How to pre-empt double apex bends?
Discussion
Driving around Wales, I've been caught out a little by some double apexes - Long sweeping bend followed by short straight or immediate tightening, with no warning that I've been picking up on.
Usually they come with a reasonable amount of <<'s, and a helping of Anti-skid on more primary roads, but on backroads, they can be poorly sighted - Hence I find myself exiting the sweeping section at a reasonable speed, then having to chuck out lots of anchors / a little bit of poo to take the tighter second corner.
The issue seems to stem from the lack of visibility -
Even emerging from the initial bend in position for best visibility into the next bend (width of oncoming traffic allowing), I'm only left with a very short straight in which to bring speed down for the second bend.
Mostly, to preserve some aspect of smoothness, I've just been carrying the braking into the tighter bend - Heavy on the inbound straight, then tapering oooooooooff the brakes (
) and onto the accelerator just as I reach the secondary apex.
Opinions / advice on approach?
Usually they come with a reasonable amount of <<'s, and a helping of Anti-skid on more primary roads, but on backroads, they can be poorly sighted - Hence I find myself exiting the sweeping section at a reasonable speed, then having to chuck out lots of anchors / a little bit of poo to take the tighter second corner.
The issue seems to stem from the lack of visibility -
Even emerging from the initial bend in position for best visibility into the next bend (width of oncoming traffic allowing), I'm only left with a very short straight in which to bring speed down for the second bend.
Mostly, to preserve some aspect of smoothness, I've just been carrying the braking into the tighter bend - Heavy on the inbound straight, then tapering oooooooooff the brakes (
) and onto the accelerator just as I reach the secondary apex.Opinions / advice on approach?
‘The issue seems to stem from the lack of visibility’ (OP)
It does.
Shortening vanishing point, reduce speed
Constant vanishing point, hold speed
Increasing vanishing point, increase speed
(All subject to a clear road on your side of course)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkAtWiRq8Q0
https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/limit-point.html
It does.
Shortening vanishing point, reduce speed
Constant vanishing point, hold speed
Increasing vanishing point, increase speed
(All subject to a clear road on your side of course)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkAtWiRq8Q0
https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/limit-point.html
You could be going too fast (round/out of the corner) for the visibility, you may need to stop by end of the corner you are on, for example of there is a stationary vehicle on the small straight section between the 2 turns in the diagram above.
Edited by NickGRhodes on Thursday 4th October 23:38
Hmm, I think I'm coming on to the power a little early.
As I'm coming out of the first bend as pictured above, I'd be going for the short straight as the limit point extends - Chasing the limit point a little too hard, as it's then going to nill for the tight bend.
I'll have an experiment with coming on to power out a little later tomorrow.
I would say that my present approach leaves me enough time to come to a halt for a stationary obstacle, holding a steady speed for the limit point, though I'd say that I'm usually on the upper end of allowable speed through the corner - If there was a felled tree etc. It would be all of the brakes.
As I'm coming out of the first bend as pictured above, I'd be going for the short straight as the limit point extends - Chasing the limit point a little too hard, as it's then going to nill for the tight bend.
I'll have an experiment with coming on to power out a little later tomorrow.
I would say that my present approach leaves me enough time to come to a halt for a stationary obstacle, holding a steady speed for the limit point, though I'd say that I'm usually on the upper end of allowable speed through the corner - If there was a felled tree etc. It would be all of the brakes.
Edited by Haltamer on Thursday 4th October 23:46
Welshbeef said:
I like taking advice/guidance from a great driver Mr Colin McRae.
“If in doubt FLAT OUT” RIP
“If in doubt FLAT OUT” RIP
I saw a nice shipwreck on the Black mountain pass today; Tight right hander, marked by reflector poles - Sadly about 3 of them had been killed in action, and one was wearing a suzuki bumper hat.
Probably the most effective "SLOW" warning is a decent size hole in the hedge / guardrail and debris
I walked back up the (very foggy) hill to grab a piece to show to a friend who can be overenthusiastic, and as a nice souvenir, and could see that the debris was strewn all the way down the hill - Any actual wreck was either gone or concealed by fog.
If the red suzuki part belongs to anyone here, I'd be happy to arrange it's return
Haltamer said:
Hmm, I think I'm coming on to the power a little early.
As I'm coming out of the first bend as pictured above, I'd be going for the short straight as the limit point extends - Chasing the limit point a little too hard, as it's then going to nill for the tight bend.
I'll have an experiment with coming on to power out a little later tomorrow.
I would say that my present approach leaves me enough time to come to a halt for a stationary obstacle, holding a steady speed for the limit point, though I'd say that I'm usually on the upper end of allowable speed through the corner - If there was a felled tree etc. It would be all of the brakes.
...but not all ‘wide’ vehicles come with an advanced escort! In one of those clips ‘being able to stop within HALF the distance you can see to be clear’ is quoted.As I'm coming out of the first bend as pictured above, I'd be going for the short straight as the limit point extends - Chasing the limit point a little too hard, as it's then going to nill for the tight bend.
I'll have an experiment with coming on to power out a little later tomorrow.
I would say that my present approach leaves me enough time to come to a halt for a stationary obstacle, holding a steady speed for the limit point, though I'd say that I'm usually on the upper end of allowable speed through the corner - If there was a felled tree etc. It would be all of the brakes.
Edited by Haltamer on Thursday 4th October 23:46
It is rare but not impossible there will be someone on your side of the road coming toward you (my last experience was a snowplough with a blade the width of the road coming downhill, blade up, toward me) on a relatively snow-free road. I managed to stop OK, just.
Tried a nice road with some switchbacks taking a lower entry speed and not coming on to the power with so much enthusiasm, and things smoothed out nicely - Probably saved a sport bike, too, who was doing a classic MotoGP Lean on the centerline around one bend - Gave me some more margin to make room so he didn't embed his face in the headlight / wing.
Bigends said:
Keep an eye on treeline, lampost / telegraph post lines on the approach - theyll give some idea as the the severity of the bend
Be very cautious about this. Out in the country, telegraph poles often veer out across fields to a farm. They are not always a reliable indicator.Dr Jekyll said:
Pica-Pica said:
...but not all ‘wide’ vehicles come with an advanced escort! In one of those clips ‘being able to stop within HALF the distance you can see to be clear’ is quoted.
I'm always a bit dubious about this, it assumes the oncoming vehicle isn't going any faster than you.About a week later saw one of our local WRC hero wannabees driving exactly as if it were a stage on closed roads, so clearly some actually do that.
If driving to standard roadcraft methods, this shouldn't be an issue. You read the road ahead and adjust your speed accordingly. It sounds like if something's out of sight you're assuming there's a straight, which of course is an assumption based on zero evidence. They may be a horse in the road, or a broken down tractor, or of course another corner...
Sounds like you're either not observing as well as you could, or are getting on the gas too much before you have sufficient view. Looking but not really seeing is surprisingly common, as is unjustified optimism about how severe the next bend is going to be.
This is the kind of thing that's much easier to diagnose in the car though. A co-driver that's experienced enough to spot what's going on will be able to give you the kind of insight that is very hard to get on your own.
This is the kind of thing that's much easier to diagnose in the car though. A co-driver that's experienced enough to spot what's going on will be able to give you the kind of insight that is very hard to get on your own.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Sounds like you're either not observing as well as you could, or are getting on the gas too much before you have sufficient view. Looking but not really seeing is surprisingly common, as is unjustified optimism about how severe the next bend is going to be.
This is the kind of thing that's much easier to diagnose in the car though. A co-driver that's experienced enough to spot what's going on will be able to give you the kind of insight that is very hard to get on your own.
This is the kind of thing that's much easier to diagnose in the car though. A co-driver that's experienced enough to spot what's going on will be able to give you the kind of insight that is very hard to get on your own.
A co driver is harder to find, hence the internet serving in it's place
As above, after giving it some thought and adjustment I'd say you're correct - I'm coming on with too much power when the limit point begins to creep, without allowing it time for the view to fully open. Getting carried away with the nice roads!
I do look forward to the next opportunity to get some instructed time!
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