Are brake lights at junctions the new front fog lights?
Discussion
DoubleD said:
jamei303 said:
nonsequitur said:
Lazy driving extends way beyond foot on the brake. A bit of said driving could affect you and yours one day, so we should all care about that style of motoring.
Using the foot brake is not lazy driving because it requires more concentration than using the handbrake. However lazy drivers do use the handbrake when they can't be bothered to keep their foot on the pedal. See also: cruise control, intermittent wipers, central locking and starter motors. As stated earlier footbrake useage is only a tiny part of the overall picture. At the heart of that picture is the fact that ' The rules don't apply to me '.
Non indicating, breaking speed limits, running red lights, not giving way in the required situation, Driving to the conditions (but not THE conditions, the drivers interpretation of the conditions), Bad parking. These are some but by no means all, indications of lazy driving.
Lazy = Can't be bothered to do it the right way, I'll go my own way.
nonsequitur said:
think you are getting lazy driving confused between the effort used and the mental attitude that accompanies such driving.
As stated earlier footbrake useage is only a tiny part of the overall picture. At the heart of that picture is the fact that ' The rules don't apply to me '.
Non indicating, breaking speed limits, running red lights, not giving way in the required situation, Driving to the conditions (but not THE conditions, the drivers interpretation of the conditions), Bad parking. These are some but by no means all, indications of lazy driving.
Lazy = Can't be bothered to do it the right way, I'll go my own way.
But people who use a handbrake every time dont do any of the above?As stated earlier footbrake useage is only a tiny part of the overall picture. At the heart of that picture is the fact that ' The rules don't apply to me '.
Non indicating, breaking speed limits, running red lights, not giving way in the required situation, Driving to the conditions (but not THE conditions, the drivers interpretation of the conditions), Bad parking. These are some but by no means all, indications of lazy driving.
Lazy = Can't be bothered to do it the right way, I'll go my own way.
nonsequitur said:
think you are getting lazy driving confused between the effort used and the mental attitude that accompanies such driving.
As stated earlier footbrake useage is only a tiny part of the overall picture. At the heart of that picture is the fact that ' The rules don't apply to me '.
Non indicating, breaking speed limits, running red lights, not giving way in the required situation, Driving to the conditions (but not THE conditions, the drivers interpretation of the conditions), Bad parking. These are some but by no means all, indications of lazy driving.
Lazy = Can't be bothered to do it the right way, I'll go my own way.
Dozens of people have explained the various nuances of individual vehicles that make it not the right way. It’s often just a design feature and nothing to do with the driver themselves.As stated earlier footbrake useage is only a tiny part of the overall picture. At the heart of that picture is the fact that ' The rules don't apply to me '.
Non indicating, breaking speed limits, running red lights, not giving way in the required situation, Driving to the conditions (but not THE conditions, the drivers interpretation of the conditions), Bad parking. These are some but by no means all, indications of lazy driving.
Lazy = Can't be bothered to do it the right way, I'll go my own way.
In the old days where no cars had any form of auto hold and 90% were manuals with a manual handbrake you’d have an argument but nowadays not so much.
nonsequitur said:
DoubleD said:
jamei303 said:
nonsequitur said:
Lazy driving extends way beyond foot on the brake. A bit of said driving could affect you and yours one day, so we should all care about that style of motoring.
Using the foot brake is not lazy driving because it requires more concentration than using the handbrake. However lazy drivers do use the handbrake when they can't be bothered to keep their foot on the pedal. See also: cruise control, intermittent wipers, central locking and starter motors. As stated earlier footbrake useage is only a tiny part of the overall picture. At the heart of that picture is the fact that ' The rules don't apply to me '.
Non indicating, breaking speed limits, running red lights, not giving way in the required situation, Driving to the conditions (but not THE conditions, the drivers interpretation of the conditions), Bad parking. These are some but by no means all, indications of lazy driving.
Lazy = Can't be bothered to do it the right way, I'll go my own way.
Handbrake use or lack thereof, is only a tiny part of lazy driving. I have listed just some of the tendencies of that style of driving and have summed up in one sentence my belief as to the mindset of said drivers.
djc206 said:
Dozens of people have explained the various nuances of individual vehicles that make it not the right way. It’s often just a design feature and nothing to do with the driver themselves.
In the old days where no cars had any form of auto hold and 90% were manuals with a manual handbrake you’d have an argument but nowadays not so much.
It's interesting that vehicle design/capability is getting to the point that cars make decisions/take actions that, varying manufacturer to manufacturer, might contradict road craft (purposely in small caps) best practice. In the old days where no cars had any form of auto hold and 90% were manuals with a manual handbrake you’d have an argument but nowadays not so much.
janesmith1950 said:
djc206 said:
Dozens of people have explained the various nuances of individual vehicles that make it not the right way. It’s often just a design feature and nothing to do with the driver themselves.
In the old days where no cars had any form of auto hold and 90% were manuals with a manual handbrake you’d have an argument but nowadays not so much.
It's interesting that vehicle design/capability is getting to the point that cars make decisions/take actions that, varying manufacturer to manufacturer, might contradict road craft (purposely in small caps) best practice. In the old days where no cars had any form of auto hold and 90% were manuals with a manual handbrake you’d have an argument but nowadays not so much.
janesmith1950 said:
vonhosen said:
Roadcraft is targeted at such a small proportion of drivers, it's not on the radar of manufacturers.
Not Roadcraft as in the book, rather, road craft, as in the pursuit of accepted/recognised good practice. Most vehicle manufacturing isn't in this country.
[quote=DickyC]Of course, it might be that manufacturers, realising that most drivers hold their cars on the foot brake, decided to have the brake lights showing with either foot brake or parking brake to demonstrate the car is being held stationary deliberately.[/quote
This may be the case but it's a pity that they think most normally sighted people can't recognise when a car's stationary. We're being dumbed down whilst they have a lighting arms war.
This may be the case but it's a pity that they think most normally sighted people can't recognise when a car's stationary. We're being dumbed down whilst they have a lighting arms war.
That comes back to my "Top Trumps" comment before about drivers aids in general.
Manufacturers are adding automatic headlights, parking sensors, reverse cameras, self parking and a myriad of other nonsense because...
...wait for it...
They think their customers are a bunch of thickies who can't drive their products themselves.
So automated parking brakes that leave the brake lights on are nothing more than another example of this.
Manufacturers are adding automatic headlights, parking sensors, reverse cameras, self parking and a myriad of other nonsense because...
...wait for it...
They think their customers are a bunch of thickies who can't drive their products themselves.
So automated parking brakes that leave the brake lights on are nothing more than another example of this.
vonhosen said:
Who's defining the best practice?
Most vehicle manufacturing isn't in this country.
That was the point- automated systems have potential to and are contradicting various bits of wisdom. Most vehicle manufacturing isn't in this country.
This thread is an example: if you use the car's auto-handbrake system, and it leaves the brake lights on, you're creating upset in at least some road craft enthusiasts' corners.
janesmith1950 said:
vonhosen said:
Who's defining the best practice?
Most vehicle manufacturing isn't in this country.
That was the point- automated systems have potential to and are contradicting various bits of wisdom. Most vehicle manufacturing isn't in this country.
This thread is an example: if you use the car's auto-handbrake system, and it leaves the brake lights on, you're creating upset in at least some road craft enthusiasts' corners.
These forums seem to be populated by mostly UK drivers. Most vehicle manufacturing is from outside the UK.
They (manufacturers) won't be concerning themselves much with wisdoms of niche groups in the UK. If they do think about any perceived wisdoms they'll likely consider the large groups within their home/largest markets.
Should have know it was the lazy ass'd Americans fault. 
Good points guys. Drivers aids are for people who want to get from A to B with the least enthusiasm possible. Driving enthusiasts will tend to reject this premise.
It's the nature of the world we live in. Tomato, tom-art-oh. Drivers car, drivers aids. We're all using the same tarmac, I'll make a concerted effort to be less critical.
Good points guys. Drivers aids are for people who want to get from A to B with the least enthusiasm possible. Driving enthusiasts will tend to reject this premise.
It's the nature of the world we live in. Tomato, tom-art-oh. Drivers car, drivers aids. We're all using the same tarmac, I'll make a concerted effort to be less critical.
Liquid Knight said:
That comes back to my "Top Trumps" comment before about drivers aids in general.
Manufacturers are adding automatic headlights, parking sensors, reverse cameras, self parking and a myriad of other nonsense because...
...wait for it...
They think their customers are a bunch of thickies who can't drive their products themselves.
So automated parking brakes that leave the brake lights on are nothing more than another example of this.
