Why is A Road Overtaking a Problem?
Discussion
Lots of helpful replies on this thread.
In somewhere like the Highlands where there tends to plenty of safe overtaking opportunities, if there is a snail trail, it is usually the fault of the second vehicle in the line for not passing the slow vehicle. Although it is always possible that the lead vehicle has been swerving and obstructing.
Once there is a line of vehicles in a trail it becomes very difficult to overtake, due to all the reasons already mentioned.
I have nearly come unstuck a couple of times for another reason, not so far mentioned.
As I have been alongside the second vehicle and intending to slot in, the lead driver has seen me in their mirrors, seen oncoming traffic, presumed that I am attempting to overtake them and jammed on the brakes to help me. When this happens, it delays the overtaking car from moving back over to the left as the second car (now third) will also need to brake to keep the space available behind the lead car.
Honestly, there was once when the leading car, doing 40 mph, braked hard...and it made it a very tight for me to slot back in with an HGV approaching. Not too pleasant. Once we had settled, the trail was down to 20mph and the lead driver was so fixed on the rear view mirror that the car wandered two wheels into the verge and the driver nearly lost control of the car. Thankfully I was able to overtake again immediately and let the snail trail carry on in peace.
Through these experiences I have learnt, once alongside the vehicle I am overtaking, to indicate left so everyone can see (hopefully) that I intend to return to the left side after the first overtake.
In somewhere like the Highlands where there tends to plenty of safe overtaking opportunities, if there is a snail trail, it is usually the fault of the second vehicle in the line for not passing the slow vehicle. Although it is always possible that the lead vehicle has been swerving and obstructing.
Once there is a line of vehicles in a trail it becomes very difficult to overtake, due to all the reasons already mentioned.
I have nearly come unstuck a couple of times for another reason, not so far mentioned.
As I have been alongside the second vehicle and intending to slot in, the lead driver has seen me in their mirrors, seen oncoming traffic, presumed that I am attempting to overtake them and jammed on the brakes to help me. When this happens, it delays the overtaking car from moving back over to the left as the second car (now third) will also need to brake to keep the space available behind the lead car.
Honestly, there was once when the leading car, doing 40 mph, braked hard...and it made it a very tight for me to slot back in with an HGV approaching. Not too pleasant. Once we had settled, the trail was down to 20mph and the lead driver was so fixed on the rear view mirror that the car wandered two wheels into the verge and the driver nearly lost control of the car. Thankfully I was able to overtake again immediately and let the snail trail carry on in peace.
Through these experiences I have learnt, once alongside the vehicle I am overtaking, to indicate left so everyone can see (hopefully) that I intend to return to the left side after the first overtake.
courty said:
Lots of helpful replies on this thread.
In somewhere like the Highlands where there tends to plenty of safe overtaking opportunities, if there is a snail trail, it is usually the fault of the second vehicle in the line for not passing the slow vehicle. Although it is always possible that the lead vehicle has been swerving and obstructing.
Once there is a line of vehicles in a trail it becomes very difficult to overtake, due to all the reasons already mentioned.
I have nearly come unstuck a couple of times for another reason, not so far mentioned.
As I have been alongside the second vehicle and intending to slot in, the lead driver has seen me in their mirrors, seen oncoming traffic, presumed that I am attempting to overtake them and jammed on the brakes to help me. When this happens, it delays the overtaking car from moving back over to the left as the second car (now third) will also need to brake to keep the space available behind the lead car.
Honestly, there was once when the leading car, doing 40 mph, braked hard...and it made it a very tight for me to slot back in with an HGV approaching. Not too pleasant. Once we had settled, the trail was down to 20mph and the lead driver was so fixed on the rear view mirror that the car wandered two wheels into the verge and the driver nearly lost control of the car. Thankfully I was able to overtake again immediately and let the snail trail carry on in peace.
Through these experiences I have learnt, once alongside the vehicle I am overtaking, to indicate left so everyone can see (hopefully) that I intend to return to the left side after the first overtake.
That has only happened to me once and given I was indicating left and already half way across into the left lane when he braked I have no idea at all what was going on in his head. Overtaking the lead was never on anyway, fortunately the gap I had to move into was large, probably around 4 seconds, so I wasn't that close when he braked and the car I had passed had plenty of time to react too. In somewhere like the Highlands where there tends to plenty of safe overtaking opportunities, if there is a snail trail, it is usually the fault of the second vehicle in the line for not passing the slow vehicle. Although it is always possible that the lead vehicle has been swerving and obstructing.
Once there is a line of vehicles in a trail it becomes very difficult to overtake, due to all the reasons already mentioned.
I have nearly come unstuck a couple of times for another reason, not so far mentioned.
As I have been alongside the second vehicle and intending to slot in, the lead driver has seen me in their mirrors, seen oncoming traffic, presumed that I am attempting to overtake them and jammed on the brakes to help me. When this happens, it delays the overtaking car from moving back over to the left as the second car (now third) will also need to brake to keep the space available behind the lead car.
Honestly, there was once when the leading car, doing 40 mph, braked hard...and it made it a very tight for me to slot back in with an HGV approaching. Not too pleasant. Once we had settled, the trail was down to 20mph and the lead driver was so fixed on the rear view mirror that the car wandered two wheels into the verge and the driver nearly lost control of the car. Thankfully I was able to overtake again immediately and let the snail trail carry on in peace.
Through these experiences I have learnt, once alongside the vehicle I am overtaking, to indicate left so everyone can see (hopefully) that I intend to return to the left side after the first overtake.
I tend to meet the same useless drivers each morning so need to change the time I go to work, absolute muppets half the drivers out there
can’t overtake.... anything
40-50mph tops
see a cyclist.... complete panic, queue massive panic of cars behind with brake lights flashing when a simple indicator and overtake is all that is required
bus or large vehicles stopped in a village? wait behind it 5cm from its bumper and come to a complete stop, again queue large volumes of traffic, many trying to navigate said idiots not overtaking
half of these people should not be driving at all as it seems they are ill equipped to drive on public roads and should be pulled for not driving with due care and attention.
its fine having a fast car that can overtake idiots but there should be no need to be doing these manoeuvre’s if these Sunday drivers actually drove on a bit, not everyone wants to drive at 40mph - I can forgive learner drivers or people driving small cars but many of these idiots are driving large cars
can’t overtake.... anything
40-50mph tops
see a cyclist.... complete panic, queue massive panic of cars behind with brake lights flashing when a simple indicator and overtake is all that is required
bus or large vehicles stopped in a village? wait behind it 5cm from its bumper and come to a complete stop, again queue large volumes of traffic, many trying to navigate said idiots not overtaking
half of these people should not be driving at all as it seems they are ill equipped to drive on public roads and should be pulled for not driving with due care and attention.
its fine having a fast car that can overtake idiots but there should be no need to be doing these manoeuvre’s if these Sunday drivers actually drove on a bit, not everyone wants to drive at 40mph - I can forgive learner drivers or people driving small cars but many of these idiots are driving large cars
Pericoloso said:
I've just spent 3 weeks in Italy ,I've never seen so many dodgy overtakes but no one got angry about it.
Just a normal occurrence ,overtaking is their national sport.
You should try Romania...when I was there is 2007 there Euro routes were all single carriageway, filled with a concoction of horses and carts, old Renault 12 Dacias which may or may not be in motion, HGVs and new rich Merc 4x4s X5's pressing on regardless. One soon learnt the locals expected to face oncoming traffic and take avoiding action as required as par for the course.Just a normal occurrence ,overtaking is their national sport.
courty said:
Pericoloso said:
I've just spent 3 weeks in Italy ,I've never seen so many dodgy overtakes but no one got angry about it.
Just a normal occurrence ,overtaking is their national sport.
You should try Romania...when I was there is 2007 there Euro routes were all single carriageway, filled with a concoction of horses and carts, old Renault 12 Dacias which may or may not be in motion, HGVs and new rich Merc 4x4s X5's pressing on regardless. One soon learnt the locals expected to face oncoming traffic and take avoiding action as required as par for the course.Just a normal occurrence ,overtaking is their national sport.
