Why do so few people ‘use all of the road’?
Discussion
It's a bit tiresome that this is the AD forum yet it's full of uninformed people spouting nonsense which others may accept as true. I guess this is the nature of the internet but maybe some should state their experience / qualifications before posting on here...? Views on that (accepting I have gone off piste, could be another thread....)
Getting back to this:
RE: the "wrong side of the road". As another poster has pointed out there is no such thing. Let's use an example: You are approaching a parked vehicle in an urban setting. Do you stick to your perceived "correct side of the road" and presumably either hit it or stop and remain there until it moves, or do you transgress and dare to visit the "wrong" side?
It is true that in the UK we drive on the left, as we all (hopefully) know. This does not mean that in certain situations, in particular on country roads and certainly when overtaking, that it is illegal/dangerous/rude etc to use any part of the carriageway you are travelling on. It can be beneficial and safer to use part or all of the offside lane in some situations as I and others have already outlined. There is an issue of third party perception which needs to be kept in mind depending on the circumstances; however, this is just one part of driver improvement.
I would not use the term "cutting corners" as a) this is rarely the reason for optimal positioning during road driving, and b) it sounds like you are doing something wrong just by the phrase alone. The approaches to completely open bends, which are relatively uncommon, and partially or completely unsighted bends are all very different and require skill and training.
Yes, the default taught to a novice driver is to stick to the left lane on single carriageway roads unless passing obstacles or very slow moving traffic. This is because a novice is just that and they need to develop their skills in a stepwise fashion.
Getting back to this:
RE: the "wrong side of the road". As another poster has pointed out there is no such thing. Let's use an example: You are approaching a parked vehicle in an urban setting. Do you stick to your perceived "correct side of the road" and presumably either hit it or stop and remain there until it moves, or do you transgress and dare to visit the "wrong" side?
It is true that in the UK we drive on the left, as we all (hopefully) know. This does not mean that in certain situations, in particular on country roads and certainly when overtaking, that it is illegal/dangerous/rude etc to use any part of the carriageway you are travelling on. It can be beneficial and safer to use part or all of the offside lane in some situations as I and others have already outlined. There is an issue of third party perception which needs to be kept in mind depending on the circumstances; however, this is just one part of driver improvement.
I would not use the term "cutting corners" as a) this is rarely the reason for optimal positioning during road driving, and b) it sounds like you are doing something wrong just by the phrase alone. The approaches to completely open bends, which are relatively uncommon, and partially or completely unsighted bends are all very different and require skill and training.
Yes, the default taught to a novice driver is to stick to the left lane on single carriageway roads unless passing obstacles or very slow moving traffic. This is because a novice is just that and they need to develop their skills in a stepwise fashion.
Trouble is most of us are not advanced drivers, many can barely drive, so telling them they can drive on the other side of the road if it is clear in order to improve their line of sight and hold their speed is a recipe for disaster. That should be left to those that are properly trained to do so.
You only need to read PH to understand the generally held belief about the driving standards demonstrated by many in this country, and that's those who manage to drive badly on the "right" side of the road.
I am only expressing my opinion on the issue raised, the fact that my view is different to many is a not a bad thing and hopefully promotes open debate. It would be a shame to talk people down and try to shut out their opinion just because you don't agree.
You only need to read PH to understand the generally held belief about the driving standards demonstrated by many in this country, and that's those who manage to drive badly on the "right" side of the road.
I am only expressing my opinion on the issue raised, the fact that my view is different to many is a not a bad thing and hopefully promotes open debate. It would be a shame to talk people down and try to shut out their opinion just because you don't agree.
Monkeylegend said:
Trouble is most of us are not advanced drivers, many can barely drive, so telling them they can drive on the other side of the road if it is clear in order to improve their line of sight and hold their speed is a recipe for disaster. That should be left to those that are properly trained to do so.
You only need to read PH to understand the generally held belief about the driving standards demonstrated by many in this country, and that's those who manage to drive badly on the "right" side of the road.
I am only expressing my opinion on the issue raised, the fact that my view is different to many is a not a bad thing and hopefully promotes open debate. It would be a shame to talk people down and try to shut out their opinion just because you don't agree.
