Indicate left after overtaking, or lane change on a motorway
Discussion
Ron240 said:
sibriers said:
Hmm..
Thing is, my "habit" is prescribed by Highway Code rules 103 and 133 and therefore not something I'll be giving up while I still hold a license!
I refer you to the last sentence in my post which you quoted.Thing is, my "habit" is prescribed by Highway Code rules 103 and 133 and therefore not something I'll be giving up while I still hold a license!
I fully accept this is an argument I am not going to win with drivers who think like you do.
Edited by Ron240 on Monday 2nd September 16:30
Not sure what anyone else thinks they're doing?
- Seems like some people are happy to swap out the "rules of the road" for the "I know better than that (advanced edition)".
Thing is, only one of those have even the slightest basis in UK law....
sibriers said:
Err. As stated, just conforming to the Highway Code mate.
Not sure what anyone else thinks they're doing?
- Seems like some people are happy to swap out the "rules of the road" for the "I know better than that (advanced edition)".
Thing is, only one of those have even the slightest basis in UK law....
The highway code sections you are referring to talk about signals not indicators. It also tells you what signals are what their purpose are it's to communicate your intention to other road users not to signal before every category they list. So unless you use all the signals every time you change course, direction (Taking a bend) stop or move off (even if just going straight ahead) - you may not have grasped what it means. You do know this approach is endorsed by the authors of the highway code and the people who decide who gets a driving licence? Not sure what anyone else thinks they're doing?
- Seems like some people are happy to swap out the "rules of the road" for the "I know better than that (advanced edition)".
Thing is, only one of those have even the slightest basis in UK law....
Graveworm said:
The highway code sections you are referring to talk about signals not indicators. It also tells you what signals are what their purpose are it's to communicate your intention to other road users not to signal before every category they list. So unless you use all the signals every time you change course, direction (Taking a bend) stop or move off (even if just going straight ahead) - you may not have grasped what it means. You do know this approach is endorsed by the authors of the highway code and the people who decide who gets a driving licence?
Highway Code rule 103 said:
Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians (download ‘Signals to other road users’), of your intended actions. You should always
Give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
Use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
Cancel them after use
Make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
Use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
Give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
Use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
Cancel them after use
Make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
Use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
Highway Code rule 133 said:
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
Right there Graveworm: 103 is a checklist of actions you should always take which I follow vigorously. So yes, I signal EVERY TIME I change course or direction, stop or move off UNLESS doing so might confuse others. eg indicating round a corner is plain wrong, and there's no way I'm aware of to signal moving off when stopped in traffic.Those two rules don't leave much to interpretation, yet this thread is littered with opinions like yours which contradict them.
How exactly do you signal your intentions to other road users unless you use your indicators? Brake lights? Reversing lights? Hand signals? Those are the signals described and it's a mistake to presume that your road positioning, speed etc are clear enough to *all* other road users to forgo using them, even if you can't see anyone else.
I understand that advanced driving teaches to indicate if it will benefit other road users. That instruction is perfectly compatible with the rules above UNTIL you start making presumptions about what should or shouldn't be obvious to other people. That's when you can mistakenly conclude that because it should be obvious, it's better to "reduce signal clutter" by not signalling.
Statements like this from the OP and similar: "Some drivers do indicate left after such a manoeuvre (overtake from L1>L2>L1), and I wonder why they do it." imply that many such presumptions are being made, and that the rules are being ignored or misinterpreted.
That brings us back to the whole "Indicating can confuse people" argument. Thankfully, the Highway Code doesn't cover some of the more advanced aspects of human vision (it's likely beyond many drivers). What it does is give a clear mandate to signal (that usually means indicate/brake/reverse if your lights are working) unless that signal could be misconstrued. Going back to the OP, a signal back into L1 after an overtake cannot be misinterpreted and may be informational to other users and is therefore the correct action as per both HC and AD.
bigdog3 said:
I am very wary of drivers who do not indicate when joining motorways or dual carriageways. In most cases they are not looking either and are completely unaware of traffic approaching.
An exellent point which has not yet been raised. Not indicating may well mean that the driver is not concentrating and has a wandering mind or unaware of traffic in their vicinity.When on the road I usually treat non indicators like, say, chav-platers. With caution.
(other poor driver traits are available).
sibriers said:
Graveworm said:
The highway code sections you are referring to talk about signals not indicators. It also tells you what signals are what their purpose are it's to communicate your intention to other road users not to signal before every category they list. So unless you use all the signals every time you change course, direction (Taking a bend) stop or move off (even if just going straight ahead) - you may not have grasped what it means. You do know this approach is endorsed by the authors of the highway code and the people who decide who gets a driving licence?
Highway Code rule 103 said:
Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians (download ‘Signals to other road users’), of your intended actions. You should always
Give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
Use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
Cancel them after use
Make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
Use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
Give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
Use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
Cancel them after use
Make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
Use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
Highway Code rule 133 said:
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
Right there Graveworm: 103 is a checklist of actions you should always take which I follow vigorously. So yes, I signal EVERY TIME I change course or direction, stop or move off UNLESS doing so might confuse others. eg indicating round a corner is plain wrong, and there's no way I'm aware of to signal moving off when stopped in traffic.Those two rules don't leave much to interpretation, yet this thread is littered with opinions like yours which contradict them.
How exactly do you signal your intentions to other road users unless you use your indicators? Brake lights? Reversing lights? Hand signals? Those are the signals described and it's a mistake to presume that your road positioning, speed etc are clear enough to *all* other road users to forgo using them, even if you can't see anyone else.
I understand that advanced driving teaches to indicate if it will benefit other road users. That instruction is perfectly compatible with the rules above UNTIL you start making presumptions about what should or shouldn't be obvious to other people. That's when you can mistakenly conclude that because it should be obvious, it's better to "reduce signal clutter" by not signalling.
Statements like this from the OP and similar: "Some drivers do indicate left after such a manoeuvre (overtake from L1>L2>L1), and I wonder why they do it." imply that many such presumptions are being made, and that the rules are being ignored or misinterpreted.
That brings us back to the whole "Indicating can confuse people" argument. Thankfully, the Highway Code doesn't cover some of the more advanced aspects of human vision (it's likely beyond many drivers). What it does is give a clear mandate to signal (that usually means indicate/brake/reverse if your lights are working) unless that signal could be misconstrued. Going back to the OP, a signal back into L1 after an overtake cannot be misinterpreted and may be informational to other users and is therefore the correct action as per both HC and AD.
That said I don't support the "It should be obvious" part you claim others do and that is not something I could get away with if I used it to justify not indicating. I signal if it can potentially warn or inform other road users and not confuse, irrespective of if it is obvious. I don't if it can't benefit as all it can do is confuse or distract - neither of which are good things for me or any other road users.
nonsequitur said:
bigdog3 said:
I am very wary of drivers who do not indicate when joining motorways or dual carriageways. In most cases they are not looking either and are completely unaware of traffic approaching.
An exellent point which has not yet been raised. Not indicating may well mean that the driver is not concentrating and has a wandering mind or unaware of traffic in their vicinity.When on the road I usually treat non indicators like, say, chav-platers. With caution.
(other poor driver traits are available).
If you are on a slip road to a motorway then by default it is your intention to join it. and those already on the motorway should realise that fact and by doing so means adjusting you speed to suit the existing traffic on the motorway to join it safely, WITHOUT causing those on the motorway to change course direction or speed
My indicator does not give me precedence to pull out on anyone on the motorway and go from slip road to L3/4 in any condition of traffic
Likewise when wishing to change lanes i do the MSM..and give plenty of indicating before commencing the move, until the SMM(irror) mob
My DI told me that as a rules of thumb to allow the signal to 'flash' once per every 10 mph before going commencing the move and to cancel when established in the lane required after checking there will also be pleny of time and space as to not give the approaching driver a bowel moving moment..
Edited by silverfoxcc on Wednesday 4th September 14:24
nonsequitur said:
bigdog3 said:
I am very wary of drivers who do not indicate when joining motorways or dual carriageways. In most cases they are not looking either and are completely unaware of traffic approaching.
An exellent point which has not yet been raised. Not indicating may well mean that the driver is not concentrating and has a wandering mind or unaware of traffic in their vicinity.When on the road I usually treat non indicators like, say, chav-platers. With caution.
(other poor driver traits are available).
silverfoxcc said:
Surely a signal is to notify others of your intentions?
If you are on a slip road to a motorway then by default it is your intention to join it. and those already on the motorway should realise that fact a
Should have / could have / might have. Nothing is certain or obvious where driving is concerned as we as PHers know only too well. Travelling at high speeds joining a MW requires an indication.If you are on a slip road to a motorway then by default it is your intention to join it. and those already on the motorway should realise that fact a
Edited by silverfoxcc on Wednesday 4th September 14:24
And at any other time when a change of direction is imminent.
nonsequitur said:
silverfoxcc said:
Surely a signal is to notify others of your intentions?
If you are on a slip road to a motorway then by default it is your intention to join it. and those already on the motorway should realise that fact a
Should have / could have / might have. Nothing is certain or obvious where driving is concerned as we as PHers know only too well. Travelling at high speeds joining a MW requires an indication.If you are on a slip road to a motorway then by default it is your intention to join it. and those already on the motorway should realise that fact a
Edited by silverfoxcc on Wednesday 4th September 14:24
And at any other time when a change of direction is imminent.
Highway Code rule 103 said:
Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians (download ‘Signals to other road users’), of your intended actions. You should always
Give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
Use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
Cancel them after use
Make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
Use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
Give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
Use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
Cancel them after use
Make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
Use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
Highway Code rule 133 said:
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
Graveworm said:
103 First defines signals, and when they are to be used and then tells you how to use them. "Should always" applies to what happens once the requirement to signal exists it is not in the first section. This is not just indicating - signalling is when it is to warn or inform other road users. That is not the same as, you should always signal, which is, of course, not correct. For that to be the meaning the phrases would be in a different order. Otherwise we would be sounding the horn at every bend and flashing headlights when approaching every hazard.
OK. Are we reading the same text here? Even if you deliberately misread it's intentions as you've suggested, "Make sure your signals will not confuse others." would prevent all but the most intellectually challenged from driving around honking and flashing away at everything.
That said I don't support the "It should be obvious" part you claim others do and that is not something I could get away with if I used it to justify not indicating. I signal if it can potentially warn or inform other road users and not confuse, irrespective of if it is obvious. I don't if it can't benefit as all it can do is confuse or distract - neither of which are good things for me or any other road users.
Cool. So, in the example the OP gave you would indicate back to L1 then?
If not, what's your justification? How could signalling be confusing to other users?
OK. Are we reading the same text here? Even if you deliberately misread it's intentions as you've suggested, "Make sure your signals will not confuse others." would prevent all but the most intellectually challenged from driving around honking and flashing away at everything.
That said I don't support the "It should be obvious" part you claim others do and that is not something I could get away with if I used it to justify not indicating. I signal if it can potentially warn or inform other road users and not confuse, irrespective of if it is obvious. I don't if it can't benefit as all it can do is confuse or distract - neither of which are good things for me or any other road users.
Cool. So, in the example the OP gave you would indicate back to L1 then?
If not, what's your justification? How could signalling be confusing to other users?
I am always keen to pull back into lane 1 after overtaking, signalling when appropriate. But I resist that impulse and stay out in the second lane for a few seconds when passing slip road exits. Competing for space in lane 1 from those on the slip road and me pulling back in, is not a good idea. Also stops any problems if I haven't spotted a car or bike in the door mirror, travelling fast down the slip road.
Most significant benefit is in my van which has a rigid 70mph limiter. Going faster alleviates the problem but is illegal and will be actively discouraged by the new mandatory speed limiters.
Most significant benefit is in my van which has a rigid 70mph limiter. Going faster alleviates the problem but is illegal and will be actively discouraged by the new mandatory speed limiters.
Edited by bigdog3 on Wednesday 4th September 17:12
bigdog3 said:
I am always keen to pull back into lane 1 after overtaking, signalling when appropriate. But I resist that impulse and stay out in the second lane for a few seconds when passing slip road exits. Competing for space in lane 1 from those on the slip road and me pulling back in, is not a good idea. Also stops any problems if I haven't spotted a car or bike in the door mirror, travelling fast down the slip road.
Most significant benefit is in my van which has a rigid 70mph limiter. Going faster alleviates the problem but is illegal and will be actively discouraged by the new mandatory speed limiters.
Good plan, same here.Most significant benefit is in my van which has a rigid 70mph limiter. Going faster alleviates the problem but is illegal and will be actively discouraged by the new mandatory speed limiters.
Edited by bigdog3 on Wednesday 4th September 17:12
sibriers said:
Highway Code rule 103 said:
Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians (download ‘Signals to other road users’), of your intended actions. You should always
Give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
Use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
Cancel them after use
Make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
Use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
Give clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
Use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
Cancel them after use
Make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
Use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
Highway Code rule 133 said:
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
Graveworm said:
103 First defines signals, and when they are to be used and then tells you how to use them. "Should always" applies to what happens once the requirement to signal exists it is not in the first section. This is not just indicating - signalling is when it is to warn or inform other road users. That is not the same as, you should always signal, which is, of course, not correct. For that to be the meaning the phrases would be in a different order. Otherwise we would be sounding the horn at every bend and flashing headlights when approaching every hazard.
OK. Are we reading the same text here? Even if you deliberately misread it's intentions as you've suggested, "Make sure your signals will not confuse others." would prevent all but the most intellectually challenged from driving around honking and flashing away at everything.
That said I don't support the "It should be obvious" part you claim others do and that is not something I could get away with if I used it to justify not indicating. I signal if it can potentially warn or inform other road users and not confuse, irrespective of if it is obvious. I don't if it can't benefit as all it can do is confuse or distract - neither of which are good things for me or any other road users.
Cool. So, in the example the OP gave you would indicate back to L1 then?
If not, what's your justification? How could signalling be confusing to other users?
OK. Are we reading the same text here? Even if you deliberately misread it's intentions as you've suggested, "Make sure your signals will not confuse others." would prevent all but the most intellectually challenged from driving around honking and flashing away at everything.
That said I don't support the "It should be obvious" part you claim others do and that is not something I could get away with if I used it to justify not indicating. I signal if it can potentially warn or inform other road users and not confuse, irrespective of if it is obvious. I don't if it can't benefit as all it can do is confuse or distract - neither of which are good things for me or any other road users.
Cool. So, in the example the OP gave you would indicate back to L1 then?
If not, what's your justification? How could signalling be confusing to other users?
Seems odd that they would include it within every section on signalling, when they could omit it and it would then mean what you think it should. It also seems odd that the bodies responsible for the highway code, not to mention the police, fire brigade, ambulance etc all are very happy that it doesn't mean always indicate/signal.
Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 4th September 18:00
Vipers said:
Good plan, same here.
Incidentally, bunching caused by the new mandatory speed limiters will result in accidents which previously would have been avoided by more experienced/better drivers. Their options will have diminished.However this will probably be more than offset by lower speeds decreasing the severity of accidents for muppets. Yet again we are reduced to the lowest common denominator, known as Reverse Darwinism.
Rob you said
As above, Silverfox's statement is not a 'fact' - it is not inevitable that a driver on a sliproad is joining, because some sliproads become a new lane, and this may not be known to all road users at the time. This is why signalling is vital. It also wakes people up a bit that you're about to do something! Some posters on here make far too many assumptions about the abilities of the average road user...
You are seeing something i didn't say.. I said 'joining' and even using your analogy you are JOINING the motorway Have a look at the M25 between the M4 and M3 anticlockwise you may well be in lanes 1/2 between the A30 on and M3 off but you have still joined it
Ok a question.
If it Isn't your intention to join the main carriageway WTF are you doing there?
Assuming you are not an idiot and driven up it by mistake and decide to reverse back... and don't say it doesn't happen
As above, Silverfox's statement is not a 'fact' - it is not inevitable that a driver on a sliproad is joining, because some sliproads become a new lane, and this may not be known to all road users at the time. This is why signalling is vital. It also wakes people up a bit that you're about to do something! Some posters on here make far too many assumptions about the abilities of the average road user...
You are seeing something i didn't say.. I said 'joining' and even using your analogy you are JOINING the motorway Have a look at the M25 between the M4 and M3 anticlockwise you may well be in lanes 1/2 between the A30 on and M3 off but you have still joined it
Ok a question.
If it Isn't your intention to join the main carriageway WTF are you doing there?
Assuming you are not an idiot and driven up it by mistake and decide to reverse back... and don't say it doesn't happen
silverfoxcc said:
Rob you said
As above, Silverfox's statement is not a 'fact' - it is not inevitable that a driver on a sliproad is joining, because some sliproads become a new lane, and this may not be known to all road users at the time. This is why signalling is vital. It also wakes people up a bit that you're about to do something! Some posters on here make far too many assumptions about the abilities of the average road user...
You are seeing something i didn't say.. I said 'joining' and even using your analogy you are JOINING the motorway Have a look at the M25 between the M4 and M3 anticlockwise you may well be in lanes 1/2 between the A30 on and M3 off but you have still joined it
Ok a question.
If it Isn't your intention to join the main carriageway WTF are you doing there?
Assuming you are not an idiot and driven up it by mistake and decide to reverse back... and don't say it doesn't happen
1) Not all sliproads are clearly visible to traffic already on the MW.As above, Silverfox's statement is not a 'fact' - it is not inevitable that a driver on a sliproad is joining, because some sliproads become a new lane, and this may not be known to all road users at the time. This is why signalling is vital. It also wakes people up a bit that you're about to do something! Some posters on here make far too many assumptions about the abilities of the average road user...
You are seeing something i didn't say.. I said 'joining' and even using your analogy you are JOINING the motorway Have a look at the M25 between the M4 and M3 anticlockwise you may well be in lanes 1/2 between the A30 on and M3 off but you have still joined it
Ok a question.
If it Isn't your intention to join the main carriageway WTF are you doing there?
Assuming you are not an idiot and driven up it by mistake and decide to reverse back... and don't say it doesn't happen
2) Indicating on the sliproad gives MW traffic a chance to move into L2, (If Possible), to allow joiners to enter smoothly.
3) There is no rational reason not to indicate when entering a high speed highway.
nonsequitur said:
There is no rational reason not to indicate when entering a high speed highway.
I could answer this.....but I feel I would be wasting my time. I think the conclusion we have come to here is - there is certainly truth in what all are saying on this subject, but nobody is 100% correct.
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff