Driving courses for 14 y.o.

[Dixy]

Len Woodman said:

Anyway, I have related my point from an Australian view. If an under-17 program is available and the parents are convinced that it is a good thing to do and that the young drivers' attitudes are sound then it can't hurt. From an individual point that's fine. But like 'advanced drivers' it seems that the number of new drivers going through the U17CC is very small and is unlikely to contribute greatly to crash reduction.

Yes I agree the numbers are low, despite constant efforts. but this does prove it works. http://u17ccctrust.org/research/

[MarkwG]

Len Woodman said:

MarkwG said:

It sounds like your daughters driving pathway wasn't that different to my sons; except, he covered over 10000 miles, & around 300 hours driving, all before he undertook his driving test. That gave him a level of competence was well beyond the minimum required here, & a much better attitude to driving safely. Since then, he's driven many more thousands of miles, on some of the most congested & busy roads in this part of the world. Hopefully his younger brother will do the same.

The link I provided is to a road safety charity, non-profit making, involved in young driver training - so the only axe to grind is the desire to improve road safety. With any data set there are bound to be flaws: it could reasonably be argued the people most likely to participate are those more risk averse & hence less likely to be at risk anyway, but that doesn't detract from the basic principle. My family have been involved since my eldest son was 11 - he's 21 now, & one of the best & safest road drivers I know; I'm hopeful his younger brother will follow suit.

Was the 10000 miles and 300 hours before on-road training? 33.3 mph is quite a high average for a learner on congested roads. Or was that whilst a provisional licence was held and on-road? And over what period? If over a year it's quite impressive to spend almost six hours a week tuition/supervision.

Charities have to make money to pay their staff and overheads to exist, even if all staff are unpaid volunteers.

Yes, it was from the year of his 12th birthday, he was 11 years 4 months when he started, until he reached 17; on average two Sundays a month, February to end of November. it's not unusual, it depends on how many Sundays you can dedicate to it: last season, one of our members recorded exactly how much driving his lad did, they travelled 5950 miles travelling to & from, & their boy drove 2100 miles whilst at the venues. We run over 30 sessions a year, so, if you start as early as possible, & visit as often as you can, it soon mounts up. At our bigger events, it's not unusual to see over 100 vehicles, so there's plenty of other traffic to learn with.

Once he went onto the road, he needed probably around ten sessions of road experience, to get familiar with the low standard of road driving around here, & then passed his test. He's not particularly car mad, however a number of his club peers are; he reached Grade 1 (graded from 5 to 1 numerically, with Grade X above 1). Grade X was attained by one of his compatriots in his final year, she was assessed by an independent IAM senior observer, at club venues, & also once on the road, & achieved an excellent score, this within months of her 17th birthday & passing her full licence test. I'm not an IAM member, so don't recall what their system is based on, but whenever their people visit us they leave open mouthed with how well the youngsters handle the cars & themselves.

The Under 17 Car Club has NO paid employees - everyone, from the Trustees to the Instructor team & Marshals give their time for free.

[Len Woodman]

MarkwG said:

It sounds like your daughters driving pathway wasn't that different to my sons;

No I don't think so. All new drivers under 25 have to do the following, most doing it all in one year:

Graduated Licencing Scheme – All NSW Drivers under 25

1. Take and pass Driver Knowledge Test and qualify for a Learner’s Licence at age 16 which must be held for a minimum of one year.
2. Complete a minimum of 120 hours supervised driving which can be brought down to 80 hours if a professional instructor is used for 15 hours. A minimum of 20 hours must be completed at night.
3. A log-book is issued to record drives that a learner wishes to be included and must be presented to the examiner before the driving test. This has been paper based but is changing to electronic which allows easier checking of content. Examiner can review entries and delete those not regarded as accurate. If this reduces the total recorded hours below 120 the driving test is cancelled.
4. The 120 hours experience should cover all combinations – urban, motorway, rural, unsealed, city, heavy/light traffic, wet roads etc. Usually not a problem over 12 months.
5. After 10 months the Hazard Perception Test has to be completed before the Driver Ability Road Test at no younger than 17 yrs old. Test is quite pedantic and very easy to fail because of the criteria set.
6. When passed - Red P Plates for one year. Restrictions on use of hand-held phones and powerful vehicles (over 130 kW/tonne) and car occupancy.
7. After one year - Green P Plates for a further two years. Restrictions on use of hand-held phones and powerful vehicles (over 130 kW/tonne) and car occupancy.

Some, like my daughter are luckier. As a licenced instructor I need only have taken her for 80 hours but we had time to get in 145 hours* practical on road (where real hazards exist) driving experience following accredited structured lesson plans.

• Not including any drives under 45 minutes – ie to shops, school etc.

Plenty of time to learn commentary driving, system of car control and even driving on snow (she wasn’t happy about putting snow chains on the car). All done in real life situations with real hazards – pedestrians, dogs, cyclists, trucks, including road trains etc. And a few hundred or more cars.

