Overtake - Make Own Gap
Discussion
Green1man said:
I’m somewhat confused by this, just how big is this ‘space’ that you should leave to allow someone to overtake you?
In reality if cars are just following each other without showing overtaking inclination then they might be following each other with a 2 second gap (assuming reasonably competent drivers). So are we saying we cannot overtake anyone here? By definition overtaking in this (pretty typical) scenario is going to create a 1 second gap in front and behind you so inevitably causing the overtaken car to slow slightly (hopefully without brake use). Most drivers will see the overtaking driver and ease off accordingly, you can’t just assume you aren’t going to change speed if someone overtakes you.
Of course you may encounter those idiots that actually close the gap to prevent you cutting back in and thus create a dangerous situation, here a faster car does help as you can be back in before thay have chance to increase speed.
Clearly in the OP scenario the driver is tootling along on autopilot without and clue what’s happening behind him.
Personally, 2 seconds is what I'd be looking for. Causing a car to slow would count against you on a driving test so would apply the same logic.In reality if cars are just following each other without showing overtaking inclination then they might be following each other with a 2 second gap (assuming reasonably competent drivers). So are we saying we cannot overtake anyone here? By definition overtaking in this (pretty typical) scenario is going to create a 1 second gap in front and behind you so inevitably causing the overtaken car to slow slightly (hopefully without brake use). Most drivers will see the overtaking driver and ease off accordingly, you can’t just assume you aren’t going to change speed if someone overtakes you.
Of course you may encounter those idiots that actually close the gap to prevent you cutting back in and thus create a dangerous situation, here a faster car does help as you can be back in before thay have chance to increase speed.
Clearly in the OP scenario the driver is tootling along on autopilot without and clue what’s happening behind him.
If I couldn't cleanly overtake all cars at once then I wouldn't bother and just suck it up.
It's precisely people prioritising their own progress over everything else that causes problems IMO.
StressedDave said:
Crippo said:
I don’t need anyone to leave me a gap, I can slot my car into any gap that is only a little longer than the length of my car. All I’m doing is robbing their space, they can drop back. The truth is that I’m only overtaking them if i’m Overtaking all of them so as far as they’re concerned I’ll be gone in a few seconds anyway.
Nah, I'm with von here... the crowbar overtake might have been acceptable practice 15-20 years ago but times change. I'm not sure quite how prevalent it is in current Police training circles, but I'd imagine it's not something done with gay abandon on Standard Car courses when there is a distinct absence of blue lights to ease the passage. Not to mention the lack of poke in the cars selected for training in. On the civilian side of driving, it's just not worth the aggravation should you get stuck in front of the overtakee because road layout or traffic conditions change. It's purely an overtake for ego's sake as all you've done is swap the running order and potentially annoyed the Red Bull-drinking, goatee-sporting, powerfully built Company Director to the level that he's prepared to follow you back to your house to remonstrate with you as to your lack of driving prowess.
Slotting your way into a gap robbing someone of their thinking distance is pretty f
k-witted. Causing another road user to either brake or change their direction of motion is s3 RTA and, depending on outcome a smaller number. And where do you set the limit on the number of cars in front before you stop and say, you know what, it's not worth it? Unless you're on a very long journey, the difference in travel time is going to be marginal.Top trolling BTW...
[/quoteYour comment about times changing is interesting. Why was overtaking a line of traffic in stages acceptable 20 years ago but not anymore? It’s not possible to overtake 10 cars in one go on most Welsh roads so how on earth does one make progress or is overtaking suddenly not the done thing anymore. Your other comment about leaving other drivers with no space....well, I didn’t leave them with no space, if they are driving too close that I have to rob their space whilst overtaking them then tough. It’s not my fault...or again am I expected not to overtake.?
Crippo said:
StressedDave said:
Crippo said:
I don’t need anyone to leave me a gap, I can slot my car into any gap that is only a little longer than the length of my car. All I’m doing is robbing their space, they can drop back. The truth is that I’m only overtaking them if i’m Overtaking all of them so as far as they’re concerned I’ll be gone in a few seconds anyway.
Nah, I'm with von here... the crowbar overtake might have been acceptable practice 15-20 years ago but times change. I'm not sure quite how prevalent it is in current Police training circles, but I'd imagine it's not something done with gay abandon on Standard Car courses when there is a distinct absence of blue lights to ease the passage. Not to mention the lack of poke in the cars selected for training in. On the civilian side of driving, it's just not worth the aggravation should you get stuck in front of the overtakee because road layout or traffic conditions change. It's purely an overtake for ego's sake as all you've done is swap the running order and potentially annoyed the Red Bull-drinking, goatee-sporting, powerfully built Company Director to the level that he's prepared to follow you back to your house to remonstrate with you as to your lack of driving prowess.
Slotting your way into a gap robbing someone of their thinking distance is pretty f
k-witted. Causing another road user to either brake or change their direction of motion is s3 RTA and, depending on outcome a smaller number. And where do you set the limit on the number of cars in front before you stop and say, you know what, it's not worth it? Unless you're on a very long journey, the difference in travel time is going to be marginal.Top trolling BTW...
If they are too close already though, then your overtake is likely to amount to a Sec2/3 RTA.
Sometimes we can't do things (& remain legal) just because we want to do it. Sometimes there just isn't the opportunity for a safe & legal overtake available.
SOL111 said:
Personally, 2 seconds is what I'd be looking for. Causing a car to slow would count against you on a driving test so would apply the same logic.
If I couldn't cleanly overtake all cars at once then I wouldn't bother and just suck it up.
It's precisely people prioritising their own progress over everything else that causes problems IMO.
So pretty much by definition we cannot overtake lines of traffic!?If I couldn't cleanly overtake all cars at once then I wouldn't bother and just suck it up.
It's precisely people prioritising their own progress over everything else that causes problems IMO.
Previous Advanced driving advice on here has strongly advised against overtaking long lines of traffic due to possibility of someone pulling out on you having not allowed for such a manoeuvre.
My view is that is it Ok, and in fact inevitable that you might have to make your own gap (depending on how you define ‘make’), certainly to the extent that the overtaken car may need to adjust their speed.
Green1man said:
SOL111 said:
Personally, 2 seconds is what I'd be looking for. Causing a car to slow would count against you on a driving test so would apply the same logic.
If I couldn't cleanly overtake all cars at once then I wouldn't bother and just suck it up.
It's precisely people prioritising their own progress over everything else that causes problems IMO.
So pretty much by definition we cannot overtake lines of traffic!?If I couldn't cleanly overtake all cars at once then I wouldn't bother and just suck it up.
It's precisely people prioritising their own progress over everything else that causes problems IMO.
Previous Advanced driving advice on here has strongly advised against overtaking long lines of traffic due to possibility of someone pulling out on you having not allowed for such a manoeuvre.
My view is that is it Ok, and in fact inevitable that you might have to make your own gap (depending on how you define ‘make’), certainly to the extent that the overtaken car may need to adjust their speed.
In certain circumstances I am happy to overtake multiple cars but am extra cautious throughout. There are many roads that are single carriageways but extremely wide, where traffic generally hugs the left. Also there are three lane carriageways (two way centre lane) so is also feasible.
SOL111 said:
It's precisely people prioritising their own progress over everything else that causes problems IMO.
I don’t think you are right with this statement (or at least not in the way you intended). People might have all sorts of reasons for wanting to travel faster than others, and it is only really in the realm of cars and light vans where the ‘others’ take exception to that. You don’t see runners, cyclists, motorcyclists or heavy lorries desperately trying to avoid being passed.They might well latch on to the overtaker after the pass to improve their own progress - but there is not necessarily anything wrong with that.The point that needs drumming home to large numbers of car drivers is that their progress is completely up to them, but they must not impede the progress of others (whether on purpose or by lack of awareness).
If the overtaking vehicle ended up colliding with the car he was trying to squeeze in front of, who do you think the insurance companies would side with?
Surely it's just common sense/courtesy to only commit to an overtake if you know you can complete it safely without impeding other road users.
Surely it's just common sense/courtesy to only commit to an overtake if you know you can complete it safely without impeding other road users.
Crippo said:
Your comment about times changing is interesting. Why was overtaking a line of traffic in stages acceptable 20 years ago but not anymore? It’s not possible to overtake 10 cars in one go on most Welsh roads so how on earth does one make progress or is overtaking suddenly not the done thing anymore. Your other comment about leaving other drivers with no space....well, I didn’t leave them with no space, if they are driving too close that I have to rob their space whilst overtaking them then tough. It’s not my fault...or again am I expected not to overtake.?
Sorry, poor explication on my part. Overtaking a line of traffic, one crowbar overtake at a time was possibly acceptable 20 years ago. Traffic density has partly put paid to that, as has a dawning realisation that how your driving is perceived by others makes a difference if you are involved in an accident (even if there is no blame to be placed at your feet) a little further down the road.Overtaking is still acceptable (in some places at least - it's fine up here in East Anglia, but I'm no longer so sure about the South East) but it should be done carefully, with consideration and well-executed. Your description and attitude suggests an absence of all three elements. But I've never sat alongside you, so I can't comment on your skills (or potential lack of). However, I suggest you approach a professional for a second opinion (and I'm not talking about the IAM or RoADAR here, but someone like RegLocal or Andy Morrison) and when you go out with them, drive like you normally do.
A final thought to leave you with: the suggested (at least it was 15 years ago when I was still helping scrape viscera off roads and putting survivors behind bars if they'd been naughty) typical reaction time for a surprise hazard was between 0.75 & 1.5 seconds (It's probably more than that these days with the amount of in-car distractions). So by robbing someone of their safety space, you're basically opening yourself up to being the meat in the sandwich when everyone ahead has to brake hard. If you're not leaving that gap then you're going to slam into the back of the vehicle ahead without being able to brake and the vehicle behind is going to do the same to you. Just because it's not happened yet, doesn't mean to say it won't.
Foss62 said:
SOL111 said:
It's precisely people prioritising their own progress over everything else that causes problems IMO.
I don’t think you are right with this statement (or at least not in the way you intended). People might have all sorts of reasons for wanting to travel faster than others, and it is only really in the realm of cars and light vans where the ‘others’ take exception to that. You don’t see runners, cyclists, motorcyclists or heavy lorries desperately trying to avoid being passed.They might well latch on to the overtaker after the pass to improve their own progress - but there is not necessarily anything wrong with that.The point that needs drumming home to large numbers of car drivers is that their progress is completely up to them, but they must not impede the progress of others (whether on purpose or by lack of awareness).
It causes problems and is something I see regularly. Rarely do I see a multiple overtake that doesn't force numerous cars to adjust their course or slow others, hence why I only consider multiple overtakes when I am confident I can overtake the whole lot.
I can't really anticipate pulling out for an overtake before I know where I am going to pull back in. On the standard course they used to talk about a "Gap check" which involved moving to the offside but holding position to see if the overtake is on. Way back in the day when I tried this on the advanced The instructor said on the advanced you should already know. Telepathy was later in course
If other people potentially hold my life in my hands and these days, with dashcams, my licence I am not getting into careless driving territory.
If other people potentially hold my life in my hands and these days, with dashcams, my licence I am not getting into careless driving territory.
I always do all my hard braking in the other lane and before I move over, this means you can slot into a very small gap without worrying the driver behind into having to do a contingency panic brake as you are doing the same speed as them.
Can make your passenger a bit nervous if there is an oncoming car but with practice its much better than diving into a gap as you brake.
Can make your passenger a bit nervous if there is an oncoming car but with practice its much better than diving into a gap as you brake.
StressedDave said:
Crippo said:
Your comment about times changing is interesting. Why was overtaking a line of traffic in stages acceptable 20 years ago but not anymore? It’s not possible to overtake 10 cars in one go on most Welsh roads so how on earth does one make progress or is overtaking suddenly not the done thing anymore. Your other comment about leaving other drivers with no space....well, I didn’t leave them with no space, if they are driving too close that I have to rob their space whilst overtaking them then tough. It’s not my fault...or again am I expected not to overtake.?
Sorry, poor explication on my part. Overtaking a line of traffic, one crowbar overtake at a time was possibly acceptable 20 years ago. Traffic density has partly put paid to that, as has a dawning realisation that how your driving is perceived by others makes a difference if you are involved in an accident (even if there is no blame to be placed at your feet) a little further down the road.Overtaking is still acceptable (in some places at least - it's fine up here in East Anglia, but I'm no longer so sure about the South East) but it should be done carefully, with consideration and well-executed. Your description and attitude suggests an absence of all three elements. But I've never sat alongside you, so I can't comment on your skills (or potential lack of). However, I suggest you approach a professional for a second opinion (and I'm not talking about the IAM or RoADAR here, but someone like RegLocal or Andy Morrison) and when you go out with them, drive like you normally do.