Paynewright said:
I dont get it either - if I dont want to overtake I always leave a safe gap for someone to pull into. If someone overtakes me I’ll momentarily ease off the throttle to aid their safe progress.
Accelerating, leaving no gap, closing a gap and aggressive attitude if you’re being overtaken is totally unacceptable.
Well exactly, yet what would yank my chain if I let it, is when you see the dick move coming up on the outside, ease off to make space in front so they can get back in due to oncoming, say, but they then decide to ignore the space you've made and risk a coming together by going for 'just one more' into a space that doesn't exist. Person ahead now has to brake hard which can then in extreme cases cause a ripple back down the line.Accelerating, leaving no gap, closing a gap and aggressive attitude if you’re being overtaken is totally unacceptable.
Superleg48 said:
Of course, the correct way to execute a number of single vehicle overtakes in one pass, is to drop at least two gears, to ensure a loud, aggressive engine note and then to pass whilst sounding your horn repeatedly, flashing your lights manically and gesticulating wildly to each driver as you pass. You should also do this ideally in a BMW.
Will have to remember the flashing / horn / gesticulating points. Despite doing all of the other things mentioned above still ended up in exactly the same situation last year as pica-pica described earlier in the thread!
courty said:
Honestly, there was once when the leading car, doing 40 mph, braked hard...and it made it a very tight for me to slot back in with an HGV approaching. Not too pleasant. Once we had settled, the trail was down to 20mph and the lead driver was so fixed on the rear view mirror that the car wandered two wheels into the verge and the driver nearly lost control of the car. Thankfully I was able to overtake again immediately and let the snail trail carry on in peace.
Squeaky bum time... 
If only these pillocks would just maintain course and speed per Rule 168 there wouldn't be a problem.
Multi car overtakes are challenging - if an overtake is potentially the most complicated and dangerous manoeuvre we do in a car then multi car overtakes are at the spikey end of that chart!
There really should only be two approaches, both of which have risk:
Overtake the lot - main risk is someone further up the line coming out
Land somewhere in the queue - more risks because while you might start with a landing spot the queue is dynamic and it can vanish - def. the most risky thing you can do as you are very dependent on others...
Mitigation of risk comes from a number of things some of which are calm careful and planned and others which might help when it starts to unravel
- treat every car as a separate overtake - put in a microscopic pause after each where you decide to finish or continue, that way you embed safety into the move but also you are refreshing your options continually. This is perhaps the most important approach - to assume that once you have started you will have the same scenario past several cars is risky, this minimises the risk
- have contingency for each car - can you pull in after them, is there an ability to cancel and move back in, what are your options
- look for emergency solutions - is there a layby you could use even on the other side of the road, could you use your lights or horn to increase awareness that you are there... etc
Ultimately a multi-car overtake is dangerous and complex - most of the issues though come because the overtaking car sees it as one overtake rather than appreciating the complexity and handling it in that component by component way...
There really should only be two approaches, both of which have risk:
Overtake the lot - main risk is someone further up the line coming out
Land somewhere in the queue - more risks because while you might start with a landing spot the queue is dynamic and it can vanish - def. the most risky thing you can do as you are very dependent on others...
Mitigation of risk comes from a number of things some of which are calm careful and planned and others which might help when it starts to unravel
- treat every car as a separate overtake - put in a microscopic pause after each where you decide to finish or continue, that way you embed safety into the move but also you are refreshing your options continually. This is perhaps the most important approach - to assume that once you have started you will have the same scenario past several cars is risky, this minimises the risk
- have contingency for each car - can you pull in after them, is there an ability to cancel and move back in, what are your options
- look for emergency solutions - is there a layby you could use even on the other side of the road, could you use your lights or horn to increase awareness that you are there... etc
Ultimately a multi-car overtake is dangerous and complex - most of the issues though come because the overtaking car sees it as one overtake rather than appreciating the complexity and handling it in that component by component way...
reglard said:
In the Highlands of Scotland recently wanting to press on and meet the ferry to the Hebrides, a long line of cars doing 40 nice wide national speed limit roads good weather. So start overtakes to get to the camper up front nobody wants to overtake, did not cross solid lines oncoming traffic miles away, want to break line up so can get to the front people start closing gaps or flashing. Are we all expected to sit behind the slowest drivers these days?
