How to pre-empt double apex bends?

[Haltamer]

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

Whereabouts in the country are you?

South East; Essex area (Rainham) - Chelmsford is the closest bet for IAM, But that's still a reasonable way to go from where I am.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

That's a bit far East for me to offer a drive, but I know there are some active IAM groups in the area.

[Haltamer]

S. Gonzales Esq. said:

That's a bit far East for me to offer a drive, but I know there are some active IAM groups in the area.

I'd take you up on the offer if I was in the region!


I'll see about trying out some of the local groups, It's something I've been meaning to do for a while.

[BertBert]

It's limit point pure and simple. There's nothing special about a double apex bend. It's just two bends close to each other. Using the limit point will keep you in check on the exit of bend 1. There's not great mystery in this.

Is it that you are thinking of tightening bend perhaps?

Bert

[Solocle]

FiF said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Pica-Pica said:

...but not all ‘wide’ vehicles come with an advanced escort! In one of those clips ‘being able to stop within HALF the distance you can see to be clear’ is quoted.

I'm always a bit dubious about this, it assumes the oncoming vehicle isn't going any faster than you.

I once offered up a bit of commentary along the lines of "if I met myself coming the other way" to get a response of "OK but what if the other guy has zero regard for that and is travelling as fast as the road will physically allow."

About a week later saw one of our local WRC hero wannabees driving exactly as if it were a stage on closed roads, so clearly some actually do that.

I think that the point is that, if you do crash, they're responsible for it! After all, there are numpties who overtake on blind bends, in which case there's simply nothing that you can do. If people plough into stationary objects, they can plough into you.

[FiF]

Solocle said:

FiF said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Pica-Pica said:

...but not all ‘wide’ vehicles come with an advanced escort! In one of those clips ‘being able to stop within HALF the distance you can see to be clear’ is quoted.

I'm always a bit dubious about this, it assumes the oncoming vehicle isn't going any faster than you.

I once offered up a bit of commentary along the lines of "if I met myself coming the other way" to get a response of "OK but what if the other guy has zero regard for that and is travelling as fast as the road will physically allow."

About a week later saw one of our local WRC hero wannabees driving exactly as if it were a stage on closed roads, so clearly some actually do that.

I think that the point is that, if you do crash, they're responsible for it! After all, there are numpties who overtake on blind bends, in which case there's simply nothing that you can do. If people plough into stationary objects, they can plough into you.

Hmmm, not sure about the point being if they crash they're responsible for it.

I think that regardless of the rights and wrongs a collision, be it head on or whatever, with someone travelling in the opposite direction at 60, 70, 100 or whatever they can achieve is going to spoil your day, maybe spoil your life and to be avoided.

That's the point at hand.

[otolith]

FiF said:

Hmmm, not sure about the point being if they crash they're responsible for it.

I think that regardless of the rights and wrongs a collision, be it head on or whatever, with someone travelling in the opposite direction at 60, 70, 100 or whatever they can achieve is going to spoil your day, maybe spoil your life and to be avoided.

That's the point at hand.

There's a limit to how much you can protect yourself from acts of clod, unless you are going to never leave your house.

[akirk]

Haltamer said:

South East; Essex area (Rainham) - Chelmsford is the closest bet for IAM, But that's still a reasonable way to go from where I am.

If you are happy to drive from Essex to Wales to enjoy the roads - you will enjoy them even more if you spend a bit of time driving to Chelmsford for some learning

if you are interested in driving - really worth pushing yourself to improve...
double bends / confusing bends / just bends really - not taught in the basic L test, so there is lots that can help
if you are 26 and under next summer you may find that the young drivers day is run again by the High Performance Course: http://www.high-performance-course.com/ (someone usually posts on here - sometimes me ) and amongst other content a chunk of that day is about dealing with bends...

[Haltamer]

akirk said:

If you are happy to drive from Essex to Wales to enjoy the roads - you will enjoy them even more if you spend a bit of time driving to Chelmsford for some learning

if you are interested in driving - really worth pushing yourself to improve...
double bends / confusing bends / just bends really - not taught in the basic L test, so there is lots that can help
if you are 26 and under next summer you may find that the young drivers day is run again by the High Performance Course: http://www.high-performance-course.com/ (someone usually posts on here - sometimes me ) and amongst other content a chunk of that day is about dealing with bends...

I was there for the day earlier this year!
About ready for another one now, Glad to hear that there's another - I'll get booked in, May even entice some friends!

Oxford, Wales, Germany, I'm ticking them off the list - But Chelmsford is just a bit too far I'm sure without anything to do in the weekends I can get some time penned in over winter.

[jamiehamy]

Are there no signs warning of a double bend? I just did a google maps check of some that I know of and it was as I remembers - a red triangle with double bend warning. Can't be relied on always being there but generally does provide an additional early indication of the bend over and above other things, like fencing, electricity poles, flashes of traffic through trees and so on. One of the examples wasn't a double bend however provides an amusing 'Right hand bend' indicator when the road clearly goes left (and then right). https://goo.gl/maps/PihCumNdwrD2 .


Other example later down a road nearby https://goo.gl/maps/WRbCYsWESX82 .

[akirk]

Haltamer said:

akirk said:

If you are happy to drive from Essex to Wales to enjoy the roads - you will enjoy them even more if you spend a bit of time driving to Chelmsford for some learning

if you are interested in driving - really worth pushing yourself to improve...
double bends / confusing bends / just bends really - not taught in the basic L test, so there is lots that can help
if you are 26 and under next summer you may find that the young drivers day is run again by the High Performance Course: http://www.high-performance-course.com/ (someone usually posts on here - sometimes me ) and amongst other content a chunk of that day is about dealing with bends...

I was there for the day earlier this year!
About ready for another one now, Glad to hear that there's another - I'll get booked in, May even entice some friends!

Oxford, Wales, Germany, I'm ticking them off the list - But Chelmsford is just a bit too far I'm sure without anything to do in the weekends I can get some time penned in over winter.

Young Driver's Day is not usually confirmed until nearer the time - so keep an eye out for announcements... (I was also there this year - with the M5)

If you feel ready for another such day, then def. don't do one day a year, go and sign up with IAM or RoSPA

[jamiehamy]

Sorry, just realised I've midread. However there is an example nearby with a warning of sorts. https://goo.gl/maps/WRbCYsWESX82https://goo.gl/maps/WRbCYsWESX82

If you're going too fast, then very easy to miss the second one and boom!

[Haltamer]

akirk said:

Young Driver's Day is not usually confirmed until nearer the time - so keep an eye out for announcements... (I was also there this year - with the M5)

If you feel ready for another such day, then def. don't do one day a year, go and sign up with IAM or RoSPA

I think I spoke to you over bacon rolls in the morning!
I'll have a look and see what's available. I've been looking at booking in for some carlimits & similar in the mean time, too.

[akirk]

Haltamer said:

I think I spoke to you over bacon rolls in the morning!
I'll have a look and see what's available. I've been looking at booking in for some carlimits & similar in the mean time, too.

Ahh yes
Car limits and the like are good for handling skills but not the best for real life road driving - for that either start gradually with IAM / RoSPA and build up the skills or better (but a bit pricier, though still great value) go to one of the course managers of the high performance course - cost will be a couple of tanks of fuel and probably the best money you will ever spend on your driving - sessions with coaches of that calibre will give a higher performance upgrade to your driving then spending the same money modding your car - and no extra insurance cost!

[Scott OSRS]

You cannot predict the future, so the way I see it you have two options:

•Brake for the first apex, then balanced throttle once limit point starts moving away from you to maintain speed through the initial part of the bend, then back on brakes again for the second apex once the limit point starts moving back towards you

•On a corner where you’re concerned there may be a double apex, eg view through it is obscured by hedges and limit point seems stationary/matched instead of running away on entry, lose the bulk of your speed for the initial apex such that you hit the first apex at a safe speed, but instead of getting back on the gas for a balanced throttle, cover the brakes incase there is a second apex coming up, only getting back on gas once the view opens up and you know for a fact you can commit to putting your foot down

The first option is I feel what Roadcraft advocates, however in practice I find it:

•Often creates a brown trousers moment when the limit point suddenly tightens again
•Makes for firm, stabby braking for the second apex, as you often don’t have time for a nice 3-phase brake when the corner suddenly tightens on you
•In my experience, advanced instructors/examiners will almost always criticise you, as to a passenger it looks like you have gotten your initial entry speed wrong and therefore had to brake again in the corner - if you try to explain your mid-corner braking was actually for a second apex, it just looks like excuses after-the-fact

Second option I don’t think really goes fully with Roadcraft, as it means you aren’t keeping a steady speed on a balanced throttle around the first part of the bend, but it makes for a much nicer drive when you do encounter a double apex and my advanced tutor never criticised me for doing it.