And they’re right those things are most definitely not nonsense and will contribute to fewer parking shunts, fewer morons running into the back of stationary cars, fewer low speed accidents where automatic emergency braking would have prevented them etc etcManufacturers are adding automatic headlights, parking sensors, reverse cameras, self parking and a myriad of other nonsense because...
...wait for it...
They think their customers are a bunch of thickies who can't drive their products themselves.
So automated parking brakes that leave the brake lights on are nothing more than another example of this.
The biggest cause of accidents is the human behind the wheel so automation is inevitable and beneficial from a safety perspective.
Off Topic A Bit:
Even brake lights aren't enough for some people. Two incidents this year showed me how little some people concentrate on their driving. One occasion was on a country road where two cars approaching from behind found my car stationary, a metre out from the verge with the brake lights on. Without pausing they overtook. That was when they found a combination of an S bend over a hump back bridge just ahead of them with an articulated lorry on it was going to need a bit of time. What did they think I was doing? I'd stopped to admire the view? Read the road. Look ahead. Anticipate.
The second occasion was similar. It was in town in the evening and I was in the only vehicle waiting at a set of temporary lights with my handbrake on, the car in neutral and my foot on the brake to show any approaching cars that I was stationary. What would you have thought was happening? Perhaps the roadworks ahead of me might have given it away. Or the 400 yards of warnings of the roadworks and single file traffic. Two lads in a car went straight past me, wrong side of the road and were well into the roadworks facing oncoming traffic before the penny dropped. Then they reversed. No option really. They reversed to be out of the way but in front of me. The driver wasn't going to give up his hard won place in the queue. The queue of two. Too much pride at stake I suppose. Eejit.
Even brake lights aren't enough for some people. Two incidents this year showed me how little some people concentrate on their driving. One occasion was on a country road where two cars approaching from behind found my car stationary, a metre out from the verge with the brake lights on. Without pausing they overtook. That was when they found a combination of an S bend over a hump back bridge just ahead of them with an articulated lorry on it was going to need a bit of time. What did they think I was doing? I'd stopped to admire the view? Read the road. Look ahead. Anticipate.
The second occasion was similar. It was in town in the evening and I was in the only vehicle waiting at a set of temporary lights with my handbrake on, the car in neutral and my foot on the brake to show any approaching cars that I was stationary. What would you have thought was happening? Perhaps the roadworks ahead of me might have given it away. Or the 400 yards of warnings of the roadworks and single file traffic. Two lads in a car went straight past me, wrong side of the road and were well into the roadworks facing oncoming traffic before the penny dropped. Then they reversed. No option really. They reversed to be out of the way but in front of me. The driver wasn't going to give up his hard won place in the queue. The queue of two. Too much pride at stake I suppose. Eejit.
djc206 said:
Liquid Knight said:
That comes back to my "Top Trumps" comment before about drivers aids in general.
Manufacturers are adding automatic headlights, parking sensors, reverse cameras, self parking and a myriad of other nonsense because...
...wait for it...
They think their customers are a bunch of thickies who can't drive their products themselves.
So automated parking brakes that leave the brake lights on are nothing more than another example of this.
And they’re right those things are most definitely not nonsense and will contribute to fewer parking shunts, fewer morons running into the back of stationary cars, fewer low speed accidents where automatic emergency braking would have prevented them etc etcManufacturers are adding automatic headlights, parking sensors, reverse cameras, self parking and a myriad of other nonsense because...
...wait for it...
They think their customers are a bunch of thickies who can't drive their products themselves.
So automated parking brakes that leave the brake lights on are nothing more than another example of this.
The biggest cause of accidents is the human behind the wheel so automation is inevitable and beneficial from a safety perspective.
Liquid Knight said:
Bringing us neatly back to drivers aids being aimed at full automation instead of to aid drivers. Taking human error out of the equation is a polite way of saying manufacturers think their customers are thick but it amounts to same thing.
Not necessarily thick, although most are so they are right, just human. Humans make mistakes, most accidents are caused by humans making mistakes, machines especially when linked together don’t make mistakes like we do. As much as I’m not keen on it taking the driving task away from the human is going to make our roads a hell of a lot safer.Certain aids are just aids too. Things like reverse cameras, I can’t see through the back of my car, the camera gives me that ability, it doesn’t automate any task it just offers me a full wide angled view of what is behind me, that sort of thing can only be considered good surely?
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