Did nothing wrong.Most modern drivers are muppets. Why sit close bhind the vehicle in front of you if you are not trying to overtake it?
ericmcn said:
I tend to meet the same useless drivers each morning so need to change the time I go to work, absolute muppets half the drivers out there
can’t overtake.... anything
40-50mph tops
see a cyclist.... complete panic, queue massive panic of cars behind with brake lights flashing when a simple indicator and overtake is all that is required
bus or large vehicles stopped in a village? wait behind it 5cm from its bumper and come to a complete stop, again queue large volumes of traffic, many trying to navigate said idiots not overtaking
half of these people should not be driving at all as it seems they are ill equipped to drive on public roads and should be pulled for not driving with due care and attention.
its fine having a fast car that can overtake idiots but there should be no need to be doing these manoeuvre’s if these Sunday drivers actually drove on a bit, not everyone wants to drive at 40mph - I can forgive learner drivers or people driving small cars but many of these idiots are driving large cars
A mirror image of my journey. This week has been particularly bad with the crappy weather. Had a driver yesterday driving at 20 mph. At a t junction I beeped the horn as they missed 4 opportunities to go. They did eventually, however this one did have the sense to pull over & let me go which was refreshing.can’t overtake.... anything
40-50mph tops
see a cyclist.... complete panic, queue massive panic of cars behind with brake lights flashing when a simple indicator and overtake is all that is required
bus or large vehicles stopped in a village? wait behind it 5cm from its bumper and come to a complete stop, again queue large volumes of traffic, many trying to navigate said idiots not overtaking
half of these people should not be driving at all as it seems they are ill equipped to drive on public roads and should be pulled for not driving with due care and attention.
its fine having a fast car that can overtake idiots but there should be no need to be doing these manoeuvre’s if these Sunday drivers actually drove on a bit, not everyone wants to drive at 40mph - I can forgive learner drivers or people driving small cars but many of these idiots are driving large cars
Overtaking, slightly off topic.
Going down slip road, car in front 55 ish, beema behind me. As we join the dual carriageway, plenty of room between me and the beema, mirror check, indicate move into L2 to pass car in L1, as I thought, beema did the same, and started tooting and flashing because I dared to pull out before him. twunt.
I continued to 70, the beema dissapeared behind me, god give me strength. I always give the car in front in that the situation the benifit of doubt they will pull out to pass the slower car.
Going down slip road, car in front 55 ish, beema behind me. As we join the dual carriageway, plenty of room between me and the beema, mirror check, indicate move into L2 to pass car in L1, as I thought, beema did the same, and started tooting and flashing because I dared to pull out before him. twunt.
I continued to 70, the beema dissapeared behind me, god give me strength. I always give the car in front in that the situation the benifit of doubt they will pull out to pass the slower car.
Vipers said:
Overtaking, slightly off topic.
Going down slip road, car in front 55 ish, beema behind me. As we join the dual carriageway, plenty of room between me and the beema, mirror check, indicate move into L2 to pass car in L1, as I thought, beema did the same, and started tooting and flashing because I dared to pull out before him. twunt.
I continued to 70, the beema dissapeared behind me, god give me strength. I always give the car in front in that the situation the benifit of doubt they will pull out to pass the slower car.
I could (sort of) understand it if the BMW moved into L2 first and was about to overtake you before you moved out in front of him, but I cant understand why he’d be peeved if he’s followed you into L2Going down slip road, car in front 55 ish, beema behind me. As we join the dual carriageway, plenty of room between me and the beema, mirror check, indicate move into L2 to pass car in L1, as I thought, beema did the same, and started tooting and flashing because I dared to pull out before him. twunt.
I continued to 70, the beema dissapeared behind me, god give me strength. I always give the car in front in that the situation the benifit of doubt they will pull out to pass the slower car.
Mattylamb said:
Coin Slot. said:
I've seen too many head-ons from peoples dashcams so I'm more than happy to sit in a slow moving queue, but I will not impede anyone who wants to pass me and slot in front so they can make the next pass safely.
if you know how to overtake, that would not be an issue!Last week on A59, longish line of 45-50 mph traffic, overtook the range rover in front only to have him accelerate to close the gap as I began to pull back in.
Why do people do that !!
Edited by Gary C on Saturday 16th November 16:49
Mattylamb said:
Did nothing wrong.
Most modern drivers are muppets. Why sit close bhind the vehicle in front of you if you are not trying to overtake it?
My favourite overtake was in my wife’s Fabia 1.2. I was behind a BMW (I say that as an owner), which in turn was sitting close behind a lorry, on a single carriageway (one lane each way). As we approached an uphill, I hung back to see up the inside on the slow left hander, and clocked the road ahead was clear. Down into third, pulled out to check any upcoming junctions on the right or intermediate vehicles, indicated for a pass, and went. Beautiful.Most modern drivers are muppets. Why sit close bhind the vehicle in front of you if you are not trying to overtake it?
Countdown said:
Vipers said:
Overtaking, slightly off topic.
Going down slip road, car in front 55 ish, beema behind me. As we join the dual carriageway, plenty of room between me and the beema, mirror check, indicate move into L2 to pass car in L1, as I thought, beema did the same, and started tooting and flashing because I dared to pull out before him. twunt.
I continued to 70, the beema dissapeared behind me, god give me strength. I always give the car in front in that the situation the benifit of doubt they will pull out to pass the slower car.
I could (sort of) understand it if the BMW moved into L2 first and was about to overtake you before you moved out in front of him, but I cant understand why he’d be peeved if he’s followed you into L2Going down slip road, car in front 55 ish, beema behind me. As we join the dual carriageway, plenty of room between me and the beema, mirror check, indicate move into L2 to pass car in L1, as I thought, beema did the same, and started tooting and flashing because I dared to pull out before him. twunt.
I continued to 70, the beema dissapeared behind me, god give me strength. I always give the car in front in that the situation the benifit of doubt they will pull out to pass the slower car.
After driving many standard not-hot hatches, MPVs and repmobiles, I was in the fortunate position to buy a second hand Porsche 911 a few years ago. On the subject of overtaking I have a couple of observations:
1: It is much much much easier, safer and less stressful to overtake in a very fast car. Less need to “build momentum”, more like following the Roadcraft approach, i.e. move over, blip the throttle, and you’re past. Also there are many more opportunities to overtake, I.e. you don’t need as long a straight (whilst also being aware there might be another 911 coming around the next corner in the opposite direction), so less temptation to go for “marginal” overtakes.
2: Very surprisingly, people do not seem to mind being overtaken by a 911. Not at all. I thought I’d see all manner of light flashing and hand waving (anyone who overtakes will know what I mean), but no, not a sausage. My theory is that people don’t generally like being overtaken, since they consider it a bit like queue jumping, or see it as a bit competitive, i.e. totally unreasonable behaviour. However, when they see a sport car come flashing past they consider that a different “category” (can’t think of a better word) of car, so give themselves permission to be overtaken, and it doesn’t get their competitive juices flowing.
Might be rubbish, but that’s my observations and theory for what it’s worth.
1: It is much much much easier, safer and less stressful to overtake in a very fast car. Less need to “build momentum”, more like following the Roadcraft approach, i.e. move over, blip the throttle, and you’re past. Also there are many more opportunities to overtake, I.e. you don’t need as long a straight (whilst also being aware there might be another 911 coming around the next corner in the opposite direction), so less temptation to go for “marginal” overtakes.
2: Very surprisingly, people do not seem to mind being overtaken by a 911. Not at all. I thought I’d see all manner of light flashing and hand waving (anyone who overtakes will know what I mean), but no, not a sausage. My theory is that people don’t generally like being overtaken, since they consider it a bit like queue jumping, or see it as a bit competitive, i.e. totally unreasonable behaviour. However, when they see a sport car come flashing past they consider that a different “category” (can’t think of a better word) of car, so give themselves permission to be overtaken, and it doesn’t get their competitive juices flowing.
Might be rubbish, but that’s my observations and theory for what it’s worth.
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