And her dad thinks that she is one of the best and safest drivers he has seen. One year to go and she will be doing a heavy vehicle course.

If, in 2019 someone can get a licence to drive in just 12 or so hours of real world experience that’s scary.

If I was an outsider I know who I would chose to be a passenger with. It all matches what TRL have found.

[Dixy]

It is interesting how many country's now let people start learning at 16 but not take any test until they are 17, I think this is a good idea, perhaps with black boxes this could become a monitorable advantage.
Don't be too scathing of the practice taking place away from public roads, it is not to difficult to get it close to real world and has the advantage that they can explore the dynamics of different cars at higher speeds.
My son was 14 when he drove his first artic with a splitter box. that sort of experience and resultant knowledge is invaluable.

[watchnut]

an interesting read about the policy of NSW.

I have driven extensively in Western Australia, and found the general standard of driving to be very poor. I don't know the WA laws of obtaining a licence but I assume they are different to NSW

Any form of driver training is better for new younger drivers than non at all, but the system in NSW looks like it is open to abuse and fraud as to how many hours can be verified as have been taken?

Here in the UK just about all of my customers are only interested in passing a test as cheaply and quickly as possible.

Most of my customers take between 35-50 hours to pass the test here.

Before any one starts on "I only had 10 hours and passed first time!".....the driving test is very different and harder than the one most of us took 20/30/40 years ago, and most drivers in my experience would fail a modern driving test

I do very very few "pass plus" courses, as mentioned earlier, the insurance companies do not give a decent enough discount to one haven been taken to make modern day kids think it is worth their while.

In fact for the whole of 2018 i only did 3 (one of those was my son)

In 2017 I only did 4 and one of those was my daughter......there is little incentive over here for "additional" training except from the VERY few parents who really care about the best start in driving for their kids

Motorway driving with an ADI (approved driving instructor....with dual controls) only became legal wef June 2018. About bloody time.......most of the users of the motorway network in the UK have never been trained in how to use them, hence the crappy standards of driving on them, maybe over time this will improve, as all my customers now have at least a 2 hour "introduction" to the M3/M27to help them "POST" test.

I also do a 2 hour rural drive around the New Forest to help them understand the "issues" of dealing with wild animals roaming the roads (not quite Kangaroos and crocs....but the best the UK can provide (Having been warned not to drive at dusk in WA, and having a monster Roo jump across the front of the car where I first saw it as it landed just missing it I realised that adrenaline is brown and smelly!)

I do a second rural drive on higher speed national speed limits on "A" and "B" roads in Hampshire/Wiltshire which they all enjoy, but again better prepares them for post test driving.

I have had a couple of students come to me saying that they had done some laps previously in car parks with one or two of these companies that encourage them with a view to getting them as customers when they are 17, but found they are not really any better or worse than someone who has never sat behind a wheel before. sometimes when a good meaning parent tries to take a son/daughter around a trading estate to get them changing gear etc......I spend a lot of time getting them out of bad habits passed on by said parents, like coasting around corners, clutch in before braking, foot resting on clutch, hand on stick, elbows on side of door, etc....the list goes on.

I am not so sure the graduated driving licence is the best step forward, as every country has different cultures, I can tell when a customer is going to be a better driver?bad driver and easier/harder to teach/coach because for the 17 years they have watched their parents driving they are influenced by them,

At least in Australia you don't accept some driving licences from neighbouring countries as an equivalent and allow them to drive on your roads, some of the eastern european drivers we have over here now are terrifying !!

[Len Woodman]

watchnut said:

an interesting read about the policy of NSW.

I have driven extensively in Western Australia, and found the general standard of driving to be very poor. I don't know the WA laws of obtaining a licence but I assume they are different to NSW

Any form of driver training is better for new younger drivers than non at all, but the system in NSW looks like it is open to abuse and fraud as to how many hours can be verified as have been taken?

Yes the standard of driving across Australia is poor when compared with the UK. This has been reflected in the crash data. However, particularly in Victoria and NSW there has been quite a significant improvement since the 1980s when there were 25 fatalities per 100,000 people. Now (2018) it’s around 4.5 (over five times improvement). In this period the number of vehicles has more than doubled and the population has increased by 50%, with a high level of immigration contributing to this data. In the same period the UK, starting from a very good base has also improved bringing the numbers down by two-thirds. So statistically we are catching up.

Because we started at such a woeful position drastic measures were taken and this included introducing GLS in 2000. It has changed over the years.
The overall change in driver behaviour seems quite slow, but I have been involved since 2000. The problem is that there are still a high percentage of drivers who did not go through GLS – almost anyone over 35. From 2003 when the first GLS students started to get full licences they still had to mix with the masses of poor drivers and many succumbed to the lower standards of their environment. But over another fifteen years the GLS trained drivers have become a greater proportion and that is what is contributing to the improved statistics. As a fleet trainer I get drivers who have just passed the test and drivers who have been driving 40 years. I can make a judgement on this.

