Advanced trained copper says your speed is just right....

[Dr Jekyll]

On civilian advanced riding and driving sessions with police instructors I've always tried to aim for feedback of 'you're safe but could perhaps go a bit faster and still be safe' on the basis that coppers do press on somewhat.

On the other hand some recent bike feedback was that I was sometimes going a bit too slowly into corners to the point where I might annoy or at least surprise following traffic. So maybe I was rationalising a fault that was down to poor observation.

Should I take the view that if I'm paying someone to show me how to ride/drive I should do things their way and let them allow for the fact that I don't have to chase villains and don't have emergency markings?

I may well back off a bit when not being assessed but I want to make sure my observation ETC is up to scratch and I'm backing off for additional safety margin rather than using 'I'm not in that much of a hurry' as an excuse for being a bit sloppy.

[Pica-Pica]

Are those who say ‘press on’ going to pay your fines?

[Dr Jekyll]

Let's assume we are taking about a road were all this happens well within the speed limit.

[Backagain]

This had always fascinated me. If you can legally use all the road ( no double whites, within speed limits, well sighted, road empty ) why do people tut and fuss when you do, and insist on staying left, when there is no good reason to do so?

[_Hoppers]

Don’t exceed the speed limit but drive at a speed where you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

[Backagain]

_Hoppers said:

Don’t exceed the speed limit but drive at a speed where you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

Driving 101.

[Dr Jekyll]

_Hoppers said:

Don’t exceed the speed limit but drive at a speed where you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

Well obviously.

But unfortunately judging the speed which allows you to stop on your own side of the road in the distance ETC ETC is not that simple on a bend, especially on a bike and/or when the road surface is inconsistent. For another thing unless your judgement is superhuman you would try to judge a speed which leaves plenty of room to stop. How much is plenty? It depends. If a rider ahead who you trust can see further round than you and isn't braking or swerving yet, then rather less than if you've just passed a pedestrian carrying something heavy and you haven't seen a parked vehicle yet.

[Peter3442]

You're on a country lane with bends. Most often there are hedges and limited vision. How far do you go in slowing down for 'just in case' situations? If you allow for all possibilities, there are going to be a lot of bends that you'll take at only a few miles per hour.

[waremark]

Do you practice emergency braking on bends to test and update your judgement of the distance needed to stop?

On less wide roads, do you plan to be able to stop in less than half the distance you can see to be clear?

[Dr Jekyll]

waremark said:

Do you practice emergency braking on bends to test and update your judgement of the distance needed to stop?

I do in a car, not so much on a bike, certainly not maximum braking.

waremark said:

On less wide roads, do you plan to be able to stop in less than half the distance you can see to be clear?

Plan to yes, rather less than that in fact. People coming the other way are often going faster than me. So far I've managed to stop in time whenever I've met someone coming the other way on my side of the road but it tends to happen on slow corners. I think Vonhosen warned that there is a tendency to overestimate stopping distance at very low speeds but underestimate it as speeds rise.

[Rushjob]

Dr Jekyll said:

On civilian advanced riding and driving sessions with police instructors I've always tried to aim for feedback of 'you're safe but could perhaps go a bit faster and still be safe' on the basis that coppers do press on somewhat.

On the other hand some recent bike feedback was that I was sometimes going a bit too slowly into corners to the point where I might annoy or at least surprise following traffic. So maybe I was rationalising a fault that was down to poor observation.

Should I take the view that if I'm paying someone to show me how to ride/drive I should do things their way and let them allow for the fact that I don't have to chase villains and don't have emergency markings?

I may well back off a bit when not being assessed but I want to make sure my observation ETC is up to scratch and I'm backing off for additional safety margin rather than using 'I'm not in that much of a hurry' as an excuse for being a bit sloppy.

Safe, smooth and progressive. That's what you're looking for. If you're not making the requisite progress for the prevailing road conditions whilst remaining firstly safe and then smooth, then you've failed the course.

[waremark]

Dr Jekyll said:

Plan to yes, rather less than that in fact. People coming the other way are often going faster than me.

One of my more memorable moments was on an unsighted bend on a road close to home where there is normally comfortable room for two to pass. I was at about 60 when I saw a lorry towards me in the middle of the road, I did full abs braking and was stopped on my own side of the road. The lorry was still coming towards me skidding with its wheels locked up. Happily it came to a stop just in time.

Afterwards I thought that I could have started to reverse (my car was automatic) but I didn't think of it at the time.

[jamesallport]

Day to day, I try to bear in mind that (legal exemptions apart) I don't have the same "noble cause" as a police officer driving to a shout, and so the acceptable level of risk, in my mind, is lower for me than for them.

So whereas on a police course it might be encouraged to drive in such a way that you can *just* stop, with full emergency braking and sharp reactions, in the distance you can see to be clear (etc.); from day to day my test is, "Can I stop *undramatically*...?"

But I'm someone who has always been more interested in smoothness than speed. Others' mileage will vary...

[Boosted LS1]

Pica-Pica said:

Are those who say ‘press on’ going to pay your fines?