A final thought to leave you with: the suggested (at least it was 15 years ago when I was still helping scrape viscera off roads and putting survivors behind bars if they'd been naughty) typical reaction time for a surprise hazard was between 0.75 & 1.5 seconds (It's probably more than that these days with the amount of in-car distractions). So by robbing someone of their safety space, you're basically opening yourself up to being the meat in the sandwich when everyone ahead has to brake hard. If you're not leaving that gap then you're going to slam into the back of the vehicle ahead without being able to brake and the vehicle behind is going to do the same to you. Just because it's not happened yet, doesn't mean to say it won't.
Crippo said:
StressedDave said:
Crippo said:
Your comment about times changing is interesting. Why was overtaking a line of traffic in stages acceptable 20 years ago but not anymore? It’s not possible to overtake 10 cars in one go on most Welsh roads so how on earth does one make progress or is overtaking suddenly not the done thing anymore. Your other comment about leaving other drivers with no space....well, I didn’t leave them with no space, if they are driving too close that I have to rob their space whilst overtaking them then tough. It’s not my fault...or again am I expected not to overtake.?
Sorry, poor explication on my part. Overtaking a line of traffic, one crowbar overtake at a time was possibly acceptable 20 years ago. Traffic density has partly put paid to that, as has a dawning realisation that how your driving is perceived by others makes a difference if you are involved in an accident (even if there is no blame to be placed at your feet) a little further down the road.Overtaking is still acceptable (in some places at least - it's fine up here in East Anglia, but I'm no longer so sure about the South East) but it should be done carefully, with consideration and well-executed. Your description and attitude suggests an absence of all three elements. But I've never sat alongside you, so I can't comment on your skills (or potential lack of). However, I suggest you approach a professional for a second opinion (and I'm not talking about the IAM or RoADAR here, but someone like RegLocal or Andy Morrison) and when you go out with them, drive like you normally do.
A final thought to leave you with: the suggested (at least it was 15 years ago when I was still helping scrape viscera off roads and putting survivors behind bars if they'd been naughty) typical reaction time for a surprise hazard was between 0.75 & 1.5 seconds (It's probably more than that these days with the amount of in-car distractions). So by robbing someone of their safety space, you're basically opening yourself up to being the meat in the sandwich when everyone ahead has to brake hard. If you're not leaving that gap then you're going to slam into the back of the vehicle ahead without being able to brake and the vehicle behind is going to do the same to you. Just because it's not happened yet, doesn't mean to say it won't.
Forgive but the 'tough' tone in your earlier post may sound 'aggressive arse' like to some in that arena.
Crippo said:
I don’t drive in the South East. I don’t think I’d bother overtaking if the roads are very busy. My experience relates to Countryside A and B roads. Overtaking a line of traffic one or two cars at a time is more difficult than only having a single car in front of you. I understand that. It’s therefore more dangerous. I understand that too. I do it with skill and maximum attention. I factor in the other drivers reactions. I’m not claiming to be an aggressive arse, just questioning why anyone should think times are changing because I absolutely don’t accept that. I’ve been driving for 30 years and if anything traffic has got slower so overtaking is easier.
My experience and view is different from yours. I think things #have# changed in the 40 years I've been driving. Traffic density has increased. Speeds have reduced. Ability to think about driving has decreased. Interest in cooperating has decreased. Aggression and defending your rights has increased. Thus you get long lines of traffic all tagged to the back of the car in front with the inevitable 40 everywhere car at the front of the jam. When I was a young driver in in my lovely Viva in Hants and Dorset, I overtook loads and coming upon a line of 3-5 cars it felt easy to overtake 1 or 2 at a time. I very rarely find that opportunity now.
Out with my friend who was driving the other day. The last of a line of three. A faster car comes up behind and starts to overtake, my mate says oh no you don't matey and closes the gap to the car in front. We then proceeded to have a row which dented our bromance.
Bert
BertBert said:
Crippo said:
I don’t drive in the South East. I don’t think I’d bother overtaking if the roads are very busy. My experience relates to Countryside A and B roads. Overtaking a line of traffic one or two cars at a time is more difficult than only having a single car in front of you. I understand that. It’s therefore more dangerous. I understand that too. I do it with skill and maximum attention. I factor in the other drivers reactions. I’m not claiming to be an aggressive arse, just questioning why anyone should think times are changing because I absolutely don’t accept that. I’ve been driving for 30 years and if anything traffic has got slower so overtaking is easier.
My experience and view is different from yours. I think things #have# changed in the 40 years I've been driving. Traffic density has increased. Speeds have reduced. Ability to think about driving has decreased. Interest in cooperating has decreased. Aggression and defending your rights has increased. Thus you get long lines of traffic all tagged to the back of the car in front with the inevitable 40 everywhere car at the front of the jam. When I was a young driver in in my lovely Viva in Hants and Dorset, I overtook loads and coming upon a line of 3-5 cars it felt easy to overtake 1 or 2 at a time. I very rarely find that opportunity now.
Out with my friend who was driving the other day. The last of a line of three. A faster car comes up behind and starts to overtake, my mate says oh no you don't matey and closes the gap to the car in front. We then proceeded to have a row which dented our bromance.
Bert
keirik said:
T5R+ said:
Followed a car on a well known, winding, single lanes in both directions, A road showing NSL in dry, clear and lightish traffic.
He was pretty smooth through the bends/twists with virtually no use of brakes and making progress.
We caught up with 3 cars doing 50ish and fairly close to each other who slowed and braked at virtually every bend.
Vehicle in front of me left sufficient room for a period of time and a few miles. Then he proceeded to indicate and pass the vehicle in front of him BUT had to brake and slot in - it was pretty clear that he could not pass all three in one move. He then proceeded to "pick off" the 2nd and subsequently the 3rd car ie pass, brake, slot in. Naturally, this caused the overtakee to "panic" brake.
I am torn as to who is "wrong". The guy who was ovetaking and "forcing" others to make room for him to slot in or the 3 who left virtually no room for others to pass yet would not themselves overtake.
(Chap did not seem like a hooligan, was in a run of the mill 4 door saloon, abiding by speed limits, using indicators, etc)
I don't think that's natural, that's lack of awareness of the overtakee. If you're being overtaken you should expect the overtaker to need to move back in, if there isn't a gap they should make one, if there isn't a gap they're too close to the car in front anywayHe was pretty smooth through the bends/twists with virtually no use of brakes and making progress.
We caught up with 3 cars doing 50ish and fairly close to each other who slowed and braked at virtually every bend.
Vehicle in front of me left sufficient room for a period of time and a few miles. Then he proceeded to indicate and pass the vehicle in front of him BUT had to brake and slot in - it was pretty clear that he could not pass all three in one move. He then proceeded to "pick off" the 2nd and subsequently the 3rd car ie pass, brake, slot in. Naturally, this caused the overtakee to "panic" brake.
I am torn as to who is "wrong". The guy who was ovetaking and "forcing" others to make room for him to slot in or the 3 who left virtually no room for others to pass yet would not themselves overtake.
(Chap did not seem like a hooligan, was in a run of the mill 4 door saloon, abiding by speed limits, using indicators, etc)
Personally I think if you can't overtake the entire queue in one go then don't overtake at all. It creates danger, disrupts the flow of everyone around you and rarely gains you any meaningful time
We know the rule book says don't overtake unless you've got a gap, but we'd never get anywhere if we stuck to that.
It's one of those rules I consciously break all the time.
Advanced Driving is about planning. In this case, planning which gap you're aiming for. But if there isn't a gap, and your plan includes forcing a gap, that's still planning!
If the overtakee refuses to yield, or closes a gap on you, planning to jump on the brakes and abort completely is STILL planning.
It's one of those rules I consciously break all the time.
Advanced Driving is about planning. In this case, planning which gap you're aiming for. But if there isn't a gap, and your plan includes forcing a gap, that's still planning!
If the overtakee refuses to yield, or closes a gap on you, planning to jump on the brakes and abort completely is STILL planning.
Graveworm said:
Yet I am pretty sure plenty of people who do "stick to that" can get still get to places quicker than those who don't.
Of course. All advanced drivers who stick to the doctrine are driving gods who can arrive anywhere before they've even set off, while those who take the skills they've learned and dare to apply them to the real world are a dangerous menace and should be hauled from their Subarus and have their IAM lapel pins ripped from their hoodies.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff