How do you know how quick you can take a corner?
Discussion
It is a difficult one to quantify. But I'll try.
For me it is a bit of chicken or egg situation. And to bypass that requires some admittance of recklessness.
First you must get a feel for the limits of your vehicle. This is not easy to do quickly or safely. In an ideal world we'd all rent a skid pan or track for a few weekends and approach the subject scientifically in a safe environment. But in the real world for the majority of people that simply isn't viable.
So you start with what you know. Whether they admit to it or not, I'm sure everyone with some experience and who takes interest in their driving will know of sections of local road where they can get some pace on. For me it's a roundabout on my way to work, often empty with lots of soft run off in all directions. Using this along with a few sections of well sighted b-road you can try faster and faster until you can establish 1. The limit of your grip, 2. The feel of the car on the limit and 3. How the car breaks grip, does it understeer? Does it gently transition to flat oversteer, or does it cock a rear wheel and snap into oversteer? And how does your throttle and brake inputs effect your grip?
Finally, and the reason 30 year olds crash less than 17 year olds on the road generally, is how does the road condition effect the above. How do all the above factors relate when it is -5c, or 20c, or wet, or icey or when there is gravel on the road, or undulations. There are thousands of factors which effect your overall grip, and only road experience grants you rough understanding of these factors, then you add in that the factors effect different vehicles differently which adds an extra magnitude of variables.
Once you have a grasp of your own vehicles capabilities, and what factors effect them, you can make observations of the road and just 'know' how what you are seeing is going to effect your vehicle, with this knowledge you can establish a rough 7/10ths cornering speed of a corner after a couple of passes at it at safe road speeds. From this knowledge you then make pass after pass of the corner until you can establish your 9/10ths speed and limit of grip speed. Whilst some driving gods can go full blast on their second pass, for most of us it takes pass after pass after pass to establish your own optimal lines and how your vehicle responds to the corner.
However the chicken and egg situation is as follows, to get to know the limits of the car you need to know how the feel for these limits, and the road you are driving on but to really know the road or the 'feel' you need to drive on the limit. So, at some point your teenager self has chucked your own or your mums car around without knowing what the outcome of your actions where going to be, and this is what has granted you that base line experience of driving dynamics. The outcome for some being facing the wrong direction with some very brown pants, or the proverbial 80s hot hatch upsidedown in a farmers field, but sadly the outcome for others being a Corsa full of parapleged 'aspiring footballers'.
Thus ends my essay trying to quantify 'the force'.
For me it is a bit of chicken or egg situation. And to bypass that requires some admittance of recklessness.
First you must get a feel for the limits of your vehicle. This is not easy to do quickly or safely. In an ideal world we'd all rent a skid pan or track for a few weekends and approach the subject scientifically in a safe environment. But in the real world for the majority of people that simply isn't viable.
So you start with what you know. Whether they admit to it or not, I'm sure everyone with some experience and who takes interest in their driving will know of sections of local road where they can get some pace on. For me it's a roundabout on my way to work, often empty with lots of soft run off in all directions. Using this along with a few sections of well sighted b-road you can try faster and faster until you can establish 1. The limit of your grip, 2. The feel of the car on the limit and 3. How the car breaks grip, does it understeer? Does it gently transition to flat oversteer, or does it cock a rear wheel and snap into oversteer? And how does your throttle and brake inputs effect your grip?
Finally, and the reason 30 year olds crash less than 17 year olds on the road generally, is how does the road condition effect the above. How do all the above factors relate when it is -5c, or 20c, or wet, or icey or when there is gravel on the road, or undulations. There are thousands of factors which effect your overall grip, and only road experience grants you rough understanding of these factors, then you add in that the factors effect different vehicles differently which adds an extra magnitude of variables.
Once you have a grasp of your own vehicles capabilities, and what factors effect them, you can make observations of the road and just 'know' how what you are seeing is going to effect your vehicle, with this knowledge you can establish a rough 7/10ths cornering speed of a corner after a couple of passes at it at safe road speeds. From this knowledge you then make pass after pass of the corner until you can establish your 9/10ths speed and limit of grip speed. Whilst some driving gods can go full blast on their second pass, for most of us it takes pass after pass after pass to establish your own optimal lines and how your vehicle responds to the corner.
However the chicken and egg situation is as follows, to get to know the limits of the car you need to know how the feel for these limits, and the road you are driving on but to really know the road or the 'feel' you need to drive on the limit. So, at some point your teenager self has chucked your own or your mums car around without knowing what the outcome of your actions where going to be, and this is what has granted you that base line experience of driving dynamics. The outcome for some being facing the wrong direction with some very brown pants, or the proverbial 80s hot hatch upsidedown in a farmers field, but sadly the outcome for others being a Corsa full of parapleged 'aspiring footballers'.
Thus ends my essay trying to quantify 'the force'.
caelite said:
The outcome for some being facing the wrong direction with some very brown pants, or the proverbial 80s hot hatch upsidedown in a farmers field, but sadly the outcome for others being a Corsa full of parapleged 'aspiring footballers'.
This about quantifies my expectations when seeing a clapped out golf 5up with 17 year olds anywhere near an NSL B road
Intuition and feel. Once you've got properly used to a car you can basically intuit from its behaviour in previous corners how quickly a certain type of bend should be engaged. If you're properly planning ahead when driving on the road and not just reacting to stuff as it happens, as you approach a bend you should have decided your line through it, as well as what gear you want to be into go through so it's appropriate for intended entry and exit speed.
We took my Lotus Exige out for a drive to a pub for some dinner last night. It was over a road that I've been driving for years but not very often (2 or 3 times a year). So I know the road but not like the back of my hand.
Driving back it was dark and I thought I was keeping track of the upcoming bends and enjoying the drive, there were no other cars about, dry roads and a clear night.
Many of the bends look very similar (especially in the dark with Lotus headlights) and you have to keep track of where you're up to. Suffice to say that I mis-remembered a corner, and my entry speed was a bit quicker than I would have liked. I managed to keep away from the brakes and let the car take the corner. The car went through the corner a lot faster than I would have ever had the balls to and remained completely unconcerned. I drove the rest of the way at a very stately pace.
So, how quick can my Exige take a corner? About twice as fast as I dare to make it would be my guess.
Driving back it was dark and I thought I was keeping track of the upcoming bends and enjoying the drive, there were no other cars about, dry roads and a clear night.
Many of the bends look very similar (especially in the dark with Lotus headlights) and you have to keep track of where you're up to. Suffice to say that I mis-remembered a corner, and my entry speed was a bit quicker than I would have liked. I managed to keep away from the brakes and let the car take the corner. The car went through the corner a lot faster than I would have ever had the balls to and remained completely unconcerned. I drove the rest of the way at a very stately pace.
So, how quick can my Exige take a corner? About twice as fast as I dare to make it would be my guess.
I've got two answers to this one:
1) On the public road, this is mainly down to vision (both how far you can see and how well others can see you), provided you are in sufficient control of the car.
2) On a race track, you feel the grip in response to slip, and you feel the rate of this change as slip increases. When it reaches a peak is the fastest speed you can hold for that radius. After a corner or two, I find I can pretty much commit this to memory if the car is predictable. If the car has downforce, this will need modifying as speed increases, but again after a few corners at different speeds this can be learnt also. The hard bit is then working out how best to balance cornering lines with speed for the fastest way around a lap - if you take each corner on a race track as fast as possible it will not result in the fastest lap time, because you can trade cornering speed for acceleration, and therefore go down straights faster. Senna used to learn a track by starting with the corner prior to the longest straight, to get the biggest gain early on.
1) On the public road, this is mainly down to vision (both how far you can see and how well others can see you), provided you are in sufficient control of the car.
2) On a race track, you feel the grip in response to slip, and you feel the rate of this change as slip increases. When it reaches a peak is the fastest speed you can hold for that radius. After a corner or two, I find I can pretty much commit this to memory if the car is predictable. If the car has downforce, this will need modifying as speed increases, but again after a few corners at different speeds this can be learnt also. The hard bit is then working out how best to balance cornering lines with speed for the fastest way around a lap - if you take each corner on a race track as fast as possible it will not result in the fastest lap time, because you can trade cornering speed for acceleration, and therefore go down straights faster. Senna used to learn a track by starting with the corner prior to the longest straight, to get the biggest gain early on.
It is pretty well about how you get the car rotated on corner entry, if you know the corner and grip level you will know the rotation needed. When you don't know then you want to rotate more than would be ideal so you can loose speed with oversteer if you overdo entry, if you haven't overdone entry you now use the spare by accelerating more. Until you spin. If you can't get enough rotation on entry you just need to sit there and hope you reduce speed enough to rotate more before you buy so evening. Understeer is a b
h!
This assumes you are on a decent line, most people turn in too early.
h!This assumes you are on a decent line, most people turn in too early.
The correct answer to this question is this.
You don’t ever know.
You might think you could have gone quicker but you’re probably too scared, you may have actually gone quicker and you might have crashed, it might be because you lack the skill or you blame the car but for nearly everyone and for absolutely everyone on the road o think the truth is that you don’t know. A top race driver on a race circuit will be so close to their theoretical maximum but even then you’ll often hear most of them say they mad e a mistake on that qualifying lap or they felt there was a little more to give. Not many say, yep that was absolutely perfect and I left nothing on the table.
so the answer is still
You don’t know
You don’t ever know.
You might think you could have gone quicker but you’re probably too scared, you may have actually gone quicker and you might have crashed, it might be because you lack the skill or you blame the car but for nearly everyone and for absolutely everyone on the road o think the truth is that you don’t know. A top race driver on a race circuit will be so close to their theoretical maximum but even then you’ll often hear most of them say they mad e a mistake on that qualifying lap or they felt there was a little more to give. Not many say, yep that was absolutely perfect and I left nothing on the table.
so the answer is still
You don’t know
TheBigDawg said:
Now I know that on straights, you can theoretically go a limitless speed, and you won't spin out.
But when it comes to corners, with Newton's Laws of Motion & Centripetal Forces, etc... you can only go so quick, before your tyres will lose grip.
So I'm wondering: how do you know how quick your car can take a corner?
What do you use as a reference to work how fast you can go, and where the limit is?
(or at least, when you're getting close to the limit!)
Thanks for any responses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-1OqoNHnMEBut when it comes to corners, with Newton's Laws of Motion & Centripetal Forces, etc... you can only go so quick, before your tyres will lose grip.
So I'm wondering: how do you know how quick your car can take a corner?
What do you use as a reference to work how fast you can go, and where the limit is?
(or at least, when you're getting close to the limit!)
Thanks for any responses.
Just plug in 0 degrees for the banking angle and by science you've got an answer
TheBigDawg said:
Now I know that on straights, you can theoretically go a limitless speed, and you won't spin out.
But when it comes to corners, with Newton's Laws of Motion & Centripetal Forces, etc... you can only go so quick, before your tyres will lose grip.
So I'm wondering: how do you know how quick your car can take a corner?
What do you use as a reference to work how fast you can go, and where the limit is?
(or at least, when you're getting close to the limit!)
Thanks for any responses.
Go to somewhere like MB World and book a session to include time on their wet circle - you can learn safely how to read the car / noise / tyres as they approach the point where they lose grip... (you also learn to drift which might help if you go past that point!)But when it comes to corners, with Newton's Laws of Motion & Centripetal Forces, etc... you can only go so quick, before your tyres will lose grip.
So I'm wondering: how do you know how quick your car can take a corner?
What do you use as a reference to work how fast you can go, and where the limit is?
(or at least, when you're getting close to the limit!)
Thanks for any responses.
in reality - on a road - vision / safety will generally reduce your speed more than tyre adhesion...
On a good sighted corner, I take a line that leaves a lot of space on the exit, I then steer somewhat abruptly on turn in. If the car follows my steering closely, I am under the limit. The deviation from my steer command allows me to judge where I am in terms of the limit.
I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
Kawasicki said:
On a good sighted corner, I take a line that leaves a lot of space on the exit, I then steer somewhat abruptly on turn in. If the car follows my steering closely, I am under the limit. The deviation from my steer command allows me to judge where I am in terms of the limit.
I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
Steering abruptly will of course lower that limit. A Heisenberg type situation I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
RobM77 said:
Kawasicki said:
On a good sighted corner, I take a line that leaves a lot of space on the exit, I then steer somewhat abruptly on turn in. If the car follows my steering closely, I am under the limit. The deviation from my steer command allows me to judge where I am in terms of the limit.
I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
Steering abruptly will of course lower that limit. A Heisenberg type situation I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
Kawasicki said:
RobM77 said:
Kawasicki said:
On a good sighted corner, I take a line that leaves a lot of space on the exit, I then steer somewhat abruptly on turn in. If the car follows my steering closely, I am under the limit. The deviation from my steer command allows me to judge where I am in terms of the limit.
I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
Steering abruptly will of course lower that limit. A Heisenberg type situation I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
Kawasicki said:
On a good sighted corner, I take a line that leaves a lot of space on the exit, I then steer somewhat abruptly on turn in. If the car follows my steering closely, I am under the limit. The deviation from my steer command allows me to judge where I am in terms of the limit.
I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
If you are talking about road driving, how do you use that information? You are not about to drive round the same bend again. I've used this for about the past 20 odd years. Works great.
Piersman2 said:
Apply the same principle as they used to use when building bridges. Build bridge, drive increasingly heavier things across until collapses. Rebuild bridge and put a sign on it limiting weight to slightly less than vehicle that broke it.
So to answer your question directly. Keep driving around the bend faster and faster each time. When you crash, take a note of the speed you were going and then make sure in future to keep slightly below that speed.
HTH.
Calvin and Hobbes fan by any chance?So to answer your question directly. Keep driving around the bend faster and faster each time. When you crash, take a note of the speed you were going and then make sure in future to keep slightly below that speed.
HTH.
waremark said:
If you are talking about road driving, how do you use that information? You are not about to drive round the same bend again.
I agree. The road changes constantly, the car too...to a lesser degree.I get a picture of the tyre grip characteristics. I discover how the tyre grip degrades past its peak on multiple road surface types. I learn how the grip behaves due to changing vertical load, for example overs bumps. You can't separate the tyre from the car completely though, as they interact completely. I also learn the yaw and lateral characteristics of the vehicle. The yaw characteristics tell an awful lot.
I build a model in my head for the type of car I am driving.
What do I do with the model? I use it to have more fun driving. Sometimes, more fun means being safer...because putting myself, my family and other road users at unnecessary risk isn't fun. Sometimes more fun is more precision, sometimes more speed.
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