What fines? They didn't see me, I wasn't there and I doubt they were either :-)

Taxation for me only happens every few years, for low limit transgressions and during those years I drive at an appropriate speed for me.

[Armchair_Expert]

There is some misunderstanding here. No police course bike or otherwise is designed to push you to the threshold of safety to catch a bad guy. Job role and purpose don't come into it. In fact detaching yourself emotionally does come into it, you should not be thinking at any point in time what you are going to until you get there.

The comments given to the OP will be about his entry speeds and progression around bends from both a safety point of view, as well as public expectation and being able to use available performance of the machine.

OP how do you corner, do you alter position based on the bend - i.e for a left hander are you moving out to the crown of the road, assessing the limit point and seeking to apply acceleration through the bend based on vision and hazards? I don't have any knowledge of how you ride but my instinct from what you have said is that your observer feels you are not riding bends with confidence. Are you holding back for what might be there rather than looking to ride the bend based on what is there?

Is this some sort of Bikesafe day you have done?

[Dr Jekyll]

Armchair_Expert said:

There is some misunderstanding here. No police course bike or otherwise is designed to push you to the threshold of safety to catch a bad guy. Job role and purpose don't come into it. In fact detaching yourself emotionally does come into it, you should not be thinking at any point in time what you are going to until you get there.

The comments given to the OP will be about his entry speeds and progression around bends from both a safety point of view, as well as public expectation and being able to use available performance of the machine.

OP how do you corner, do you alter position based on the bend - i.e for a left hander are you moving out to the crown of the road, assessing the limit point and seeking to apply acceleration through the bend based on vision and hazards? I don't have any knowledge of how you ride but my instinct from what you have said is that your observer feels you are not riding bends with confidence. Are you holding back for what might be there rather than looking to ride the bend based on what is there?

Is this some sort of Bikesafe day you have done?

Yes, Bikesafe.

I am generally positioning as you describe and using the limit point. As for applying acceleration through the bend I try to, but the observer reckoned I was actually slowing through the bend. In a car I can feel the 'click' when the acceleration is right and the car's weight is no longer falling over the front wheel on the outside of the bend, on a bike it seems more tricky. Rospa Gold in the car but can't even get IAM on the bike.

As for not riding bends with confidence, that's exactly it. If I was upsetting the bike by losing speed through he bends that would explain it to an extent.

As for "holding back for what might be there rather than looking to ride the bend based on what is there" I'm trying to do both. Responding to what is there while allowing for what is lurking out of sight. This is exactly the problem I had with my IAM observer in that I couldn't figure out exactly what I was doing wrong. The final straw was when I said 'but what id there is a parked car round the blind bend?' and he said 'what if there isn't?'

That particular IAM group does have a propensity for cornering accidents so it wasn't just me in the wrong.

A lot of police training isa based on the idea of travelling at the maximum safe speed. Mainly so the student can demonstrate they have assessed the hazards correctly. Without overstating it, there is some extra safety margin in going a bit slower. So what I'm aiming for is to take advantage of the fact that I don't have to attend emergencies give myself a bit more time to react, while not falling into the trap of thinking that by going slow I can get away with less observation.

My problem is that the I seem to be in the second category rather than the first. But I'm curious as to whether others aim for the same as me or whether it's unrealistic to aim for such a narrow window.

[StressedDave]

Peter3442 said:

You're on a country lane with bends. Most often there are hedges and limited vision. How far do you go in slowing down for 'just in case' situations? If you allow for all possibilities, there are going to be a lot of bends that you'll take at only a few miles per hour.

You allow for all reasonable possibilities and I'd say on roads like the above, granny cycling tight into the verge and having to swerve out suddenly for a pothole is fairly high on the list.

And FWIW, a few mph is often a lot higher than you imagine. The stopping distance from 10mph is also remarkably short and you'd need to have an incredible lack of vision for that to be the maximum safe speed.

All of the best drivers I know are marked by having the self confidence to drive really, really slowly if the situation demands. Too many of us rely on probabilities rather than exactitudes in that regard.

[dvenman]

StressedDave said:

All of the best drivers I know are marked by having the self confidence to drive really, really slowly if the situation demands.

This in spades. It's never "how fast can I safely go" but "how early can I see something, or anticipate something I can't see, and get the speed off to make it safe".

[Armchair_Expert]

StressedDave said:

You allow for all reasonable possibilities and I'd say on roads like the above, granny cycling tight into the verge and having to swerve out suddenly for a pothole is fairly high on the list.

And FWIW, a few mph is often a lot higher than you imagine. The stopping distance from 10mph is also remarkably short and you'd need to have an incredible lack of vision for that to be the maximum safe speed.

All of the best drivers I know are marked by having the self confidence to drive really, really slowly if the situation demands. Too many of us rely on probabilities rather than exactitudes in that regard.

Are you the same stressed dave that used to post on ADUK back in the day?

[Far Cough]

I`d suggest that you are not riding to the "limit points" whilst circumventing a bend and that is what the instructor was on about. They still teach slow in fast out but not to the point where you are too slow in.