disappointing first session of IAM training
Discussion
johnao said:
SOL111 said:
... still very useful and is what ultimately motivated me to do the full course.
Although sadly I've no motivation for my master's despite being encouraged to do so my my examiner.
If your examiner has encouraged you to do Masters he's obviously seen something about your driving that he likes and believes that you would enjoy the Masters course, find it beneficial and would have no difficulty in completing it successfully.Although sadly I've no motivation for my master's despite being encouraged to do so my my examiner.
As a Masters mentor I too would encourage you to have a go. Every candidate that I've mentored has found the course beneficial and, without exception, their driving has been elevated to a higher level.
Even if you don't have a go immediately why don't you put the idea away in the drawer for later? You may feel that in a couple of years time you're ready for another challenge. And, never forget that your examiner saw something during your test that prompted him to recommend that you have a go at Masters!
Edited by johnao on Friday 26th July 13:53
I've no doubt that the course would make me a better driver and I think I'd enjoy . I think it's good value too and my examiner (a she btw
) is someone I know I'd gel with.I think it's mainly the commitment necessary and the fact I'm not great at exam time. I was trained by another great instructor, who nailed her master's and got me to the standard for a first (or so she thought) but I ended up with a pass due to nerves (stupid I know
). I made a lot of ridiculous errors, despite the examiner being the most easy going person imaginable.Like you say, it might be worth reviewing in a year or so although I'll probably need some IAM refresher drives by then!
SOL111 said:
Like you say, it might be worth reviewing in a year or so although I'll probably need some IAM refresher drives by then!
I notice that you are based in Hertfordshire. Are you a member of Home Counties North Group? The group is based in Welwyn but covers the whole of Hertfordshire. You will easily find members in the Home Counties North Group who are be willing to give you refresher drives and, eventually, when you're ready, some Master's taster drives.Just a thought.
johnao said:
SOL111 said:
Like you say, it might be worth reviewing in a year or so although I'll probably need some IAM refresher drives by then!
I notice that you are based in Hertfordshire. Are you a member of Home Counties North Group? The group is based in Welwyn but covers the whole of Hertfordshire. You will easily find members in the Home Counties North Group who are be willing to give you refresher drives and, eventually, when you're ready, some Master's taster drives.Just a thought.
I'm with MKAM. I think my profile must be out of date as I'm close to Milton Keynes nowadays.
I think they'll be similar but sounds like there are some great groups around, which is positive.
7mike said:
and your point is? I've trained former police class 1 drivers who weren’t fully familiar with rule 129 either
Solid whites are a bone of contention in general though, and often causes confusion in training scenario's. There are occasions when solid white lines can be crossed, ( parked cars, slow moving vehicles e.t.c. ) but when making progress on blue lights there is no specific exemption. "Public expectation" is the phrase banded around to cover overtakes in these circumstances, but that phrase is still insufficient to provide an exemption. Not hassling the car in front, dropping back and allowing them time to slow down in order to pass is all part of that process, but your unlikely to wait until they are stationary before passing them. So it's still all down to goodwill.Class 1 is not a driving classification either.
Dizeee said:
7mike said:
and your point is? I've trained former police class 1 drivers who weren’t fully familiar with rule 129 either
Solid whites are a bone of contention in general though, and often causes confusion in training scenario's. There are occasions when solid white lines can be crossed, ( parked cars, slow moving vehicles e.t.c. ) but when making progress on blue lights there is no specific exemption. "Public expectation" is the phrase banded around to cover overtakes in these circumstances, but that phrase is still insufficient to provide an exemption. Not hassling the car in front, dropping back and allowing them time to slow down in order to pass is all part of that process, but your unlikely to wait until they are stationary before passing them. So it's still all down to goodwill.Class 1 is not a driving classification either.
7mike said:
I'm sure you will agree, any employer, regardless of the activities of their employees has a responsibility towards managing risk associated with those activities. I've no idea what your own experience of 'fleet' driver training is but fortunately, most I work with now realise how pointless pushing their drivers through advanced tests is to their needs. Most of us tend to focus on risk reduction based, not least on identifying specific risks a particular driver is exposed to. There are some that still think a ‘one size fits all’ approach is appropriate and waste a day prattling on about block gear changing whilst trying to impress with a demo drive flogging the death out of the client’s car on the nearest bit of
I completely agree. In the short time that is usually available, fleet training has to be about risk management. In that way the employer gets a safer-driving employee, a reduction in insurance claims and covers the corporate manslaughter angle.Which is why I'm surprised that the IAM has a course intended to turn-out fully fledged advanced drivers [Yes, well, what I mean is drivers that can pass their advanced driving test] in two half-day sessions.
I haven't coached fleet training myself but have spoken to many fleet trainers comparing and contrasting the difference in attitude and commitment in general between the fleet-training employee-candidate and the self-motivated, self-funding IAM or RoSPA candidate.
7mike said:
Incidentally; tarring all ADIs with the same brush is very well but please bare in mind an ADI is the holder of a licence issued by the DVSA to legally receive money to give any form of driving instruction on public roads. Personally, I’ve not been in a car with a learner for about twelve years now.
A slight correction there, if I may. I didn't, or didn't intend to, "tar all ADIs with the same brush". If I recall correctly, I think I said that it is rare to find an ADI who understands advanced driving. Which in my experience is true. However, I know a number of ADIs who completely understand about advanced driving and they are very, very good.7mike said:
If I was to describe your activities based on my experience of IAM observers I’ve been on the road with then I’m sure you would be rather offended. I thought it best not to tell them about the RoSPA dip I already had so was quite amusing to listen to some of the rubbish that was churned out by ‘the experts’. 
When you say "describe your activities" I'm assuming that you are not necessarily directing that comment at me personally as in "your (ie. my) activities". I'm assuming that you are directing the comment at the general body of IAM observers. No, I wouldn't be offended by what you say because whatever you might say would probably be no more excoriating than many of my own comments over the years. But, in fairness to the IAM they have in recent years put in place a process for significantly improving observer standards which has seen the removal/departure of a lot of those observers who really weren't fully competent, either because they didn't fully understand what they were supposed to be doing, or were so dogmatic and inflexible they were a source of exasperation to all concerned.
Regards.
Hi, I thought I'd chuck in my tuppenceworth re advanced training.
I was lucky enough to be put through IAM about 30 years ago by my employer when a test engineer for a manufacturer, followed by HPC, followed by more specialised stuff like recovering from rollover and off road.
Steering - shuffling the wheel - Yup, they insisted on it. Pain in the bum to learn and get smooth and fast. I thought they were taking the mickey when they suggested shoving a round tea tray up your jumper to practice. Honestly, I did that. One of the pass requirements was to complete a full circuit of MIRA wet handling track including a smooth 360 of the wet basalt tile circle, all of it using smooth opposite lock to opposite lock steering - Drifting, before it was a thing! But all steering had to be shuffled. You can get really fast and get a full half turn out of each bite. If you attempt it using crossed arms etc then there is a tendency to get arms tied in a knot. It's the best way in extreme situations.
I steer that way to this day, especially when on track or pushing it a bit. If you are practiced and experienced then it is pretty much the fastest and most controlled way to steer. Really useful provided you are practiced and experienced enough to attempt to recover from an extreme situation.
But -Most day to day drivers dont experience enough extremes to be practiced. Most cars have ESP systems that are better than the average driver at controlling extremes.
Bottom line, daily driver - shuffling is pointless, if your going to get into advanced driving or track driving, very much worth perservering.
IAM Ive had very varied experiences - ex police instructors are excellent and tend to be realistic about applying roadcraft to real situations. IAM Motorcyclists tend to be similarly excellent. IAM 'civilian' drivers perhaps have a tendency to be old white and middle class and obsessed with literal interpretations of rules and laws
IAM getting more rigid in training - I know a Bike Examiner - they have had to undertake a qualification to become trained assessors. It's the way of the world, you need formal processes in place because even volunteers can be sued.
If you enjoy your driving - perservere with training - you will probably find some observers and assessors in your local group that you gel with - the ones who still think it is OK to actively enjoy your driving
the more advanced stuff will likely come out once youve showed you can do the basics. If you can afford something more focused later on like HPC (Is HPC still going? Is that irritatingly smooth driver John Lyons still there?) then I'd highly recommend it.
I was lucky enough to be put through IAM about 30 years ago by my employer when a test engineer for a manufacturer, followed by HPC, followed by more specialised stuff like recovering from rollover and off road.
Steering - shuffling the wheel - Yup, they insisted on it. Pain in the bum to learn and get smooth and fast. I thought they were taking the mickey when they suggested shoving a round tea tray up your jumper to practice. Honestly, I did that. One of the pass requirements was to complete a full circuit of MIRA wet handling track including a smooth 360 of the wet basalt tile circle, all of it using smooth opposite lock to opposite lock steering - Drifting, before it was a thing! But all steering had to be shuffled. You can get really fast and get a full half turn out of each bite. If you attempt it using crossed arms etc then there is a tendency to get arms tied in a knot. It's the best way in extreme situations.
I steer that way to this day, especially when on track or pushing it a bit. If you are practiced and experienced then it is pretty much the fastest and most controlled way to steer. Really useful provided you are practiced and experienced enough to attempt to recover from an extreme situation.
But -Most day to day drivers dont experience enough extremes to be practiced. Most cars have ESP systems that are better than the average driver at controlling extremes.
Bottom line, daily driver - shuffling is pointless, if your going to get into advanced driving or track driving, very much worth perservering.
