Timing gear changes before corners
Discussion
A couple of thoughts... and prefaced by the fact that I've never sat alongside you, so this might all be b
ks.
1) In general I find that this sort of issue is created by a single cause: not braking firmly enough. Forget about heel and toe for now because it'll only be a bandage for not getting all the approach stuff right. So, start braking at the point you'd normally brake but increase the pressure you're using. That's going to create a bubble of time and distance right at the end of the phase for you to get the gear change done. And for entry speed, if it feels a little too slow then you're just about doing it right. If your control movements look and feel like Tiff Needell on speed, then it's almost certainly wrong.
Anyone who has had the misfortune to be coached by me will know just how much pressure I expect people to use on the brake, to the point where I've threatened to push their knee downwards. It's not full on e-stop stampage, but enough that you've got a very firm pedal. If you've got a firm pedal then it's easy to develop heel and toe later.
Oh, and preface, in your mind, any control input with 'start to', especially start to brake and start to come out of the brakes. The latter will create just a little more time and distance to do the downchange without thrashing at it because you extend the braking just that little bit more.
2) You only stop braking when you know you're going to get around the corner you've been presented with. There is no shame in continuing to brake up to the point where the corner starts to run out. In fact, if you do that then you'll look like a driving god for trail braking perfectly. Others have mentioned limit point analysis, which sounds brilliant in theory and the universal panacea for driving decisions as to speed, but it's only a part, and not as big a one as others believe. Just ask yourself 'what's wrong with this picture?' Corners don't magically tighten up, there's always some evidence visible for you to take suitable action early enough.
Unfortunately observation skills can't be taught but they can be learnt. It's not easy though.
ks.1) In general I find that this sort of issue is created by a single cause: not braking firmly enough. Forget about heel and toe for now because it'll only be a bandage for not getting all the approach stuff right. So, start braking at the point you'd normally brake but increase the pressure you're using. That's going to create a bubble of time and distance right at the end of the phase for you to get the gear change done. And for entry speed, if it feels a little too slow then you're just about doing it right. If your control movements look and feel like Tiff Needell on speed, then it's almost certainly wrong.
Anyone who has had the misfortune to be coached by me will know just how much pressure I expect people to use on the brake, to the point where I've threatened to push their knee downwards. It's not full on e-stop stampage, but enough that you've got a very firm pedal. If you've got a firm pedal then it's easy to develop heel and toe later.
Oh, and preface, in your mind, any control input with 'start to', especially start to brake and start to come out of the brakes. The latter will create just a little more time and distance to do the downchange without thrashing at it because you extend the braking just that little bit more.
2) You only stop braking when you know you're going to get around the corner you've been presented with. There is no shame in continuing to brake up to the point where the corner starts to run out. In fact, if you do that then you'll look like a driving god for trail braking perfectly. Others have mentioned limit point analysis, which sounds brilliant in theory and the universal panacea for driving decisions as to speed, but it's only a part, and not as big a one as others believe. Just ask yourself 'what's wrong with this picture?' Corners don't magically tighten up, there's always some evidence visible for you to take suitable action early enough.
Unfortunately observation skills can't be taught but they can be learnt. It's not easy though.
Chris32345 said:
No not unless your doing track/circuit driving
It's an absolutely stupid thing that is in no way needed on the road
I guarantee they you don’t know how to heel and toe properly.It's an absolutely stupid thing that is in no way needed on the road
May I suggest you learn how to do it. If nothing else it will give you something to do instead of wearing your clutch out on the approach to a corner..😂😂
Crippo said:
Chris32345 said:
NDNDNDND said:
Learn to heel n' toe.
No not unless your doing track/circuit drivingIt's an absolutely stupid thing that is in no way needed on the road
For OP....another way to approach your corner at speed and to get your braking done in time is to judge "is the bend still rushing towards me?" If it is then you need to slow more.....if it is "holding" you are at the correct speed.......hold the gas peddle on ( after gear change) so it is "pulling" around with the weight even..... as it opens you can then get the gas on big time
like already said "slow in, fast out, fast in st out !"
avoiding the gear change/brake overlap means you have also timed it well, and having both hands on the wheel when turning allows better steering control
like already said "slow in, fast out, fast in s
t out !"avoiding the gear change/brake overlap means you have also timed it well, and having both hands on the wheel when turning allows better steering control
dvenman said:
Chris32345 said:
NDNDNDND said:
Learn to heel n' toe.
No not unless your doing track/circuit drivingIt's an absolutely stupid thing that is in no way needed on the road
If you come across this species run... run away..
I have only read the last few contributions, so apologies if inappropriate, but I did wonder when StressedDave told us more than once to brake much harder, whether he was describing the technique on the approach to Paddock Hill Bend. Traffic density on UK roads now is so great compared to years ago, that high speed approaches to bends are no longer very sensible or even possible, particularly I would have thought, for IAM members (not a member).
I usually use a 3.2 litre (torque converter) car on the road, so 'heel and toe' is obviously not applicable. However, when driving my sports car, I do try to increase the engine revs for down gear changes, purely to minimise the clutch slip wear. The model has a a big V8 and a reputation for wearing out clutches.
From having read the comments I would like to add a few observations:
1. No one has mentioned coming off the brake pedal? This is a fundamental problem I have found with road users where drivers are very keen to depress the pedal as hard as possible but then release it in the same way. When on track I am all for leaving the braking till as late as possible and pressing it as hard as possible. This creates weight over the nose of the car and so will allow for better turn in, it also limits the amount of heat build up in the system which prevents the brake fluid from over heating as can be found by long shallow presses of the pedal under the premise that it is kinder to the brakes. But the fundamental part of this is that you should come off the brakes slowly to avoid that bobbing nose that now takes away all of the added weight you have just gained over the front axle.
2. No one has mentioned balancing the car in the bend. The key isnt so much scrubbing off the speed to make it around the bend, but more to allow you to be able to get back onto the throttle again to balance the car in the bend. Going around the corner on a neutral throttle will cause all manner of side effects and will make the vehicle feel bloody awful!
I mentioned "On the Track" for point 1 and this leads into "Heel and Toe", although if anyone can rotate their hip into a position that will allow heel and toe i will be very impressed!! lol
Everyone makes out it is the scurge of society when in actual fact it is another tool in your box that should know its place! I use it all the time on the track and in limited places on the road. We all make mistakes and having the ability to change gear mid bend, should the need arise, without affecting the balance of the vehicle can only be a plus point.
There are plenty of tools that can be brought over from the track, I have raced for many years and have also driven under blue lights and the two should never mix, but just on that odd occasion where you didnt make the right call then sometimes it is good to have the option to call on a different set of skills.
Another skill to learn is braking mid bend. For years we are told not to brake in the corner...but have you ever tried? What would you do if it all changed whilst going around a bend...we can plan for most events but there is always the inevitable spanner that gets thrown into the mix.
1. No one has mentioned coming off the brake pedal? This is a fundamental problem I have found with road users where drivers are very keen to depress the pedal as hard as possible but then release it in the same way. When on track I am all for leaving the braking till as late as possible and pressing it as hard as possible. This creates weight over the nose of the car and so will allow for better turn in, it also limits the amount of heat build up in the system which prevents the brake fluid from over heating as can be found by long shallow presses of the pedal under the premise that it is kinder to the brakes. But the fundamental part of this is that you should come off the brakes slowly to avoid that bobbing nose that now takes away all of the added weight you have just gained over the front axle.
2. No one has mentioned balancing the car in the bend. The key isnt so much scrubbing off the speed to make it around the bend, but more to allow you to be able to get back onto the throttle again to balance the car in the bend. Going around the corner on a neutral throttle will cause all manner of side effects and will make the vehicle feel bloody awful!
I mentioned "On the Track" for point 1 and this leads into "Heel and Toe", although if anyone can rotate their hip into a position that will allow heel and toe i will be very impressed!! lol
Everyone makes out it is the scurge of society when in actual fact it is another tool in your box that should know its place! I use it all the time on the track and in limited places on the road. We all make mistakes and having the ability to change gear mid bend, should the need arise, without affecting the balance of the vehicle can only be a plus point.
There are plenty of tools that can be brought over from the track, I have raced for many years and have also driven under blue lights and the two should never mix, but just on that odd occasion where you didnt make the right call then sometimes it is good to have the option to call on a different set of skills.
Another skill to learn is braking mid bend. For years we are told not to brake in the corner...but have you ever tried? What would you do if it all changed whilst going around a bend...we can plan for most events but there is always the inevitable spanner that gets thrown into the mix.
Edited by Talaus on Tuesday 23 July 09:08
Talaus said:
Going around the corner on a neutral throttle will cause all manner of side effects and will make the vehicle feel bloody awful!
I'm intrigued as to what this means with regard to road driving. There's all kinds of circumstances from a 'normal' bend, with a straight IPSGA type approach to a slightly tightening bend where you are losing speed further round the bend, to a bend with a hidden obstruction that causes you to brake (as you mentioned). I can't remember managing to make the vehicle feel bloody awful with all manner of side effects! How do you do that?Bert
BertBert said:
Talaus said:
Going around the corner on a neutral throttle will cause all manner of side effects and will make the vehicle feel bloody awful!
I'm intrigued as to what this means with regard to road driving. There's all kinds of circumstances from a 'normal' bend, with a straight IPSGA type approach to a slightly tightening bend where you are losing speed further round the bend, to a bend with a hidden obstruction that causes you to brake (as you mentioned). I can't remember managing to make the vehicle feel bloody awful with all manner of side effects! How do you do that?Bert
Talaus said:
Come into a bend on a negative/neutral throttle and then do the same bend on a positive throttle. Im not meaning that you plant the throttle to the floor and light up the rear tyres, but just controlling the weight transfer of the vehicle. So basically the car is at its most stable when stationary or when the car is neither accelerating or decelerating. That applies to a straight road, since when you start applying cornering forces the vehicle will naturally slow down. In order to compensate for this you need to apply a positive throttle to maintain stability.
Yep, I get that, but even when you are having to loose more speed in the bend because of the configuration of the corner (or any other reason), it doesn't feel bad or cause any side effects. It doesn't cause instability. It's perfectly possible to reduce speed with steering lock on when the limit point is still coming towards you without it being nasty. In fact it's pretty important that you can.BertBert said:
Talaus said:
Come into a bend on a negative/neutral throttle and then do the same bend on a positive throttle. Im not meaning that you plant the throttle to the floor and light up the rear tyres, but just controlling the weight transfer of the vehicle. So basically the car is at its most stable when stationary or when the car is neither accelerating or decelerating. That applies to a straight road, since when you start applying cornering forces the vehicle will naturally slow down. In order to compensate for this you need to apply a positive throttle to maintain stability.
Yep, I get that, but even when you are having to loose more speed in the bend because of the configuration of the corner (or any other reason), it doesn't feel bad or cause any side effects. It doesn't cause instability. It's perfectly possible to reduce speed with steering lock on when the limit point is still coming towards you without it being nasty. In fact it's pretty important that you can.Of course if you meet a problem mid bend then yes brake lift off...which highlights why I made a point about being able to understand how to stand on the brakes mid bend....and you wont find many, if any, members of the IAM teaching that in the lessons.
Ok, got it.
The IAM in its basic form isn't really interested in dynamics and car control. The best part of it for me is the observation and planning. Also the rev matching and smoothness of driving.
I'm a great fan of the under 17 car club where mine learned to drive back in the stone age. Great adherence to systematic driving plus car control and all sorts (of fun).
I was out with a friend's son at the weekend who is learning. We had a blast. He's a great learner and super to coach. I'm not impressed with his driving instructor. I'm a mere amateur but if I was doing it, he'd have done his test by now, he's very talented. Although I did wish for some cones and an open space to sort his steering out!
I'm rambling now.
Bert
The IAM in its basic form isn't really interested in dynamics and car control. The best part of it for me is the observation and planning. Also the rev matching and smoothness of driving.
I'm a great fan of the under 17 car club where mine learned to drive back in the stone age. Great adherence to systematic driving plus car control and all sorts (of fun).
I was out with a friend's son at the weekend who is learning. We had a blast. He's a great learner and super to coach. I'm not impressed with his driving instructor. I'm a mere amateur but if I was doing it, he'd have done his test by now, he's very talented. Although I did wish for some cones and an open space to sort his steering out!
I'm rambling now.
Bert
Talaus...i think you'll find that i did mention in words not quite the same as you put it having the gas on in a slightly "pulling" the car around bends with the weight "even" in my brief post
I can't agree with braking hard and even late on a road, as a road is very different to a track with so many different factors coming into play, you are also on a journey on a road, on a track you do a few laps, come off, let everything cool down, calm down yourself then go back on.....on a road you don't do that, and often other traffic will certainly be holding you up and prevent higher speeds into bends for prolonged periods.
Bert Bert,
I am sorry you feel that your adi is poor, but, he is preparing your youngster for a driving test that is very basic, I would hope that he is also preparing him for post test driving as well, but in my 15 + years as an adi customers don't want more than the basic skills as they feel on the whole it is wasting money. My customers don't have a choice, they do a lower speed rural drive around the New Forest where they generally have lower speed limits and animals to contend with, and also a high speed one taking in roads between Romsey, Winchester, Stockbridge, The "Walloops" , Salisbury, Ringwood.
They also now can go on the motorways with adi's in a dual controlled car which again they do, but, I get loads of parents complaining about how long they are taking, after all us old un's only took 10 lessons...right!?
They have to learn 4 reversing manoeuvres, and as the 3 point turn was dropped from the driving test, I still teach it as a basic "skill" cause we all go the wrong way now and again. Sat nav training is a must as half the test involves following the directions of one.
Is your adi fully qualified? What grade is he? what was his score on his last standards check? have you checked all of these before employing him? I suspect not. Don't throw stones at adi's some are very good, some not so. You get what you pay for
cheers James
I can't agree with braking hard and even late on a road, as a road is very different to a track with so many different factors coming into play, you are also on a journey on a road, on a track you do a few laps, come off, let everything cool down, calm down yourself then go back on.....on a road you don't do that, and often other traffic will certainly be holding you up and prevent higher speeds into bends for prolonged periods.
Bert Bert,
I am sorry you feel that your adi is poor, but, he is preparing your youngster for a driving test that is very basic, I would hope that he is also preparing him for post test driving as well, but in my 15 + years as an adi customers don't want more than the basic skills as they feel on the whole it is wasting money. My customers don't have a choice, they do a lower speed rural drive around the New Forest where they generally have lower speed limits and animals to contend with, and also a high speed one taking in roads between Romsey, Winchester, Stockbridge, The "Walloops" , Salisbury, Ringwood.
They also now can go on the motorways with adi's in a dual controlled car which again they do, but, I get loads of parents complaining about how long they are taking, after all us old un's only took 10 lessons...right!?
They have to learn 4 reversing manoeuvres, and as the 3 point turn was dropped from the driving test, I still teach it as a basic "skill" cause we all go the wrong way now and again. Sat nav training is a must as half the test involves following the directions of one.
Is your adi fully qualified? What grade is he? what was his score on his last standards check? have you checked all of these before employing him? I suspect not. Don't throw stones at adi's some are very good, some not so. You get what you pay for
cheers James
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