Roundabout overtake.
Discussion
Toltec said:
SpeckledJim said:
Whatever amount of time you have saved is ‘taken’ from the other people in the queue.
You get home 20 minutes faster. They get home a total of 20 minutes later. If you can justify that to yourself then fair enough.
I do not think that is the case, if you are in the left lane everyone behind you has to wait for however long it takes you to pull on to the roundabout from the front position. This is not going to be any less than waiting for you as you loop the roundabout and may be more as if the lead car at the left lane is turning left they should be able to move as you are turning right. You get home 20 minutes faster. They get home a total of 20 minutes later. If you can justify that to yourself then fair enough.
The roundabout could be more efficient if the left lane is left turn only and the right straight on and right. This would allow two cars to enter and cross in the same time as just one if everyone is using just the one lane.
If someone behind you (who isn't affecting your queue time) finds a way to get in front of you (looping the roundabout, pushing in, cosmic wormhole, whatever) then your wait time is going to go up by the period of 'one car'. And so is the wait time of everyone else that person has 'overtaken'.
say it's a queue of 20 cars and is 200 seconds long. If car 21 approaching the back of the queue gets straight to the front he saves that 200 seconds. Every other car in the queue moves one place backwards, and each loses 10 seconds. (20 cars x 10 seconds each = 200 seconds)
SpeckledJim said:
Your time taken in the queue is a function of how many people are in front of you. It's not affected by how many people are behind you.
If someone behind you (who isn't affecting your queue time) finds a way to get in front of you (looping the roundabout, pushing in, cosmic wormhole, whatever) then your wait time is going to go up by the period of 'one car'. And so is the wait time of everyone else that person has 'overtaken'.
say it's a queue of 20 cars and is 200 seconds long. If car 21 approaching the back of the queue gets straight to the front he saves that 200 seconds. Every other car in the queue moves one place backwards, and each loses 10 seconds. (20 cars x 10 seconds each = 200 seconds)
You are thinking in serial not parallel and assuming everyone is trying to use the same resource.If someone behind you (who isn't affecting your queue time) finds a way to get in front of you (looping the roundabout, pushing in, cosmic wormhole, whatever) then your wait time is going to go up by the period of 'one car'. And so is the wait time of everyone else that person has 'overtaken'.
say it's a queue of 20 cars and is 200 seconds long. If car 21 approaching the back of the queue gets straight to the front he saves that 200 seconds. Every other car in the queue moves one place backwards, and each loses 10 seconds. (20 cars x 10 seconds each = 200 seconds)
If you pass a queue and use road that they either do not want to use or cannot access at the same time as you there is no effect on their journey.
The situation will be different if there is another queue beyond the roundabout and cars you have passed catch you up.
Edited by Toltec on Wednesday 9th February 15:22
Toltec said:
SpeckledJim said:
Your time taken in the queue is a function of how many people are in front of you. It's not affected by how many people are behind you.
If someone behind you (who isn't affecting your queue time) finds a way to get in front of you (looping the roundabout, pushing in, cosmic wormhole, whatever) then your wait time is going to go up by the period of 'one car'. And so is the wait time of everyone else that person has 'overtaken'.
say it's a queue of 20 cars and is 200 seconds long. If car 21 approaching the back of the queue gets straight to the front he saves that 200 seconds. Every other car in the queue moves one place backwards, and each loses 10 seconds. (20 cars x 10 seconds each = 200 seconds)
You are thinking in serial not parallel and assuming everyone is trying to use the same resource.
If you pass a queue and use road that they either do not want to use or cannot access at the same time as you there is no effect on their journey.
The situation will be different if there is another queue beyond the roundabout and cars you have passed catch you up.
If someone behind you (who isn't affecting your queue time) finds a way to get in front of you (looping the roundabout, pushing in, cosmic wormhole, whatever) then your wait time is going to go up by the period of 'one car'. And so is the wait time of everyone else that person has 'overtaken'.
say it's a queue of 20 cars and is 200 seconds long. If car 21 approaching the back of the queue gets straight to the front he saves that 200 seconds. Every other car in the queue moves one place backwards, and each loses 10 seconds. (20 cars x 10 seconds each = 200 seconds)
You are thinking in serial not parallel and assuming everyone is trying to use the same resource.
If you pass a queue and use road that they either do not want to use or cannot access at the same time as you there is no effect on their journey.
The situation will be different if there is another queue beyond the roundabout and cars you have passed catch you up.
I'm assuming that the queue to turn left exists because of some backing-up on the road post-roundabout?
SpeckledJim said:
But when you insert yourself into the 'flow' of the queue taking the left turn, you occupy space that everyone else is queuing for the privilege of occupying.
I'm assuming that the queue to turn left exists because of some backing-up on the road post-roundabout?
It depends if the backing up is to the left or straight on, if to the left then what you are doing is avoiding inserting yourself into a queue for a resource you don't even want to use. I'm assuming that the queue to turn left exists because of some backing-up on the road post-roundabout?
Toltec said:
SpeckledJim said:
But when you insert yourself into the 'flow' of the queue taking the left turn, you occupy space that everyone else is queuing for the privilege of occupying.
I'm assuming that the queue to turn left exists because of some backing-up on the road post-roundabout?
It depends if the backing up is to the left or straight on, if to the left then what you are doing is avoiding inserting yourself into a queue for a resource you don't even want to use. I'm assuming that the queue to turn left exists because of some backing-up on the road post-roundabout?
As I understand it there's a queue on the left of a two-lane approach to a roundabout, and they're wanting to turn left. The OP also wants to turn left, but 'games the system' by in effect doing 3 rights, and takes advantage of the roundabout rules to cut in front of the queue before the roundabout.
So they wait for him, rather than he wait for them.
I'm not saying I've never done it when in a genuine rush. But it's not really cricket.
SpeckledJim said:
We might be talking at crossed-purposes?
As I understand it there's a queue on the left of a two-lane approach to a roundabout, and they're wanting to turn left. The OP also wants to turn left, but 'games the system' by in effect doing 3 rights, and takes advantage of the roundabout rules to cut in front of the queue before the roundabout.
So they wait for him, rather than he wait for them.
I'm not saying I've never done it when in a genuine rush. But it's not really cricket.
It isn't particularly clear as he gets his angles and turns wrong, but he does say he wants to go straight on. As I understand it there's a queue on the left of a two-lane approach to a roundabout, and they're wanting to turn left. The OP also wants to turn left, but 'games the system' by in effect doing 3 rights, and takes advantage of the roundabout rules to cut in front of the queue before the roundabout.
So they wait for him, rather than he wait for them.
I'm not saying I've never done it when in a genuine rush. But it's not really cricket.
SpeckledJim said:
Whatever amount of time you have saved is ‘taken’ from the other people in the queue.
You get home 20 minutes faster. They get home a total of 20 minutes later. If you can justify that to yourself then fair enough.
I can’t work out your logic. There are two lanes here - lane 1 is to go left down a single carriageway bypass and also straight on into town where I need to go. The bypass in that direction can get clogged. Lane 2 is to go right down the single carriageway bypass in the other direction and that lane is often clear when I’m leaving work and might actually speed things up for all if more circled the roundabout. This doesn’t happen often but it is possible to get round it by doing that manoeuvre.You get home 20 minutes faster. They get home a total of 20 minutes later. If you can justify that to yourself then fair enough.
Toltec said:
SpeckledJim said:
We might be talking at crossed-purposes?
As I understand it there's a queue on the left of a two-lane approach to a roundabout, and they're wanting to turn left. The OP also wants to turn left, but 'games the system' by in effect doing 3 rights, and takes advantage of the roundabout rules to cut in front of the queue before the roundabout.
So they wait for him, rather than he wait for them.
I'm not saying I've never done it when in a genuine rush. But it's not really cricket.
It isn't particularly clear as he gets his angles and turns wrong, but he does say he wants to go straight on. As I understand it there's a queue on the left of a two-lane approach to a roundabout, and they're wanting to turn left. The OP also wants to turn left, but 'games the system' by in effect doing 3 rights, and takes advantage of the roundabout rules to cut in front of the queue before the roundabout.
So they wait for him, rather than he wait for them.
I'm not saying I've never done it when in a genuine rush. But it's not really cricket.
We have one near us in Leam. Inside lane for left and straight on, outside for right. 90% of the queueing traffic is for straight on but always the busiest exit and often blocked. Ergo those wanting to turn left are fooked.
Some drivers do the right round (baby right round) to be able to turn left, not holding anyone up or jumping the queue. I don't frown upon but commend them for not adding to the already substantial queue
Some drivers do the right round (baby right round) to be able to turn left, not holding anyone up or jumping the queue. I don't frown upon but commend them for not adding to the already substantial queue
LightningBlue said:
SpeckledJim said:
Whatever amount of time you have saved is ‘taken’ from the other people in the queue.
You get home 20 minutes faster. They get home a total of 20 minutes later. If you can justify that to yourself then fair enough.
I can’t work out your logic. There are two lanes here - lane 1 is to go left down a single carriageway bypass and also straight on into town where I need to go. The bypass in that direction can get clogged. Lane 2 is to go right down the single carriageway bypass in the other direction and that lane is often clear when I’m leaving work and might actually speed things up for all if more circled the roundabout. This doesn’t happen often but it is possible to get round it by doing that manoeuvre.You get home 20 minutes faster. They get home a total of 20 minutes later. If you can justify that to yourself then fair enough.
I approached the Morrisons roundabout on the Darlington bypass a few days ago with the same intention. Lane 1 backed up and lane 2 completely empty. Once I got to the roundabout I didn't even have to stop which meant I was quicker off the line than the front vehicle in lane 1. I made a quick mirror check, applied a left signal, and managed to carry straight on without having to go all the way around.
Now that's what I call progress.
Now that's what I call progress.
Sherpa Kev said:
I approached the Morrisons roundabout on the Darlington bypass a few days ago with the same intention. Lane 1 backed up and lane 2 completely empty. Once I got to the roundabout I didn't even have to stop which meant I was quicker off the line than the front vehicle in lane 1. I made a quick mirror check, applied a left signal, and managed to carry straight on without having to go all the way around.
Now that's what I call progress.
Ah, yes, impromptu lane adjustment.Now that's what I call progress.
Skip ahead to 2 minutes
With the queue for fuel (left for the services) backing up lane 1, lane 2, straight on/right was becoming a de facto straight on lane. So I moved across to lane 3, where normally on a bike, you'd take the leftmost lane for your destination (especially as it was about to be not-a-trafifc-jam).
Solocle said:
Ah, yes, impromptu lane adjustment.
Skip ahead to 2 minutes
With the queue for fuel (left for the services) backing up lane 1, lane 2, straight on/right was becoming a de facto straight on lane. So I moved across to lane 3, where normally on a bike, you'd take the leftmost lane for your destination (especially as it was about to be not-a-trafifc-jam).
Loved they way you passed the L plate biker, those cats eyes clearly don't bother you either. The van managed not to take you out or you didn't let him at least. Skip ahead to 2 minutes
With the queue for fuel (left for the services) backing up lane 1, lane 2, straight on/right was becoming a de facto straight on lane. So I moved across to lane 3, where normally on a bike, you'd take the leftmost lane for your destination (especially as it was about to be not-a-trafifc-jam).
Toltec said:
Loved they way you passed the L plate biker, those cats eyes clearly don't bother you either. The van managed not to take you out or you didn't let him at least.
With the biker I only went round once I saw his foot go down. Did think it a bit funny that I noticed him coming earlier and pulled aside in good time to let him pass, but it wasn't reciprocated. While I prefer not to go over the cats eyes if avoidable, they're not too bad at that speed.Yeah, that last bit of the roundabout was getting a bit gnarly, hence my initial position just inside L3 after passing that van, before deciding that L3 was actually the best bet, so check, let the white car pass, and then follow.
Intense and maybe not perfect technique, but very good progress while not feeling at all dangerous. Any lane changes were going to be slow affairs.
I cheerfully admit to having performed this particular manoeuvre & feel no guilt whatsoever at carrying it out. Merely another act of roadcraft IMO, in much the same vein as coming off a busy motorway & re-entering it immediately at the top of the junction to gain some ground. I have fond memories of extremely successful ventures of this type around the clockwise Heathrow stretch of M25 which is ideal for this type of manoeuvre at busy periods.
It's a perfectly legal & reasonable thing to do & what is more anyone can do it. And if they do come to that realisation but then choose not to do it, for whatever reason they use to make that choice, then that is also a perfectly reasonable course of action. I don't consider what other drivers may be thinking of me when l use these options as practically none of them will even be aware what l have done anyway, unless they're constantly observing me for some unknown reason, or perhaps when l'm in a liveried lorry. As others have pointed out, you have removed yourself from whatever particular hold-up was occurring leaving more space for other vehicles to occupy.
A long time ago I read an old roadcraft book from the '60s espousing these sort of manoeuvres, legal but uncommon & the author mentioned that some of his methods were contentious but they seemed good sense to me & still do. I don't always use them but feel no compunction when l do & if it happens to annoy anyone who has noticed what l've done, then they're free to not do the same thing & keep their sense of moral superiority intact or to decide that they might have a go at the same thing themselves. It's all the same to me though l would prefer that not everybody starts to do it. ;-)
It's a perfectly legal & reasonable thing to do & what is more anyone can do it. And if they do come to that realisation but then choose not to do it, for whatever reason they use to make that choice, then that is also a perfectly reasonable course of action. I don't consider what other drivers may be thinking of me when l use these options as practically none of them will even be aware what l have done anyway, unless they're constantly observing me for some unknown reason, or perhaps when l'm in a liveried lorry. As others have pointed out, you have removed yourself from whatever particular hold-up was occurring leaving more space for other vehicles to occupy.
A long time ago I read an old roadcraft book from the '60s espousing these sort of manoeuvres, legal but uncommon & the author mentioned that some of his methods were contentious but they seemed good sense to me & still do. I don't always use them but feel no compunction when l do & if it happens to annoy anyone who has noticed what l've done, then they're free to not do the same thing & keep their sense of moral superiority intact or to decide that they might have a go at the same thing themselves. It's all the same to me though l would prefer that not everybody starts to do it. ;-)
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