Hi,You only need to read PH to understand the generally held belief about the driving standards demonstrated by many in this country, and that's those who manage to drive badly on the "right" side of the road.
I am only expressing my opinion on the issue raised, the fact that my view is different to many is a not a bad thing and hopefully promotes open debate. It would be a shame to talk people down and try to shut out their opinion just because you don't agree.
Thanks for the very reasonable reply and I completely agree with your first paragraph. What I take an issue with is the fact this is supposed to be the advanced driving forum and perhaps it should be closed, with a gatekeeper, to avoid the concerns you have about misapplication of complex issues by those who are not invested/interested/capable. Debate is good, but it is well established that appropriate use of the carriageway, including using both lanes, is part of skilled road driving - both by the police and by civilian drivers. I don't consider that a matter of personal opinion. However, I think what you are not unreasonably trying to convey is that we should be cautious not to promote this out of context and/or to the wrong audience.
SOL111 said:
Monkeylegend said:
That's good then, as long as you feel comfortable explaining to the BiB that you know best you should be ok 
Lol I realise you're being facetious but it's got nothing to do with knowing better. Just driving in a manner that is consistent with the training received.The point I was attempting to make is that the police would probably take a dim view of somebody who was driving in a manner posted in the opening post irrespective of the training they had received.
DoubleD said:
You dont need extra training, you just need some common sense.
I'm not going to get into the merits of driver training (although strange how more folks will train for tennis, skiing, gym work with coaches etc but not for a complex task like driving) but how common is common sense...? DocSteve said:
I would not use the term "cutting corners" as a) this is rarely the reason for optimal positioning during road driving, and b) it sounds like you are doing something wrong just by the phrase alone. The approaches to completely open bends, which are relatively uncommon, and partially or completely unsighted bends are all very different and require skill and training.
Yes, perhaps the term "cutting corners" has negative connotations but is a term I've heard used by an instructor (police oddly enough) hence my repeating but I'd agree generally.It was actually advised when I was out driving my normal commute to work at the time. Bedford Road, left into Hexton Road as shown in the link.
https://goo.gl/maps/zAjhUQ2TEko
There's actually very good visibility as you enter the junction and pass the island on the right. In this instance I was told specifically to cut the corner and stay as straight as possible. Otherwise the turn is uncecessarily tight, if there is no oncomming and would impede progress.
Although I concede that there are not many instances where I would make such a manoevre so agree about the rarity. I just thought I'd provide context for usage.
DocSteve said:
DoubleD said:
You dont need extra training, you just need some common sense.
I'm not going to get into the merits of driver training (although strange how more folks will train for tennis, skiing, gym work with coaches etc but not for a complex task like driving) but how common is common sense...? But this being PH, the norm is to say that most dont have any, but obviously I do.
DocSteve said:
Monkeylegend said:
Trouble is most of us are not advanced drivers, many can barely drive, so telling them they can drive on the other side of the road if it is clear in order to improve their line of sight and hold their speed is a recipe for disaster. That should be left to those that are properly trained to do so.
You only need to read PH to understand the generally held belief about the driving standards demonstrated by many in this country, and that's those who manage to drive badly on the "right" side of the road.
I am only expressing my opinion on the issue raised, the fact that my view is different to many is a not a bad thing and hopefully promotes open debate. It would be a shame to talk people down and try to shut out their opinion just because you don't agree.
Hi,You only need to read PH to understand the generally held belief about the driving standards demonstrated by many in this country, and that's those who manage to drive badly on the "right" side of the road.
I am only expressing my opinion on the issue raised, the fact that my view is different to many is a not a bad thing and hopefully promotes open debate. It would be a shame to talk people down and try to shut out their opinion just because you don't agree.
Thanks for the very reasonable reply and I completely agree with your first paragraph. What I take an issue with is the fact this is supposed to be the advanced driving forum and perhaps it should be closed, with a gatekeeper, to avoid the concerns you have about misapplication of complex issues by those who are not invested/interested/capable. Debate is good, but it is well established that appropriate use of the carriageway, including using both lanes, is part of skilled road driving - both by the police and by civilian drivers. I don't consider that a matter of personal opinion. However, I think what you are not unreasonably trying to convey is that we should be cautious not to promote this out of context and/or to the wrong audience.
Monkeylegend said:
Yes, sorry I shouldn't have said it in such a way.
The point I was attempting to make is that the police would probably take a dim view of somebody who was driving in a manner posted in the opening post irrespective of the training they had received.
Lol. Perhaps if you were using 'all' of the road The point I was attempting to make is that the police would probably take a dim view of somebody who was driving in a manner posted in the opening post irrespective of the training they had received.
But otherwise I have no idea what police would look for. I'd like to think they'd be assessing the driving style and could recognise an advanced driver over a regular but then I'm not sure if all traffic police have been trained to the highest level.
Either way I'm happy to take the risk and explain myself if the need arises. But then I'm not talking about me clipping the opposite kerb when I'm out, just using a bit more of the road where I feel it's helpful/feasible.
SOL111 said:
Lol. Perhaps if you were using 'all' of the road
That was the premise of the thread title and opening post, hence my reason for getting involved.We all maybe use the "racing line" on occasions but normally it will generally be within the confines of our lane which in itself is no issue, but to be completely on the other side of the road as a regular driving habit as suggested by the OP is fraught with danger in my opinion, when so many people of differing skill levels are using the same bit of tarmac, but going in the opposite direction.
People are constantly calling for ongoing driving tests/ assessments for the over 70's, can you imagine what they would do if they were faced by somebody coming round a corner on their side of the road, which would happen, if it was a method of driving many adopted.
We exist in a general state of order, so we usually know what to expect when we leave our front doors, I think its best we keep it that way as much as we can
Monkeylegend said:
That was the premise of the thread title and opening post, hence my reason for getting involved.
We all maybe use the "racing line" on occasions but normally it will generally be within the confines of our lane which in itself is no issue, but to be completely on the other side of the road as a regular driving habit as suggested by the OP is fraught with danger in my opinion, when so many people of differing skill levels are using the same bit of tarmac, but going in the opposite direction.
People are constantly calling for ongoing driving tests/ assessments for the over 70's, can you imagine what they would do if they were faced by somebody coming round a corner on their side of the road, which would happen, if it was a method of driving many adopted.
We exist in a general state of order, so we usually know what to expect when we leave our front doors, I think its best we keep it that way as much as we can
Fair enough. I think the claimed use of 'all' of the road is a bit excessive but I would have to say that I'm a regular when it comes to using 'more' of the road. I wouldn't sugges that everyone does it but this is an AD forum so I'm guessing that most AD's who have done some training will also do the same/similar depending on their preference and interpretation of AD.We all maybe use the "racing line" on occasions but normally it will generally be within the confines of our lane which in itself is no issue, but to be completely on the other side of the road as a regular driving habit as suggested by the OP is fraught with danger in my opinion, when so many people of differing skill levels are using the same bit of tarmac, but going in the opposite direction.
People are constantly calling for ongoing driving tests/ assessments for the over 70's, can you imagine what they would do if they were faced by somebody coming round a corner on their side of the road, which would happen, if it was a method of driving many adopted.
We exist in a general state of order, so we usually know what to expect when we leave our front doors, I think its best we keep it that way as much as we can
IMHO the crux for me is how busy the roads are. If there's a hint that my use of the other lane may cause confusion or annoyance etc. then I won't do it. However, to say there are never opportunities would be wrong, given I commute to work at 6am. My driving is totally different at the start of the day, compared to rush hour coming home.
Monkeylegend said:
That was the premise of the thread title and opening post, hence my reason for getting involved.
We all maybe use the "racing line" on occasions but normally it will generally be within the confines of our lane which in itself is no issue, but to be completely on the other side of the road as a regular driving habit as suggested by the OP is fraught with danger in my opinion, when so many people of differing skill levels are using the same bit of tarmac, but going in the opposite direction.
People are constantly calling for ongoing driving tests/ assessments for the over 70's, can you imagine what they would do if they were faced by somebody coming round a corner on their side of the road, which would happen, if it was a method of driving many adopted.
We exist in a general state of order, so we usually know what to expect when we leave our front doors, I think its best we keep it that way as much as we can
let us not confuse the racing line with using all of the road...We all maybe use the "racing line" on occasions but normally it will generally be within the confines of our lane which in itself is no issue, but to be completely on the other side of the road as a regular driving habit as suggested by the OP is fraught with danger in my opinion, when so many people of differing skill levels are using the same bit of tarmac, but going in the opposite direction.
People are constantly calling for ongoing driving tests/ assessments for the over 70's, can you imagine what they would do if they were faced by somebody coming round a corner on their side of the road, which would happen, if it was a method of driving many adopted.
We exist in a general state of order, so we usually know what to expect when we leave our front doors, I think its best we keep it that way as much as we can
- racing line is about optimising balance / speed / etc. and has little directly to do with safety...
- using all of the road is about optimising vision to increase safety... that increase can be used either to up your pace without adding risk, or to maximise the safety margin, depending on your proclivity for risk / circumstances / etc.
two very different things...
there are also deep flaws in your logic...
- if there are other people using the same tarmac but going in the other direction, then you wouldn’t be off-siding
- no-one over 70 is going to come around a corner to find mrs biggins barelling down at them on their side of the road...
you off-side simply to extend vision, which gives you the ability to see further ahead, and more time to spot other drivers... this means that you will be back on your own side of the road before the opposing traffic have even noticed that you exist...
just ask yourself the question - single lane NSL with no hazards and 10 miles clear view and no other traffic - does it matter which side of the road you are on? clearly not....
now - hairpin bends with solid hedging - clearly you are constantly on your own side...
it doesn’t take too much effort to work out that roads and bends come in all flavours in-between and that there are some where remaining on your side makes sense, and others where off-siding can increase view - in some cases, minimally (so don’t bother), in others, providing a dramatic improvement in sight-lines...
you say that you are not an advanced driver, yet seem convinced that your rigorous view is correct - others posting on here are, have had a lot of coaching and understand that learning more about driving means that you learn to adapt / make intelligent decisions continually as you drive - what is appropriate for one corner doesn’t work for the next / what works for this corner today, may not tomorrow in the rain and rush-hour...
one of the biggest messages in this forum should be that thinking about how you are driving, and adapting to the continually changing setting is a vital part of advanced driving... so, drive within the law, drive safely and maximise your observation etc... it is perfectly legal to offside appropriately, so let’s not allow those who don’t understand it to define what is or isn’t allowed based on their lack of comprehension... does the law allow it? yes. is it safe? in some circumstances yes. does it help increase safety? in some circumstances, yes. - so where each of those can be answered yes, feel free...
SOL111 said:
Given I've just told you a police instructor was happy to advise on this, then yes, I have no issues driving like this.
As I said, context is everything so obviously not when the roads are full of traffic.
If a police officer felt the need to pull me over I'd be happy to discuss and explain my pov, along with my training.
Making progress is making progress. It has nothing to do with pursuit driving.
...but making progress is not making progress if you're having to stop and have a chat with a traffic officer for 20mins to explain why you consider yourself to be in the right, whilst they also needlessly run quick background checks on your tax, insurance, vehicle ownership, driving licence, tyres and probably breathalyse you for being 'all over the road'.As I said, context is everything so obviously not when the roads are full of traffic.
If a police officer felt the need to pull me over I'd be happy to discuss and explain my pov, along with my training.
Making progress is making progress. It has nothing to do with pursuit driving.
As mentioned before - why on earth would you even consider it?
mrfunex said:
...but making progress is not making progress if you're having to stop and have a chat with a traffic officer for 20mins to explain why you consider yourself to be in the right, whilst they also needlessly run quick background checks on your tax, insurance, vehicle ownership, driving licence, tyres and probably breathalyse you for being 'all over the road'.
As mentioned before - why on earth would you even consider it?
I did it with a fully marked trafpol behind me last week. He did what I did, and didn’t pull me over, have a word, do checks, or anything else. The conditions were good, visibility was good, I wasn’t speeding, I was driving to the conditions, they weren’t bothered.As mentioned before - why on earth would you even consider it?
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