hasn't been particularly interested.

So we've just been out doing some learning and practising around braking as well as the limit point. The improvement it makes after only an hour is impressive! And it was great fun as well.

Bert

Having the OP go out to do this before understanding the theory behind it in connection with limit point is daft.

Otherwise it's simply an exercise in braking distances / braking behaviour. Which is not what the OP asked about.

His topic did not state 'How do I know how soon / well my car will pull up under braking in a corner?'

But let's not let the Op's desired outcome get in the way of typically pedantic distractions.

The OP asked about levels of grip, and adhesion in relation to knowing how much speed to carry.

But it is part of the principle of limit points, it's not removed from it.
As such it is a practical exercise in determining (at different speeds in different bends) whether you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road. The exercise is completed as a part of learning about limit points & is a practical exercise in comparing the distance you actually needed to stop to the distance which you thought you needed to stop.

Of course that is a totally different consideration to how fast you can physically get a vehicle around a bend. With modern machinery/tyres it is pretty easy to outrun limit points, which of course is ill advised on public roads.

[BertBert]

Thanks VH, a much more eloquent answer than I was planning.

However it strikes me that in terms of grip and limits, is the g force available under braking, very different to the lateral grip available in corners?

Does an experience of threshold braking which is relatively easy to try out on a straight road help with an understanding of the limit of lateral grip?

Bert

[dvenman]

BertBert said:

Does an experience of threshold braking which is relatively easy to try out on a straight road help with an understanding of the limit of lateral grip?

I don't think so - there's a big difference between the 'g' in braking, where you'll be held against the seatbelt and 'g' in cornering which feels much odder.

Either way, they're much less than the 'g' involved in a crash, which is what we're all trying to avoid here...

[Piersman2]

Apply the same principle as they used to use when building bridges. Build bridge, drive increasingly heavier things across until collapses. Rebuild bridge and put a sign on it limiting weight to slightly less than vehicle that broke it.

So to answer your question directly. Keep driving around the bend faster and faster each time. When you crash, take a note of the speed you were going and then make sure in future to keep slightly below that speed.

HTH.

[IcedKiwi]

Piersman2 said:

Apply the same principle as they used to use when building bridges. Build bridge, drive increasingly heavier things across until collapses. Rebuild bridge and put a sign on it limiting weight to slightly less than vehicle that broke it.

So to answer your question directly. Keep driving around the bend faster and faster each time. When you crash, take a note of the speed you were going and then make sure in future to keep slightly below that speed.

HTH.

Step 3: repeat for every corner

[waremark]

Piersman2 said:

Apply the same principle as they used to use when building bridges. Build bridge, drive increasingly heavier things across until collapses. Rebuild bridge and put a sign on it limiting weight to slightly less than vehicle that broke it.

So to answer your question directly. Keep driving around the bend faster and faster each time. When you crash, take a note of the speed you were going and then make sure in future to keep slightly below that speed.

HTH.

Which is what you do on a Car Limits day with Andy Walsh - except the 'crash' is no more dramatic than crossing a surface change on the airfield. Then you play with braking etc etc. Then you can try with different stability program settings. And he gets you to observe the sensations at different levels of grip. Recommended for the dynamics as opposed to the Roadcraft aspects of this question.

[AER]

On the road the question should not be "how fast can you take a corner?" but "how fast you can take a corner whilst leaving sufficient reserve for a change of plan...?"

[BertBert]

If one makes the assertion that on the road you should really not be getting close to the limit of grip that's actually quite hard.

Going out and finding the limit of grip is fairly straightforward. Going fast and not getting close to the limit is much harder.

Bert

[Toltec]

BertBert said:

If one makes the assertion that on the road you should really not be getting close to the limit of grip that's actually quite hard.

Going out and finding the limit of grip is fairly straightforward. Going fast and not getting close to the limit is much harder.

Bert

Even defining the limit of grip is hard, you can be sliding/drifting, but still get around the bend. I could get around the Carlimits left hand turn at a 20mph higher entry speed by going sideways than keeping within what most would consider the grip limits. At least I could after Andy showed me how to do it.

Not something I would deliberately try on the road, though it does mean you have some recovery options if you get caught out by a surface change.

[Graveworm]

Use all your senses for example
ears are important..
Quiet is fine.
Intake of breath approaching the limit,
screaming uncontrollable probably time to ease off..
This applies even more when you realise that it's you rather than passengers making the noise

[thebraketester]

Feel. Experience.

That’s what a F1 driver would tell you I would imagine.

Feel is a big reason why car simulators are difficult to dip into. In theory you would should be able to drive a car around a track on a simulator very easily.... the thing that is missing is feel. Zero feel

[Toltec]

Graveworm said:

Use all your senses for example
ears are important..
Quiet is fine.
Intake of breath approaching the limit,
screaming uncontrollable probably time to ease off..
This applies even more when you realise that it's you rather than passengers making the noise

I had a girlfriend on pillion scream and start beating my shoulders when I took a roundabout enthusiastically once, the odd thing is once she got a bike she was a complete nutter in corners.

[watchnut]

Slow in, fast out......fast in,st out!.....simples

If a bend is rushing towards you....you are going too fast, if the bend comes towards you, you have lost speed required, it's holding it's own....you are at correct speed,and gear, as bend opens out if you had correct speed, with slight gas on to help "pull you around bend" so that vehicle is neither weight forward and feeling like it's weight is equal then as bend opens out gas in.

Same bend with tyres worn further/summer/winter tyres/pot hole/oil/diesel/water/gravel/mud/low sun/ice/snow/weight in boot/very heavy girlfriend and her blushing and farting mates in back....is very different ....like said before....push it until you crash....then you know you got it wrong

Most of us don't do "track" days, where it is safer to try the limit of your car, and your ability, the ability to stop SAFELY, on your side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear in front of you must always come first

put a heart rate monitor on......if your heart rate is up.....you cocked it up

[BertBert]

thebraketester said:

Feel. Experience.

That’s what a F1 driver would tell you I would imagine.

Feel is a big reason why car simulators are difficult to dip into. In theory you would should be able to drive a car around a track on a simulator very easily.... the thing that is missing is feel. Zero feel

Depends on what sim you are on. Rfactor on a PC at home with toy pedals and a MS force feedback wheel looking at a flat screen is zero feel.
At Williams HQ (like we saw on the recent Guy Martin prog) has a rather better sim.
Also I've found sims with VR headsets are much better than looking at a screen (providing you don't get motion sickness).
Bert

[Thurbs]

Trial and error.

As for references, I could describe each brake point, turn in point and apex point for every circuit I have raced at.

I recently had a "reset" at Brands when I raced slicks for the first time. Takes everything to a whole new level...

[lyonspride]

Too many factors, you just need experience and the correct line.