Just switched to an 8speed Auto, feel like I need training

[Flumpo]

bulldong said:

Flumpo said:

bulldong said:

What’s the “advance driving holier than thou” line on engine braking in snow? I drive a lot when there is snow on the road, and tend to use engine braking as much as possible before using the brakes. Especially going down hill. It works a lot better and you have a lot more control.

Also for those saying that discs and pads are “cheap consumables”, a set of discs and pads for my car is €1500 fitted.

Most ridiculous post of the day award...

Further research suggests engine braking best way to slow car in snow.

Re: the consumables aspect which I guess is what you’re calling ridiculous... I guess my point is that if you’re mechanically too insensitive to not do damage to the car when you’re engine braking, you’re probably going to do it damage anyway. I may also understand the advanced driving idea of not engine braking on something old with a gearbox made of wood, but on a modern car, nah. I’ll keep using my engine and gearbox to brake and enjoy more kms from a set of pads thanks.

Nope, my point was that the advice being discussed was clearly for standard uk spec cars in uk weather conditions.

[waremark]

bulldong said:

What’s the “advance driving holier than thou” line on engine braking in snow? I drive a lot when there is snow on the road, and tend to use engine braking as much as possible before using the brakes. Especially going down hill. It works a lot better and you have a lot more control.

Also for those saying that discs and pads are “cheap consumables”, a set of discs and pads for my car is €1500 fitted.

So if engine braking works on 2 wheels and the foot brake works on 4 - and can be modulated to make the most of the available grip - why does engine braking work best in low grip and why or how do you have more control?

[66mpg]

The key phrase here is “can be modulated.” Some drivers may find it difficult to exercise fine control of the brake pedal, being more used to seeking maximum retardation from it. On some vehicles it may be difficult to apply the brakes gently without locking up on low grip surfaces: I drove a Toyota Hilux that readily locked up at the back, a problem remedied by new drums.

Just lifting off the throttle may be easier but I take the point that you are then only retarding two wheels.

Practice fine control of the brake pedal, get used to how your vehicle responds, under more favourable conditions so that you are ready for when the weather deteriorates.

[300bhp/ton]

bulldong said:

What’s the “advance driving holier than thou” line on engine braking in snow? I drive a lot when there is snow on the road, and tend to use engine braking as much as possible before using the brakes. Especially going down hill. It works a lot better and you have a lot more control.

Also for those saying that discs and pads are “cheap consumables”, a set of discs and pads for my car is €1500 fitted.

I don’t know what an ADI would say. But IMO engine raking, especially in slippery conditions is a very sensible thing. And works even better with 4wd cars than 2wd.

I see driving in snow more similar to driving off road, ie slippery conditions. And using the engine for braking over the brake pedal is certainly the way to go.

[chris116]

jamieandthemagic said:

So I’m a manual head.
My wife has a 2010 xc60 with horrid slushbox auto.

My weekend cars are both manual Alfa’s, that love to be driven up n down the gears (1989 Alfa 75 V6, 1971 Alfa GT1300Junior)

I’ve just been given for a company car (not really my choice), an F31 BMW 320d Msport Auto.
It’s an 8 speed with flappy paddles.
Prior to this I’ve had C220d manuals for 10 years.

Now I’m old school, and used to using the gears to enable engine braking, to help slow the car, and generally drive using engine braking as a core part of daily driving.

This new car has very little engine braking ability, even when I put it down two gears. I hate relying on just the brakes to slow and drive a car.

But this new car, makes me feel like I need some further driver training to get used to this type of car. Had it 3 months. Now I know a BMW is meant to be a better driver based car than the Merc. But comparing an 8 speed auto 320d with a C220d 6spd manual....... I had more fun and smoother driving in the manual.

Any classes out there for getting around this change ?

Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 16th December 19:07

Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 16th December 19:09

Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 16th December 19:15

In all of the BMW's I've have had with automatic gearboxes I've always preferred braking with them in sport mode. You seem to get a bit more engine braking this way.

This was with the 6 speed / early 8 speed autos so not sure if the current ones are similar.

[Mabbs9]

300bhp/ton said:

Has any gearbox ever worn out due to engine braking? Not sure any clutch will have either.

I'm with you on this. I've been driving 25yrs and never replaced a gearbox. I'm light on brakes too, because the gearbox happily takes the strain.

[xjay1337]

Mabbs9 said:

300bhp/ton said:

Has any gearbox ever worn out due to engine braking? Not sure any clutch will have either.

I'm with you on this. I've been driving 25yrs and never replaced a gearbox. I'm light on brakes too, because the gearbox happily takes the strain.

Well because the clutch only wears when it's "slipping"

So if you're doing 50mph in 5th/6th and then change down to 3rd, if you don't blip the throttle then the clutch will drag and this will increase clutch wear. Although how much is anyones guess.

But if your clutch is fully engaged then there is no extra wear on the clutch or gearbox when engine braking.

[anonymous-user]

waremark said:

bulldong said:

What’s the “advance driving holier than thou” line on engine braking in snow? I drive a lot when there is snow on the road, and tend to use engine braking as much as possible before using the brakes. Especially going down hill. It works a lot better and you have a lot more control.

Also for those saying that discs and pads are “cheap consumables”, a set of discs and pads for my car is €1500 fitted.

So if engine braking works on 2 wheels and the foot brake works on 4 - and can be modulated to make the most of the available grip - why does engine braking work best in low grip and why or how do you have more control?

Change in any forces or inputs on the car can cause a skid. Braking makes it easier for your car to lose traction and start sliding, even with the most modern braking system. Engine braking seems a more subtle force and less likely to cause a skid.

Not a technical answer, but even with abs, in heavy snow I avoid using the brakes where possible.

[BertBert]

I'll go against the grain. Brakes are designed to stop the vehicle especially in modern cars, think ABS. Having the engine braking lock up the front wheels in a front wheel drive car, downhill in the snow isn't terribly clever.
Bert

[xjay1337]

BertBert said:

I'll go against the grain. Brakes are designed to stop the vehicle especially in modern cars, think ABS. Having the engine braking lock up the front wheels in a front wheel drive car, downhill in the snow isn't terribly clever.
Bert

That wouldn't ever happen unless you were being an idiot.

IE if you were going down a hill in 2nd gear at approx 10mph without an throttle it will not magically start locking up

[anonymous-user]

xjay1337 said:

That wouldn't ever happen unless you were being an idiot.

IE if you were going down a hill in 2nd gear at approx 10mph without an throttle it will not magically start locking up

Unlikely, agreed. Change down clunkily from 3rd into moderate revs in 2nd in a downhill slope however...

The average driver would be better served by leaving the gear as is and using the brakes.

[xjay1337]

janesmith1950 said:

xjay1337 said:

That wouldn't ever happen unless you were being an idiot.

IE if you were going down a hill in 2nd gear at approx 10mph without an throttle it will not magically start locking up

Unlikely, agreed. Change down clunkily from 3rd into moderate revs in 2nd in a downhill slope however...

The average driver would be better served by leaving the gear as is and using the brakes.

Yes

Very true.

Hence why I said it would be idiotic....

[BertBert]

xjay1337 said:

That wouldn't ever happen unless you were being an idiot.

IE if you were going down a hill in 2nd gear at approx 10mph without an throttle it will not magically start locking up

What rubbish. Did I say suddenly or magically? If you need to brake, the brakes do it best. If you try and use 2 wheel braking when 4 is available, how can it be better?

[RobM77]

I've recently changed to a car that has less engine braking than my last, and find that it just requires planning further ahead, which is always a good thing. Inevitably though, you'll just find yourself using the brakes more, so you'll become used to making very subtle applications, which is also a good thing to get better at, particularly if you drive on track or care about dynamics (in which situations brakes aren't just used to slow the car). I do realise though that with every generation, BMW succumb to fashion and makes their cars' brakes more sensitive, which makes gentle brake applications increasingly hard, and even hazardous...

[SOL111]

rix said:

I’m in a similar position, I have had very high level ‘advanced’ training in the past, including with some autos but have pretty much exclusively driven manuals since. I have fairly recently gone to an auto m240i and really don’t feel as proficient driving it as I did with manuals. Main issue for me is too many gear choices so that gear selection (in manual mode) isn’t as intuitive, and no proper means of block changing which the ‘brakes to slow’ practice generally requires. Even in manual mode the auto box will obviously change itself down when braking, which means that you don’t then ‘select’ a gear to accelerate, or if you do it’s far less intuitive!

Upshot is that: a) I generally leave it in auto and b) I should have hung out for a manual!

I'm not advanced by any means but agree with you about the M240. I passed my IAM in an M140 and even before embarking on the course took me a long time to adjust to the auto. Paddle shifting is simplicity itself but judging when to change down for a corner not so. Like you say, it automatically downshifts so can get caught out at a bend if you brake and then drop below 1krpm. As a result you can shift manually but subsequently drop down two gears or let the auto do it and face not being in the correct gear for exit (if it doesn't auto shift as anticipated).

Personally I'd persevere as it's worth sticking with manual mode. For me, as the ZF changes so quickly, you can beat the ECU and change down just as you're coming off the brakes. Even dropping two can be done quickly, although I'd agree that it's not the same as block changing a manual box.

I've got rid of mine now and don't think I ever managed to master the auto but it was just so good for my commute that I put up with it. I wonder if the DCT is better in this respect.

[RobM77]

SOL111 said:

For me, as the ZF changes so quickly, you can beat the ECU and change down just as you're coming off the brakes.

That's interesting. Obviously its not ideal to be changing gear during turn in, so I wondered if there was a reason you need to drive the auto like that? If you're braking and want to, for example, go from 3k rpm in 4th gear to 4k rpm in 3rd during braking, so that you arrive at turn in a short time later at 3,500rpm in 3rd, can you do that with the ZF or will it block you, forcing you to do it later when the revs are lower?

The reason for me asking is that I'm toying with the idea of changing from a 3 series to a 5 series for my next car, and the main negative factor is the lack of manual gearboxes in them (I tow regularly, so ideally want more power than the 520d offers). My commute is almost entirely bumpy and twisty B and A roads.

[anonymous-user]

Unless there's something different in other BMW implementations, you can be in manual mode and have full control.

[littleredrooster]

waremark said:

bulldong said:

What’s the “advance driving holier than thou” line on engine braking in snow? I drive a lot when there is snow on the road, and tend to use engine braking as much as possible before using the brakes. Especially going down hill. It works a lot better and you have a lot more control.

Also for those saying that discs and pads are “cheap consumables”, a set of discs and pads for my car is €1500 fitted.

So if engine braking works on 2 wheels and the foot brake works on 4 - and can be modulated to make the most of the available grip - why does engine braking work best in low grip and why or how do you have more control?

Technically, it only works on ONE wheel if it is a standard differential as fitted to 99% of cars on the road. Makes the argument for engine braking even more difficult to justify; how can only braking one wheel ever be better than four?

Reminds me of the story of Paddy Hopkirk on the Monte Carlo rally, early '60s, when going down a long descent at a significant rate of knots, his co-driver pointed out that the speedo was only reading 15mph...

[RobM77]

janesmith1950 said:

Unless there's something different in other BMW implementations, you can be in manual mode and have full control.

Thanks. I think a test drive is the best way forward. Even in an ideal world (such as Waremark's E92 M3 DCT, which he kindly let me drive and I very much liked it), I think I would still miss the interaction of a manual; but if I need the space for family holidays and days out, I may have to put up with an auto!

[Sheepshanks]

janesmith1950 said:

The latest automatics with 'coast' mode can be quite hard work. Your normal acceleration sense on the motorway needs recalibrating as the car just keeps ploughing on. My wife's V90 feels like a container ship as you realise you're going to have to disappoint yourself and tap the brake pedal, after all.

Can you turn the coast mode off? On wife's DSG Tiguan it's off by default but can be set to on. It get disabled when the brake pedal is touched. Reading Tiguan forums where it's discussed no one uses it.

Her car engine brakes, downshifting at the same time, pretty firmly - I rarely need to use the brakes when I drive it. She drives in a completely binary fashion, she either accelerating or braking. Her car always has very shiny brake discs. I had to change mine recently as they went rusty.