We may catch up with the UK one day. Maybe GLS is not for the UK as (I agree) the culture is different.

Abuse and fraud has been a problem, but has declined over the past ten years. The logbook is considered a legal document as a Statutory Declaration. The learner and the key supervisor must sign the document – at each competency level.

Making a false statutory declaration is a criminal offence which means that, if convicted, they will get a criminal record. It is punishable by up to five years in prison, which is unlikely but, fines for the offence can often number into the thousands of dollars. And the courts may allow the authority to refuse further driving licence applications.

Examiners are very ‘good’ at looking through the logbook and picking out the dodgy entries. They will cross out any entries with over two hours continuous driving, where dates, times and locations don’t seem to match etc. One of the first indications is where the logbook has just 120 hours entered! And if a learner is very bad on their test having stated that they have done 120 hours !!!????

It’s even easier now as the logbook is transferring to an app! Which is what most young people want. And a database of maps, weather conditions etc. plus the date, time and location of each entry all used by the authority means it will be very difficult to bodge.

When I was an ADI (late 70s) we used the calculation of roughly one and a half hours per year of age and most young people couldn’t afford lessons until they had worked for a while and were about 19-22 or so. So around thirty lessons and most would have at least that practicing so they did 60 hours or so all on public roads. If there was a planned program of instruction then it was almost a voluntary GLS.

In Australia up to 1990s, it was common for a lad to have a few runs around ‘the paddock’ or nearby gravel pit and a bit of practice on the road whilst waiting for their test date. A few might have a lesson or two from a “driving instructor” and take a test. If they failed they came back next day. In rural areas the local cop was the examiner. After the test it was down to the pub to celebrate with their dad and brothers and mates.

[watchnut]

cheers Len, interesting to see how you do it over there, I have read some things on the way you do it over there, and there is a small pressure group trying to get a similar one in the UK, but if we do so I doubt it would be on the scale of NSW......cheers

[Carlson W6]

My 16 year old has been having weekly lessons at Kempton Park with this outfit.

https://www.youngdriver.eu/

Highly recommended

[richard sails]

I joined my lad into the Under 17 Car Club and can highly recommend it. He drives to an extremely high standard ALL of the time, not just when I’m in the car with him. While initially for him it was a fun thing to do aged 13, by the time he was 15 he was very serious about it. At 15 he drove the Gloucester Chief of Police round at an event and the Chief was very impressed with his driving standards then.

Through the club he has driven a huge range of different cars from Toyota Aygos to Audi R8’s a Police BMW traffic car (and he got to try the launch control on that) and of course all my TVR’s. He has also driven many vans, 7.5 tonners and even Artics and Busses and towed trailors. He has been on off road courses, stunt driving courses, Caterham drifting courses, skid pan courses and has had to pass a first aid course too.

When he turned 17, I insisted we do plenty of time in the car on the roads before he took his test. We went out both days every weekend for about eight hours a day, often in the worst conditions, including fog, snow and howling gales and including night time.

After two months of practice on real roads he passed his test easily and takes pride in his ability to drive long distances in any conditions and always to an advanced standard. He is now a marshal for the U17CC and can drive the Aygo round Castle Combe with a faster lap time than me. His friends always want him to drive as they see just how different his driving style is to theirs and I have a lot less worry when he is out on the roads than I would have had otherwise.

My daughter is now taking the same route. How many dads can say their kids take copies of Roadcraft and the Highway Code upstairs to read at bedtime?

As it’s based in the south and we live in the North I spent a lot of time looking at other groups and methods of teaching the kids but nothing I looked at came close to the level of training the kids get at the Under 17 Car Club.

I cannot recommend the club highly enough, both kids drive to the system (Roadcraft) and take pride in their abilities. The other benefit is that you get to spend lots of quality time with your teenager kids AND they want to spend that time with you. The only issue is it’s a big commitment in time, we probably do 20 weekends a year with the club and it’s a long way from the North West.

edited to add;

Just a word of warning, you will need to join soon if your daughter is already 14 as there is a cut of age above which the club will not accept kids as its not a quick job to get kids up to that level. Hence the comments earlier in this thread from someone who has not seen the way the U17CC works that pre-teaching kids driving does not work according to some research, of course it will not unless its a LOT of training, my lad did over 130 FULL days (about six hours each day) of training before he was 17, over 780 hours in simulated traffic conditions and 60 hours on roads is very different from 10 or 20 one hour lessons.

And another benefit is that your own driving standards will improve considerably too.

Edited by richard sails on Thursday 14th February 10:34

[Len Woodman]

Driver 2020. This research may eventually give a definitive answer. I'm sure many of you in the UK know someone who can take part.

https://despatch.blog.gov.uk/2019/05/17/new-resear...