Men and overtaking

[anonymous-user]

Dizeee said:

The most angering thing and annoying thing about this thread, is the amount of you who are indicating to overtake. Even worse if you indicate to pull back in. Uneducated, shoddy and unnecessary. You don't so much as think about your indicator stalks in these circumstances, let alone make contact with them.

Any post with mention of indication is instantly disregarded, and placed in the same pile as those who fist shake and flash their lights whilst being overtaken at 20mph beneath the speed limit.

Terrible!

Don't indicate ? Isn't this just standard advice for Audi and BMW drivers ?

[otolith]

focusxr5 said:

What an odd and overly irate comment. For balance, on both my Police standard and Advanced driving course I was always taught to have right hand indication on throughout any overtake, some of which involved getting past long strings of vehicles. Any well executed overtake should be calm and well thought through, not a panicked ditch attempt to get past someone. A flick of the indicator isn't exactly using too many faculties in the grand scheme of things and if you're driving so hard that you don't have time to reach out one finger to flick a stalk up, then I would suggest you should really reign it in a bit.

You mean your omniscience does not extend to knowing not only everybody in the area who might benefit from a signal but also whether they understand what you plan to do or not? You'll never get a framed Guild of Expert Wheelshufflers Platinum Jedi Mind Power Certificate (with lapel badge and epaulettes) with that attitude.

[waremark]

Dizeee said:

The most angering thing and annoying thing about this thread, is the amount of you who are indicating to overtake. Even worse if you indicate to pull back in. Uneducated, shoddy and unnecessary. You don't so much as think about your indicator stalks in these circumstances, let alone make contact with them.

Any post with mention of indication is instantly disregarded, and placed in the same pile as those who fist shake and flash their lights whilst being overtaken at 20mph beneath the speed limit.

Terrible!

Was that a deliberate wind up? Indicating to start, continue or complete an overtake may be helpful to other road users in some circumstances. Why the prejudice against it?

[nonsequitur]

Solocle said:

In a car, I'm far more relaxed about giving courtesy signals.

I would argue that In this discussion, more of a 'must do' than a courtesy.

[Dizeee]

focusxr5 said:

What an odd and overly irate comment. For balance, on both my Police standard and Advanced driving course I was always taught to have right hand indication on throughout any overtake,

Even more shocking, In which case, you were taught incorrectly or a long, long time ago. What decade did you achieve these courses? They are certainly not advocated or taught now.

The mind-set and concentration required to effectively and safely overtake means you should be focussing soley on the road ahead, anticipating the reaction of other road users, potential for conflict coming from behind, and any potential hazards that present themselves ahead. There is no requirement to use additional brain capacity to be worrying about an indication, or getting caught up in signal clutter.

Indicating is unnecessary in itself. It will be obvious to those around you what you are doing, by way of your physical positioning. It does not need re-enforcing with an indication, just as going straight on doesn't need you to point out the window with you arm that you are going straight on. If there is one occasion where a signal may benefit, possibly it would be in a queue scenario where people are taking it in turns to overtake slow movers such as a tractor, and the overtakes are stop start owing to oncoming traffic or other hazards.

It is just the same as mindless indicating when there is nobody to benefit from it. Less "auto pilot" mindless indication, and more reactions that demonstrate a proper awareness of what is around you. Someone to benefit? Then indicate. Nobody to benefit, then reduce your arm movements, reduce the signal clutter and demonstrate the fact your aware of what is around you.

I am still shuddering at the thought of you being taught on a police driving course to indicate when overtaking. This couldn't have been anywhere near London or the home counties, or this side of the millennium.

[anonymous-user]

Dizeee said:

focusxr5 said:

What an odd and overly irate comment. For balance, on both my Police standard and Advanced driving course I was always taught to have right hand indication on throughout any overtake,

Even more shocking, In which case, you were taught incorrectly or a long, long time ago. What decade did you achieve these courses? They are certainly not advocated or taught now.

The mind-set and concentration required to effectively and safely overtake means you should be focussing soley on the road ahead, anticipating the reaction of other road users, potential for conflict coming from behind, and any potential hazards that present themselves ahead. There is no requirement to use additional brain capacity to be worrying about an indication, or getting caught up in signal clutter.

Indicating is unnecessary in itself. It will be obvious to those around you what you are doing, by way of your physical positioning. It does not need re-enforcing with an indication, just as going straight on doesn't need you to point out the window with you arm that you are going straight on. If there is one occasion where a signal may benefit, possibly it would be in a queue scenario where people are taking it in turns to overtake slow movers such as a tractor, and the overtakes are stop start owing to oncoming traffic or other hazards.

It is just the same as mindless indicating when there is nobody to benefit from it. Less "auto pilot" mindless indication, and more reactions that demonstrate a proper awareness of what is around you. Someone to benefit? Then indicate. Nobody to benefit, then reduce your arm movements, reduce the signal clutter and demonstrate the fact your aware of what is around you.

I am still shuddering at the thought of you being taught on a police driving course to indicate when overtaking. This couldn't have been anywhere near London or the home counties, or this side of the millennium.

Doesn't the Highway code say M-S-M ? Unless you drive a BMW of course.

Look, there's even a nice picture with an indicator on :

[Dizeee]

The highway code says lots of things, but it doesn't mean they are all taught on police driving courses.

[nonsequitur]

Dizeee said:

Indicating is unnecessary in itself. It will be obvious to those around you what you are doing, by way of your physical positioning. It does not need re-enforcing with an indication,.

As we all know all too well on PH, there are some terrible clunkers out there on the highways.

So, sorry Dizeee, nothing at all is ever obvious where driving is concerned.

[Dizeee]

True but your planning will not involve, or shouldn't involve, anyone else to take part in the manoeuvre or get involved with what your doing. Its a decision for you and you alone, and the less information that may cause an adverse reaction, the less influence there is when you carry out the manoeuvre.

If I am moving out to an overtake position, I actively monitor my existing return gap, parallel to where I have moved out. Any sign of it being nibbled when I have not yet fully committed and I'm straight back in. I don't want to indicate, and encourage the car behind to move up sooner than I am prepared for, and once I have gone it becomes irrelevant anyway. So it is a pointless signal.

If you overtake properly form the overtake position, this all seems logical. If you momentum overtake before having a full and proper view of the road ahead as I suspect many "indicating overtakers" do on here, then I rest my case.

[Countdown]

Dizeee said:

True but your planning will not involve, or shouldn't involve, anyone else to take part in the manoeuvre or get involved with what your doing. Its a decision for you and you alone, and the less information that may cause an adverse reaction, the less influence there is when you carry out the manoeuvre.

If I am moving out to an overtake position, I actively monitor my existing return gap, parallel to where I have moved out. Any sign of it being nibbled when I have not yet fully committed and I'm straight back in. I don't want to indicate, and encourage the car behind to move up sooner than I am prepared for, and once I have gone it becomes irrelevant anyway. So it is a pointless signal.

If you overtake properly form the overtake position, this all seems logical. If you momentum overtake before having a full and proper view of the road ahead as I suspect many "indicating overtakers" do on here, then I rest my case.

How about letting the guy behind you know that you're about to overtake, or other road users who might be affected?

[RobM77]

Crumbs. I didn't reply because I thought Dizee was just teasing us. Of course you need to indicate when you're about to overtake someone.

Just off the top of my head:

• If you're doing a multiple car overtake, obviously you need to let the cars in front know that you're thinking of coming out to pass them, because they themselves might be about to pass the slow vehicle at the head of the queue. There are lots of accidents on You Tube involving this scenario.

• You need to inform cars behind you that you're about to overtake, because they might be lining up for an overtake. This applies both to cars following you, but also to approaching cars who may be planning on continuing at a higher speed past everyone.

In addition to the above, there are many unseen road user or unforeseen scenarios that affect overtaking:

• The classic is someone turning left out of a junction up ahead. Yes, I know you shouldn't overtake on a junction, but frequently entrances to private property, fields etc are obscured by long grass and are not signed or given hazard lines. If that driver looks left (not all do!) and they see your indicator, they won't pull out - accident avoided.

• Similar to the point above, a runner, horse rider, pedestrian, mountain biker etc, may be waiting to join the road you're on and need to know what you're about to do. A car on the other side of the road won't stop such a person pulling out, but if that car is about to come over to their side of the road it will.

• Motorbikes have a habit of hanging in your blind spot, and they normally have the performance to overtake as soon as there's an opportunity. If your observation isn't perfect, your indicator could save a biker's life.

• The vehicle you're overtaking may have to move out. This may be to go round a fallen tree, branch, pot hole, an unseen runner etc. It may just be that they're turning right up ahead into a hidden junction (this might be why they're driving slowly, because they're looking for a hard to spot junction?..). I often get this when towing my trailer down country roads - the trailer has no suspension so I try to avoid pot holes, and I need to know if the car behind me is overtaking, because if they are I need to give them all the room I can, rather than avoiding a pot hole.

[markyb_lcy]

Countdown said:

How about letting the guy behind you know that you're about to overtake, or other road users who might be affected?

Exactly what I was thinking.

What if they are also planning an overtake at the same time? The signal lets them know your intention, before they act. This could well avoid an accident.

[Red 5]

RobM77 said:

Crumbs. I didn't reply because I thought Dizee was just teasing us. Of course you need to indicate when you're about to overtake someone.

Just off the top of my head:

• If you're doing a multiple car overtake, obviously you need to let the cars in front know that you're thinking of coming out to pass them, because they themselves might be about to pass the slow vehicle at the head of the queue. There are lots of accidents on You Tube involving this scenario.

• You need to inform cars behind you that you're about to overtake, because they might be lining up for an overtake. This applies both to cars following you, but also to approaching cars who may be planning on continuing at a higher speed past everyone.

In addition to the above, there are many unseen road user or unforeseen scenarios that affect overtaking:

• The classic is someone turning left out of a junction up ahead. Yes, I know you shouldn't overtake on a junction, but frequently entrances to private property, fields etc are obscured by long grass and are not signed or given hazard lines. If that driver looks left (not all do!) and they see your indicator, they won't pull out - accident avoided.

• Similar to the point above, a runner, horse rider, pedestrian, mountain biker etc, may be waiting to join the road you're on and need to know what you're about to do. A car on the other side of the road won't stop such a person pulling out, but if that car is about to come over to their side of the road it will.

• Motorbikes have a habit of hanging in your blind spot, and they normally have the performance to overtake as soon as there's an opportunity. If your observation isn't perfect, your indicator could save a biker's life.

• The vehicle you're overtaking may have to move out. This may be to go round a fallen tree, branch, pot hole, an unseen runner etc. It may just be that they're turning right up ahead into a hidden junction (this might be why they're driving slowly, because they're looking for a hard to spot junction?..). I often get this when towing my trailer down country roads - the trailer has no suspension so I try to avoid pot holes, and I need to know if the car behind me is overtaking, because if they are I need to give them all the room I can, rather than avoiding a pot hole.

Agreed.

More visual information and more awareness help others make better, safer decisions.

I would not normally indicate back in after a pass, as somebody hidden as you’ve described above, might take a quick glance and think the car approaching (you) are turning left!
In actual fact, you’re traveling fast and possibly still accelerating.

I’d indicate left to return to the near side, only if I was moving up a line of other traffic. I want to let the car I’ve most recently passed, know that I’m moving back.
They may wish to adjust their road position or following distance. I’ve also always considered it polite

[Bucksspeedyboy]

Blimey, after reading this thread I never knew there was so much to overtaking! In 40+ years of driving I just overtake when necessary and I don’t think I’ve ever had anyone reacting with the flashing lights/ waving arms, etc, that have been reported here. I also don’t do involved calculations of when and how to overtake, I just do it.

As for signalling on overtakes, I only do that when necessary in cases where the driver may not be aware or you’re overtaking more than one vehicle at a time. As for indicating to come back in -what a waste of time. What do you expect the overtaken driver to do, suddenly speed up and stop you coming in? Makes me laugh when I’m on my bike and a car goes past me then indicates to come back in again about 50 yards in front - what do they think I’m going to, suddenly pedal hard and accelerate from 15 mph to 40 mph+?

[DocSteve]

RobM77 said:

Crumbs. I didn't reply because I thought Dizee was just teasing us. Of course you need to indicate when you're about to overtake someone.

Just off the top of my head:

• If you're doing a multiple car overtake, obviously you need to let the cars in front know that you're thinking of coming out to pass them, because they themselves might be about to pass the slow vehicle at the head of the queue. There are lots of accidents on You Tube involving this scenario.

• You need to inform cars behind you that you're about to overtake, because they might be lining up for an overtake. This applies both to cars following you, but also to approaching cars who may be planning on continuing at a higher speed past everyone.

In addition to the above, there are many unseen road user or unforeseen scenarios that affect overtaking:

• The classic is someone turning left out of a junction up ahead. Yes, I know you shouldn't overtake on a junction, but frequently entrances to private property, fields etc are obscured by long grass and are not signed or given hazard lines. If that driver looks left (not all do!) and they see your indicator, they won't pull out - accident avoided.

• Similar to the point above, a runner, horse rider, pedestrian, mountain biker etc, may be waiting to join the road you're on and need to know what you're about to do. A car on the other side of the road won't stop such a person pulling out, but if that car is about to come over to their side of the road it will.

• Motorbikes have a habit of hanging in your blind spot, and they normally have the performance to overtake as soon as there's an opportunity. If your observation isn't perfect, your indicator could save a biker's life.

• The vehicle you're overtaking may have to move out. This may be to go round a fallen tree, branch, pot hole, an unseen runner etc. It may just be that they're turning right up ahead into a hidden junction (this might be why they're driving slowly, because they're looking for a hard to spot junction?..). I often get this when towing my trailer down country roads - the trailer has no suspension so I try to avoid pot holes, and I need to know if the car behind me is overtaking, because if they are I need to give them all the room I can, rather than avoiding a pot hole.

This.I also thought it was a wind up but seemingly not.

Of course, indicating where unnecessary due to "autopilot" mode and/or to mitigate observation deficiencies is not to be condoned but when overtaking this is rarely relevant in my view. Often, on smaller roads use of the horn is also something that will alert. This has to be used sensibly of course. The first time I was convinced about this was with John Lyon when he was doing a demo drive in my M5, We were on a relatively narrow B road and came across a local bus. Passing was possible but only if the bus driver complied; John sounded the horn and indicated, the bus driver then clearly held a nearside position and we passed perfectly safely with a wave of thanks.

Dizee, are you sure you are not winding us up??

[RobM77]

Bucksspeedyboy said:

What do you expect the overtaken driver to do, suddenly speed up and stop you coming in? Makes me laugh when I’m on my bike and a car goes past me then indicates to come back in again about 50 yards in front - what do they think I’m going to, suddenly pedal hard and accelerate from 15 mph to 40 mph+?

This is actually fairly common, especially when overtaking sports cars or bikes, but indicating won’t help as it’s normally a deliberate malicious act. Someone I used to work with was actually taken out by a driver doing this.

[Pica-Pica]

I didn’t get this indicating to pull back in after an overtake, until I moved to Wales where it is even more prevalent, especially on fast single carriageway A-roads. I think the indication is for oncoming traffic and it means something like ‘yes, I have seen you, I have judged that there is time and space to pull back in, so no need to flash me’. I still don’t indicate to pull back in.

[nonsequitur]

Bucksspeedyboy said:

Blimey, after reading this thread I never knew there was so much to overtaking! In 40+ years of driving I just overtake when necessary and I don’t think I’ve ever had anyone reacting with the flashing lights/ waving arms, etc, that have been reported here. I also don’t do involved calculations of when and how to overtake, I just do it.

As for signalling on overtakes, I only do that when necessary in cases where the driver may not be aware or you’re overtaking more than one vehicle at a time. As for indicating to come back in -what a waste of time. What do you expect the overtaken driver to do, suddenly speed up and stop you coming in? Makes me laugh when I’m on my bike and a car goes past me then indicates to come back in again about 50 yards in front - what do they think I’m going to, suddenly pedal hard and accelerate from 15 mph to 40 mph+?

It's just good driving Bucko. The pull back in after an OT is a separate move and requires a signal. Also useful to oncoming that you are moving in after a positive sighting. I would argue that any change of direction requires an indication.

Sorry pica, you had already stated this.

[Dizeee]

DocSteve said:

Dizee, are you sure you are not winding us up??

No, not a wind up. I guess we all do things differently and I can only go by what I have been taught over the years.

There is a lot I don't agree with written above. Overtaking a bus when it is only possible if the bus complies? There shouldn't be an if, but or any form of uncertainty about it. If its on it's on, and if there is any doubt hold back. An M5 overtaking a buss should not require any compliance from a bus driver on a road that is safe and suitable to overtake on.

Indicating in queues of traffic, seriously, how many people look and count off cars "not indicating" behind when pulling out for an overtake... your hazard is the group of cars as a whole and part of your risk assessment is the likelihood of movement judged by position and/or speed of any of them.

Bikers sitting in blind spots, yes they do, but that's why you shoulder check prior to moving out.

Indicating to let others know behind - I have already answered this - it should be obvious and apparent what you are doing by virtue of your positioning.

There may be some infrequent circumstances where an indication may benefit, but these are very infrequent for me. The only time I ever recall doing one is when I was awaiting opportunity for an overtake which I knew was imminent, and in the far distance behind me was a motorbike approaching at speed. I gave 3 flicks of my offside indicator which allowed him to roll off and come to rest behind me, removing the chance of him coming into conflict with my intentions. Had he have carried on then obviously I would have not continued with my intention, but as it turned out, it worked well. He respected my awareness of his presence and intentions, and I respected his response to my signal. This is what taking, using and giving information is all about.

Maybe it's my fault. Whenever I discuss driving it is with progress in mind. It is just inherent in my driving style and has been drummed into me now for over 16 years. There is no need, requirement or time for needless signals when your positioning makes it obvious what you are going to do, and in most circumstances will be off and away within a matter of seconds anyway.

Edited by Dizeee on Saturday 16th May 16:15

[otolith]

Are you happy with people who incorrectly believe that they have the level of competence and continuously infallible observation you believe that you have also deciding that they don’t need to explicitly communicate their intentions?