IAM Ive had very varied experiences - ex police instructors are excellent and tend to be realistic about applying roadcraft to real situations. IAM Motorcyclists tend to be similarly excellent. IAM 'civilian' drivers perhaps have a tendency to be old white and middle class and obsessed with literal interpretations of rules and laws
IAM getting more rigid in training - I know a Bike Examiner - they have had to undertake a qualification to become trained assessors. It's the way of the world, you need formal processes in place because even volunteers can be sued.
If you enjoy your driving - perservere with training - you will probably find some observers and assessors in your local group that you gel with - the ones who still think it is OK to actively enjoy your driving
the more advanced stuff will likely come out once youve showed you can do the basics. If you can afford something more focused later on like HPC (Is HPC still going? Is that irritatingly smooth driver John Lyons still there?) then I'd highly recommend it. johnao said:
I completely agree. In the short time that is usually available, fleet training has to be about risk management. In that way the employer gets a safer-driving employee, a reduction in insurance claims and covers the corporate manslaughter angle.
Which is why I'm surprised that the IAM has a course intended to turn-out fully fledged advanced drivers [Yes, well, what I mean is drivers that can pass their advanced driving test] in two half-day sessions.
I haven't coached fleet training myself but have spoken to many fleet trainers comparing and contrasting the difference in attitude and commitment in general between the fleet-training employee-candidate and the self-motivated, self-funding IAM or RoSPA candidate.
I’m afraid the above mystifies me..Which is why I'm surprised that the IAM has a course intended to turn-out fully fledged advanced drivers [Yes, well, what I mean is drivers that can pass their advanced driving test] in two half-day sessions.
I haven't coached fleet training myself but have spoken to many fleet trainers comparing and contrasting the difference in attitude and commitment in general between the fleet-training employee-candidate and the self-motivated, self-funding IAM or RoSPA candidate.
If someone manages to pass an advanced test then presumably they have demonstrated that their competence, knowledge and attitude is sufficient to do so? How they prepared for the test doesn’t seem particularly relevant.
If someone is ‘self motivated and self funding’ then the chances are that they have an interest in improving their driving in the first place. If, on the other hand, someone doesn’t have that interest then ‘capturing’ that person through a company requirement or whatever must surely be a good thing?
Dizeee said:
7mike said:
and your point is? I've trained former police class 1 drivers who weren’t fully familiar with rule 129 either
Solid whites are a bone of contention in general though, and often causes confusion in training scenario's. There are occasions when solid white lines can be crossed, ( parked cars, slow moving vehicles e.t.c. ) but when making progress on blue lights there is no specific exemption. "Public expectation" is the phrase banded around to cover overtakes in these circumstances, but that phrase is still insufficient to provide an exemption. Not hassling the car in front, dropping back and allowing them time to slow down in order to pass is all part of that process, but your unlikely to wait until they are stationary before passing them. So it's still all down to goodwill.Class 1 is not a driving classification either.
The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises.
Talaus said:
Solid white lines are not really a bone of contention, even under blue light training there are zero exemptions when it comes to white lines. If you approach white lines then the best thing to do is turn off the lights and sirens and follow at a sensible speed. Otherwise the person you are following tends to park on the apex of a bend and my ambulance never seemed to be fitted with the magic periscope that could see around bends!
The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises.
Having been overtaken on solid double white lines as a cyclist doing 25mph on a downhill stretch by an ambulance without sirens, followed by 3 sheep behind him I wish more ambulance drivers had as good an understanding The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises.
[quote=Talaus]
Solid white lines are not really a bone of contention, even under blue light training there are zero exemptions when it comes to white lines. If you approach white lines then the best thing to do is turn off the lights and sirens and follow at a sensible speed. Otherwise the person you are following tends to park on the apex of a bend and my ambulance never seemed to be fitted with the magic periscope that could see around bends!
The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises. [/quote
My ex police instructor explained it to me as " You can only cross a solid white to pass a stationary object" He did however add "You'd be amazed how fast some stationary objects can go"
Solid white lines are not really a bone of contention, even under blue light training there are zero exemptions when it comes to white lines. If you approach white lines then the best thing to do is turn off the lights and sirens and follow at a sensible speed. Otherwise the person you are following tends to park on the apex of a bend and my ambulance never seemed to be fitted with the magic periscope that could see around bends!
The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises. [/quote
My ex police instructor explained it to me as " You can only cross a solid white to pass a stationary object" He did however add "You'd be amazed how fast some stationary objects can go"
The real skodaman said:
Bottom line, daily driver - shuffling is pointless, if your going to get into advanced driving or track driving, very much worth perservering.
Really? Since doing my IAM I pull/push almost exclusively as it's far easier and find it way more efficient. If I know or can see a bend clearly enough I may just stay at 3 and 9 o'clock but otherwise pull/push.On the track I stay at 3 and 9 without taking my hands off the wheel.
I think most non IAM drivers would find it better too, if they'd just stop shuffling and do full 180° turns. Often I see crossovers going from 12-3 with the left hand or 12-9 with the right.
SOL111 said:
The real skodaman said:
Bottom line, daily driver - shuffling is pointless, if your going to get into advanced driving or track driving, very much worth perservering.
Really? Since doing my IAM I pull/push almost exclusively as it's far easier and find it way more efficient. If I know or can see a bend clearly enough I may just stay at 3 and 9 o'clock but otherwise pull/push.On the track I stay at 3 and 9 without taking my hands off the wheel.
I think most non IAM drivers would find it better too, if they'd just stop shuffling and do full 180° turns. Often I see crossovers going from 12-3 with the left hand or 12-9 with the right.
Shuffling isnt pointless you can be just as quick running the wheel that way and stay in control of the vehicle. Remember that for track work most vehicles, and certainly my own race car, are fitted with a much faster rack which allows you to cross your arms and still achieve enough lock for a hairpin.
You can do the whole pull push thing without looking like some sports jacket (leather elbow pads optional) wearing metro driving BSM instructor with their glasses half way down their noses!
Also there is nothing to stop you keep your hands on the wheel to tackle most high-speed bends in the same way you would on a track, as long as you dont exceed the 12 o'clock limit then keep your hands fixed on the wheel. Plus if you know you need a greater handful move your hands to either 1:35 or 5:55 depending on which corner you about to take and then you have additional lock.
Dr Jekyll said:
The ADI I was talking about thought it was illegal to overtake where there was a solid line on your side even if you didn't cross or straddle it.
My goodness - seriously? So for example, a motorbike filtering down the side of traffic and not crossing the solid line etc?Talaus said:
Solid white lines are not really a bone of contention, even under blue light training there are zero exemptions when it comes to white lines. If you approach white lines then the best thing to do is turn off the lights and sirens and follow at a sensible speed. Otherwise the person you are following tends to park on the apex of a bend and my ambulance never seemed to be fitted with the magic periscope that could see around bends!
The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises.
The issue comes though when you have a road user who is aware of your intention to get past, lights and sirens or not, and voluntarily slows or stops within the white line system. If you just stay behind them, and refuse to accept the opportunity, it gets messy. If they are stationary, then fine, but, when negotiating a series of bends on t your average country B road, it just doesn't work continually declining the assistance afforded by some members of public.The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises.
Same for Red ATS - you may slow and switch off but more often than not they voluntarily cross the white line and allow you access. To then sit there and not take advantage of the gap created is counter productive.
Dizeee said:
Talaus said:
Solid white lines are not really a bone of contention, even under blue light training there are zero exemptions when it comes to white lines. If you approach white lines then the best thing to do is turn off the lights and sirens and follow at a sensible speed. Otherwise the person you are following tends to park on the apex of a bend and my ambulance never seemed to be fitted with the magic periscope that could see around bends!
The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises.
The issue comes though when you have a road user who is aware of your intention to get past, lights and sirens or not, and voluntarily slows or stops within the white line system. If you just stay behind them, and refuse to accept the opportunity, it gets messy. If they are stationary, then fine, but, when negotiating a series of bends on t your average country B road, it just doesn't work continually declining the assistance afforded by some members of public.The same applies to the approach of a red light at a junction as you are not allowed to force people out into the on coming traffic by making them pull out to help you through.
Sometime it is just faster to control without the use of blue lights.
As for options when overtaking vehicles they are all down to the highway code, so yes stationary vehicles, but not slow moving vehicles only road maintenance vehicles, cyclists and horses. Everyone else you have to wait until it is clear. Oh and you are allowed to cross the white line if you are turning into a side road etc/premises.
Same for Red ATS - you may slow and switch off but more often than not they voluntarily cross the white line and allow you access. To then sit there and not take advantage of the gap created is counter productive.
What it does go to highlight is how many people use their mirrors (Or not as the case usually is)
Dizeee said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The ADI I was talking about thought it was illegal to overtake where there was a solid line on your side even if you didn't cross or straddle it.
My goodness - seriously? So for example, a motorbike filtering down the side of traffic and not crossing the solid line etc?Dr Jekyll said:
Dizeee said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The ADI I was talking about thought it was illegal to overtake where there was a solid line on your side even if you didn't cross or straddle it.
My goodness - seriously? So for example, a motorbike filtering down the side of traffic and not crossing the solid line etc?One view is that the traffic queue is “parked”; so that’s ok then. Another view is that it’s temporarily stationary, ie “waiting”; so that’s not OK.
But clearly it’s the crossing of the solid white line that is the issue, not that an overtake within the white lines has taken place.
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