Thread Crush - Overtake

[M4cruiser]

Armchair_Expert said:

Surprised that it was an IAM riding group that kept coming a cropper - the stigma attached to IAM would put them at the bottom of the pile.

There's always a fair amount of IAM-bashing on Forums like this, the root of it (my opinion of course) is lack of understanding of what the IAM is about.
It's not about speed. It's about safety. "They" (us) will often mention crashes etc, but in the spirit of using them as training aids.
IAM now don't endorse exceeding the speed limit.
IAM have their own premium-AD-course (Fellow) but it's not the same as Police Class 1 for the reasons Armchair_Expert describes, it simply can't be. But it may be the nearest thing a civilian can do, along with the HPC etc.

[waremark]

M4cruiser said:

IAM have their own premium-AD-course (Fellow) ...... But it may be the nearest thing a civilian can do, along with the HPC etc.

Do you mean Masters? - A higher level course and test offered by IAM. 'Fellow' does not have a different course or different test - it indicates a normal test taken every three years.

IAM Masters is a higher level than IAM First (an award for a particularly good drive on a regular IAM test) but it is not on the same level as HPC.

[Pit Pony]

LeoSayer said:

If you don't like the reactions you get from other drivers then stop driving in a way that causes it.

In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.

Many years ago, I was flashed by a guy that I'd just over taken, my initial thoughts were that he was a bit of a wker given it was a NSL B road and he was travelling at 45 mph.
Having over taken him we came to a village where I slowed to the speed limit which at the time was 40 mph, and is now 30 mph.

He caught up with me. I assume he continued to drive at 45 mph in the village that he lived in. Half way through the village, he turned right into a cul de sac. And being a little impetuous, I turned around and went and found him getting out of his car. I asked him, if there was something wrong with my car? Because I assume that's why he flashed me.
No. He flashed me because I was driving dangerously and too fast.

Unfortunately I may then have lost the argument by my choice use of language, but I am pleased I called him a knob womble.

I overtook him a few days later in the same place
(our journeys must have been at regular times) but he didn't flash me.

Maybe he thought I'd beat the crap out of him, as I did have a very short hair cut and probably looked like a thug.

[julian64]

Dr Jekyll said:

Perfectly true, but then the same applied when I've driven with John Lyon and a few other police trained instructors.
It wasn't the way a police trainee using all exemptions would be expected to drive, but it certainly wasn't sticking rigidly to NSL either.
I think some IAM bike groups in particular did have something of a 'speed wall', but tended to treat it as a target. Spending a lot of time at say 90, but no faster. While JL said specifically that he treated non trunk road NSLs as derestricted and occasionally hit 90, very occasionally three figures. That was in a car not a bike, but I was happy with the speed he drove me and he was OK with the somewhat lower speed at which I drove him . While I parted company with an IAM bike group because I wasn't happy with the speed they went round corners, which I suspected was connected with the way every meeting seem to include a reference to whichever member had suffered a single vehicle cornering accident that month.

I ditched any sort of club or drive meeting nearly ten years ago due to the possibility of a joint venture.

[Toltec]

Armchair_Expert said:

Very true, passive and unobtrusive progress is the key.

However, I am still intent on overtaking Mrs Miggins when safe to do so despite whatever ill placed opinion she may form of me. It's not my fault she associates the physical act of overtaking with a beer swigging, tune pumping car of youths.

My dad told me you should try to drive in a way that means other drivers don't even notice you were there.

Not literally not seeing you obviously, more that you didn't make any difference to their journey.

[otolith]

waremark said:

M4cruiser said:

IAM have their own premium-AD-course (Fellow) ...... But it may be the nearest thing a civilian can do, along with the HPC etc.

Do you mean Masters? - A higher level course and test offered by IAM. 'Fellow' does not have a different course or different test - it indicates a normal test taken every three years.

IAM Masters is a higher level than IAM First (an award for a particularly good drive on a regular IAM test) but it is not on the same level as HPC.

Does it come with epaulettes?

And maybe a hat?

[Armchair_Expert]

Toltec said:

My dad told me you should try to drive in a way that means other drivers don't even notice you were there.

Not literally not seeing you obviously, more that you didn't make any difference to their journey.

Yes, very good advice. "Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively".

[M4cruiser]

waremark said:

M4cruiser said:

IAM have their own premium-AD-course (Fellow) ...... But it may be the nearest thing a civilian can do, along with the HPC etc.

Do you mean Masters? - A higher level course and test offered by IAM. 'Fellow' does not have a different course or different test - it indicates a normal test taken every three years.

IAM Masters is a higher level than IAM First (an award for a particularly good drive on a regular IAM test) but it is not on the same level as HPC.

OOps sorry, my mistake, I of course meant Masters.

[DocSteve]

Armchair_Expert said:

Yes, very good advice. "Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively".

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

[julian64]

DocSteve said:

Armchair_Expert said:

Yes, very good advice. "Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively".

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Likely to be taken from a book fifty years ago when very fast cars met very slow cars out on the open road with completely different agenda. Making progress in a fast car with slow cars around you could be done smoothly and without fuss.

Today everyone is in a car with fairly matched ability to accelerate and perform within the speed limit. Someones driving ability means nothing if the cars are closely matched. And to add the last nail to the coffin everyone now uses the speed limit as a target, and above the speed limit comes with fairly onerous penalties for those of us who still work.

So overtake now is not relaxed and slow and without fuss. It is opportune, usually requires tailgating to alert, or by surprise on the dawdling driver, and needs a lot of fuss and flourish to make a car perform significantly better than the other within the speed limit.

Its nice to read books about slow and smooth, or hear stories on forum like this about it, but I wouldn't want to sit in a car with someone slow and smooth because they would be vulnerable to every odd, or weird driver on the road who hated their breakfast, or wife and was driving a shopping trolley still capable of a 5 second 0-60.

[Dr Jekyll]

julian64 said:

DocSteve said:

Armchair_Expert said:

Yes, very good advice. "Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively".

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Likely to be taken from a book fifty years ago when very fast cars met very slow cars out on the open road with completely different agenda. Making progress in a fast car with slow cars around you could be done smoothly and without fuss.

Today everyone is in a car with fairly matched ability to accelerate and perform within the speed limit. Someones driving ability means nothing if the cars are closely matched. And to add the last nail to the coffin everyone now uses the speed limit as a target, and above the speed limit comes with fairly onerous penalties for those of us who still work.

So overtake now is not relaxed and slow and without fuss. It is opportune, usually requires tailgating to alert, or by surprise on the dawdling driver, and needs a lot of fuss and flourish to make a car perform significantly better than the other within the speed limit.

Its nice to read books about slow and smooth, or hear stories on forum like this about it, but I wouldn't want to sit in a car with someone slow and smooth because they would be vulnerable to every odd, or weird driver on the road who hated their breakfast, or wife and was driving a shopping trolley still capable of a 5 second 0-60.

I disagree with you there. There are plenty of drivers doing less than the limit on NSL roads, and a big difference between a smooth unobtrusive overtake and a rushed fussy one. Or between a driver who makes smooth progress down a twisty road and one who drives jerkily. Even in a built up area there is a big difference between the driver who makes a passenger feel relaxed and the one who has the passenger reflexively going for a non existent brake pedal.

It isn't about being 'slow', it's about avoiding unnecessary delay without rushing.

[Armchair_Expert]

DocSteve said:

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Roadcraft I believe - its a well known phrase.

[Armchair_Expert]

Dr Jekyll said:

I disagree with you there. There are plenty of drivers doing less than the limit on NSL roads, and a big difference between a smooth unobtrusive overtake and a rushed fussy one. Or between a driver who makes smooth progress down a twisty road and one who drives jerkily. Even in a built up area there is a big difference between the driver who makes a passenger feel relaxed and the one who has the passenger reflexively going for a non existent brake pedal.

It isn't about being 'slow', it's about avoiding unnecessary delay without rushing.

I will second that disagreement.

It may be true that speeds are generally higher these days, and in if you take into account the previously comments about how drivers will treat an NSL road, it is entirely feasible to be carrying out overtakes that are well planned, perfectly safe and at an acceptable speed for the circumstances*.

It is true that you will have drivers who can see your intentions and start to react / play up to your overtake. They may read your intentions via your approach speed or positioning, or both. If that happens you just have to re assess the scenario as a whole, because once this happens you have whole other issue to deal with as part of any overtake. Unless you know you have significant power advantage over such drivers this situation would normally result in me dropping back and not even entertaining persevering until we parted company. Even with a power avantage, it is not uncommon for people to "test" by veering across the white lines at the critical moment you start to pass, purely to provoke. This even happens on DC's at the higher margins of acceptable closing speeds.

• With safety and system in mind.

[julian64]

Armchair_Expert said:

Dr Jekyll said:

I disagree with you there. There are plenty of drivers doing less than the limit on NSL roads, and a big difference between a smooth unobtrusive overtake and a rushed fussy one. Or between a driver who makes smooth progress down a twisty road and one who drives jerkily. Even in a built up area there is a big difference between the driver who makes a passenger feel relaxed and the one who has the passenger reflexively going for a non existent brake pedal.

It isn't about being 'slow', it's about avoiding unnecessary delay without rushing.

I will second that disagreement.

It may be true that speeds are generally higher these days, and in if you take into account the previously comments about how drivers will treat an NSL road, it is entirely feasible to be carrying out overtakes that are well planned, perfectly safe and at an acceptable speed for the circumstances*.

It is true that you will have drivers who can see your intentions and start to react / play up to your overtake. They may read your intentions via your approach speed or positioning, or both. If that happens you just have to re assess the scenario as a whole, because once this happens you have whole other issue to deal with as part of any overtake. Unless you know you have significant power advantage over such drivers this situation would normally result in me dropping back and not even entertaining persevering until we parted company. Even with a power avantage, it is not uncommon for people to "test" by veering across the white lines at the critical moment you start to pass, purely to provoke. This even happens on DC's at the higher margins of acceptable closing speeds.

• With safety and system in mind.

I don't think you really have a power advantage anymore which is kinda my point. An ideal overtake for smooth and fuss free is either a massive power advantage, which has to be more massive the more congested the road is, or a meeting of minds between the two drivers and a cooperative overtake.

The massive power advantage has all but gone in this world, even more so if you are going to restrict yourself to the speed limit.

The cooperative overtake is still a thing, but I tend to be quite cynical regarding this, and certainly while commuting, this is rarely a thing. Out for a drive at the weekend it is more of a thing, or better if you are driving something the car in front approves of.

Its not ideal to be surprising the driver in front with the overtake, But on balance weighing up either asking the psychi of the driver in front or surprising the psychi of the driver in front, I tend to find surprising to be the safer option. I do admit broad brush opinion here.

And I do realize I'm probably an outlier on an AD thread with that opinion.

[Pica-Pica]

julian64 said:

I don't think you really have a power advantage anymore which is kinda my point. An ideal overtake for smooth and fuss free is either a massive power advantage, which has to be more massive the more congested the road is, or a meeting of minds between the two drivers and a cooperative overtake.

The massive power advantage has all but gone in this world, even more so if you are going to restrict yourself to the speed limit.

The cooperative overtake is still a thing, but I tend to be quite cynical regarding this, and certainly while commuting, this is rarely a thing. Out for a drive at the weekend it is more of a thing, or better if you are driving something the car in front approves of.

Its not ideal to be surprising the driver in front with the overtake, But on balance weighing up either asking the psychi of the driver in front or surprising the psychi of the driver in front, I tend to find surprising to be the safer option. I do admit broad brush opinion here.

And I do realize I'm probably an outlier on an AD thread with that opinion.

I don’t think you need a power advantage, just observation and skill.

My best overtake was:
On an A road with a BMW in front and a lorry in-front of that.
As I approached, I kept back. The road bent slightly to the left and was up hill, so keeping back I had a clear view that the distant view was clear for a fair distance. I quickly closed the gap, moved out for the near view as the bend straightened, indicated and went past both. That was in a 1.2 Fabia. A smooth satisfying pass.

(‘psyche’)

[Solocle]

Pica-Pica said:

I don’t think you need a power advantage, just observation and skill.

My best overtake was:
On an A road with a BMW in front and a lorry in-front of that.
As I approached, I kept back. The road bent slightly to the left and was up hill, so keeping back I had a clear view that the distant view was clear for a fair distance. I quickly closed the gap, moved out for the near view as the bend straightened, indicated and went past both. That was in a 1.2 Fabia. A smooth satisfying pass.

(‘psyche’)

I raise you the car sat behind a tractor, bendy NSL B road, close enough that they couldn't see past the thing. I held back, the view opened up, so I moved offside and accelerated swiftly past them both.

I was on my bicycle

[kiethton]

Solocle said:

I raise you the car sat behind a tractor, bendy NSL B road, close enough that they couldn't see past the thing. I held back, the view opened up, so I moved offside and accelerated swiftly past them both.

I was on my bicycle

That's brilliant haha

[julian64]

Pica-Pica said:

I don’t think you need a power advantage, just observation and skill.

My best overtake was:
On an A road with a BMW in front and a lorry in-front of that.
As I approached, I kept back. The road bent slightly to the left and was up hill, so keeping back I had a clear view that the distant view was clear for a fair distance. I quickly closed the gap, moved out for the near view as the bend straightened, indicated and went past both. That was in a 1.2 Fabia. A smooth satisfying pass.

(‘psyche’)

I did fully expect to see a number of posts where the perfect overtake happened in a very low power car, and in that I think this was a fine example.

[vonhosen]

DocSteve said:

Armchair_Expert said:

Yes, very good advice. "Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively".

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Roadcraft.
There's more to the quoted excerpt too, it continues,

"They are always in the correct place on the road, travelling at the correct speed, with the correct gear engaged & they achieve this desirable state by concentrating, planning ahead & driving systematically".

[Pica-Pica]

kiethton said:

Solocle said:

I raise you the car sat behind a tractor, bendy NSL B road, close enough that they couldn't see past the thing. I held back, the view opened up, so I moved offside and accelerated swiftly past them both.

I was on my bicycle

That's brilliant haha

Swiftly passed by Usain Bolt!