Is overtaking a lost art?
Discussion
I'll also say I will generally not refuse a safe overtake but my appetite for risk has reduced over the years. Fortunately I'm wealthier and more powerfully built now so I can offset that with more horsepowers.
It's all practice. When you stop looking for the overtake, you get rusty and lose confidence. Then you lose competence. Then you join the queue.
It has to be worth it. If I know there's a stretch of DC in a mile it has to be an opportunity looking at me with a coquettish smile and pants around the ankles.
As for the detractors:
So I only got past the first 4 cars in 5 miles and I'm still stuck behind Mr Ocado. Then he turns off. Now I drive my drive, bye bye.
So you caught me up at the lights. For all I knew when I passed you, the lights might have been green when I arrived.
In built up area there's generally nothing to be gained but in the open, yep, every time.
It's all practice. When you stop looking for the overtake, you get rusty and lose confidence. Then you lose competence. Then you join the queue.
It has to be worth it. If I know there's a stretch of DC in a mile it has to be an opportunity looking at me with a coquettish smile and pants around the ankles.
As for the detractors:
So I only got past the first 4 cars in 5 miles and I'm still stuck behind Mr Ocado. Then he turns off. Now I drive my drive, bye bye.
So you caught me up at the lights. For all I knew when I passed you, the lights might have been green when I arrived.
In built up area there's generally nothing to be gained but in the open, yep, every time.
bearman68 said:
I would say that overtaking IS more dangerous than the alternative.
But it's a valuable part of driving skill and experience, and of course should be taught. In flying the most dangerous things are taught and practiced over and over again, in order that when it occurs, it won't kill you.
Flying has a lot to teach driver training.
Driving is more dangerous than the alternative. It’s all a risk mitigation exercise, but overtaking is not inherently unacceptably risky. Not done correctly. But it's a valuable part of driving skill and experience, and of course should be taught. In flying the most dangerous things are taught and practiced over and over again, in order that when it occurs, it won't kill you.
Flying has a lot to teach driver training.
I also don’t accept the argument that it doesn’t save time - people may remember being caught up at the next obstruction, they don’t remember the times they were not. It’s necessary systemically if roads are not to flow at the speed of the slowest driver.
I believe for the most part, driving capability has declined to such an extent that even those that are confident in making manoeuvres choose not to simply for self preservation.
In a car, I'll overtake when I am confident that the individual in front isn't a total moron (and this judgement is greater when I have my daughter in the car). Case in point, last weekend I picked up a friend and we were heading off to get a coffee via some nice back roads I know extremely well. I came around a bend and approached a soft-roader, initially at pace but leaving 4 to 5 car lengths gap to give myself visibility past for an overtake, they were doing around 35 in the NSL. They chose to move to the centre of the road to block me, flicking the hazard lights, tapping the brakes etc. I followed, leaving space, for around a mile and we watched as they couldn't keep their car in lane, driving 40 in a 30, aggressive braking when on coming traffic was coming towards them etc. My friend asked if this is a common occurrence (he occasionally drives an entry level toureg so isn't often making progress as such) and was surprised when I said yes. We just left some space, let the chap in front go away and chose an alternate route to Costa.
Had I been on the bike though, the first second I could I'd have been gone and not thought twice.
In a car, I'll overtake when I am confident that the individual in front isn't a total moron (and this judgement is greater when I have my daughter in the car). Case in point, last weekend I picked up a friend and we were heading off to get a coffee via some nice back roads I know extremely well. I came around a bend and approached a soft-roader, initially at pace but leaving 4 to 5 car lengths gap to give myself visibility past for an overtake, they were doing around 35 in the NSL. They chose to move to the centre of the road to block me, flicking the hazard lights, tapping the brakes etc. I followed, leaving space, for around a mile and we watched as they couldn't keep their car in lane, driving 40 in a 30, aggressive braking when on coming traffic was coming towards them etc. My friend asked if this is a common occurrence (he occasionally drives an entry level toureg so isn't often making progress as such) and was surprised when I said yes. We just left some space, let the chap in front go away and chose an alternate route to Costa.
Had I been on the bike though, the first second I could I'd have been gone and not thought twice.
2gins said:
Rozzers said:
They usually eventually pass, in the wrong gear, in the worst location possible.
Clipped,But, from the perspective of a person riding a bicycle, 1 million times this.
Get on with it!
Speaking about overtaking generally though, back in the 1980s I'd decided that @ 1 in 3 drivers won't overtake, and with traffic levels even then it doesn't take long at all to have 2 or 3 cars behind the slow vehicle, and so the distance to overtake can very quickly become a genuine challenge.
littlebasher said:
Skill aside, if my wife is in the car, i won't bother as she makes such a massive deal about it.
Even on a wide, straight road with visibility for a mile, she'll still panic the instant i dare move over to pass a Honda Jazz tootling along at 30mph in a 60 section.
That would have been a deal breaker for me at the courting stage!Even on a wide, straight road with visibility for a mile, she'll still panic the instant i dare move over to pass a Honda Jazz tootling along at 30mph in a 60 section.
heebeegeetee said:
Agreed, watching drivers overtaking or trying to overtake a cyclist can be bloody depressing.
Speaking about overtaking generally though, back in the 1980s I'd decided that @ 1 in 3 drivers won't overtake, and with traffic levels even then it doesn't take long at all to have 2 or 3 cars behind the slow vehicle, and so the distance to overtake can very quickly become a genuine challenge.
And this is why one needs 400 bhp.Speaking about overtaking generally though, back in the 1980s I'd decided that @ 1 in 3 drivers won't overtake, and with traffic levels even then it doesn't take long at all to have 2 or 3 cars behind the slow vehicle, and so the distance to overtake can very quickly become a genuine challenge.
It's always a good feeling to overtake, it's a great skill to have and practice. Being a truck driver the road system is a means to get from a to b, don't dawdle about,your boss won't like me holding you up doing your job.
Batter on and enjoy the roads, it's soon gonna be lost with double whites and lowered speed limits etc.
Buy a motorbike, best fun ever.
Batter on and enjoy the roads, it's soon gonna be lost with double whites and lowered speed limits etc.
Buy a motorbike, best fun ever.
2gins said:
And this is why one needs 400 bhp.
Not in my experience. I've overtaken in everything from small engined Fiat 500s to M[3|4|5] with > 400bhp. The horsepower makes the overtake quicker, but the planning means many more overtakes are possible than waiting for a straight to appear *then* thinking the overtake is on.dvenman said:
2gins said:
And this is why one needs 400 bhp.
Not in my experience. I've overtaken in everything from small engined Fiat 500s to M[3|4|5] with > 400bhp. The horsepower makes the overtake quicker, but the planning means many more overtakes are possible than waiting for a straight to appear *then* thinking the overtake is on.I actually remember my very first encounter with such a d
head, I hadn't been driving long and couldn't understand why he wanted to travel so slowly on a nice Wiltshire A-road yet floored it any time I moved out to perform a well-sighted overtake. Quite infuriating, I was in a slow 90bhp hatchback at the time so there was nothing I could do about it besides let him get far enough ahead that I could get a flying start. The rage on the faces of him and his wife as I passed them... Obviously he then decided to spend the rest of the A-road glued to my backside at 60 instead of doing 30-40. Very odd behaviour. That was 20 years ago so not a lot has changed besides traffic volume and these morons having turbo torque and kickdown.
donkmeister said:
dvenman said:
2gins said:
And this is why one needs 400 bhp.
Not in my experience. I've overtaken in everything from small engined Fiat 500s to M[3|4|5] with > 400bhp. The horsepower makes the overtake quicker, but the planning means many more overtakes are possible than waiting for a straight to appear *then* thinking the overtake is on.I actually remember my very first encounter with such a d
head, I hadn't been driving long and couldn't understand why he wanted to travel so slowly on a nice Wiltshire A-road yet floored it any time I moved out to perform a well-sighted overtake. Quite infuriating, I was in a slow 90bhp hatchback at the time so there was nothing I could do about it besides let him get far enough ahead that I could get a flying start. The rage on the faces of him and his wife as I passed them... Obviously he then decided to spend the rest of the A-road glued to my backside at 60 instead of doing 30-40. Very odd behaviour. That was 20 years ago so not a lot has changed besides traffic volume and these morons having turbo torque and kickdown.
Johnnytheboy said:
littlebasher said:
Skill aside, if my wife is in the car, i won't bother as she makes such a massive deal about it.
Even on a wide, straight road with visibility for a mile, she'll still panic the instant i dare move over to pass a Honda Jazz tootling along at 30mph in a 60 section.
That would have been a deal breaker for me at the courting stage!Even on a wide, straight road with visibility for a mile, she'll still panic the instant i dare move over to pass a Honda Jazz tootling along at 30mph in a 60 section.
A few weeks ago in north Wales I was behind a Qashqai that was going at reasonable pace that I was happy to follow, then a Volvo dawdled out of a lay-by in front of both of us. There was good enough sight lines to see there wasn’t anything coming towards us on the other side of the road, so it should have been easy to overtake in a similar fashion as you would with a car joining a motorway without slowing. But no, Qashqai driver gets on the brakes down from 60mph to 25mph. I carried my momentum past both of them (keeping an eye on the Qashqai in case it indicated), but I imagine he is still behind the Volvo.
worst i've had was back along the A5 through north wales (before the average speed cameras were put in) following a line of about 10 cars, dawdling behind a campervan doing 40. immediately in front of me was a BMW M140i, so not short of clout to overtake. after sitting behind on a few long straights with no one else showing any signs of being even remotely interested in an overtake, i pull out to overtake. cockwomble in his BMW also pulls out, purely to block my overtake. so now we're both in the opposite lane, me waiting patiently to see if he is actually going to overtake anything. after a second or two, he admits he isnt actually going to overtake, so pulls back in. i then accelerate past him and the car in front of him, while he beeps me?!
then over the next mile or so i do a couple more 3 or 4 car overtakes, till im clear of the campervan and on my way.
only thing i can think of was that it was a massive affront to his ego that i had the confidence to conduct an overtake, when he didnt, despite him have 100bhp more than me.
i mean come on, the A5 has some of the longest, straightest bits of road in the country, and still someone with 300bhp+ can't overtake a few cars doing 40mph?
Perhaps his wife was with him... i was driving with my dad, who was happily napping in the passenger seat.
then over the next mile or so i do a couple more 3 or 4 car overtakes, till im clear of the campervan and on my way.
only thing i can think of was that it was a massive affront to his ego that i had the confidence to conduct an overtake, when he didnt, despite him have 100bhp more than me.
i mean come on, the A5 has some of the longest, straightest bits of road in the country, and still someone with 300bhp+ can't overtake a few cars doing 40mph?
Perhaps his wife was with him... i was driving with my dad, who was happily napping in the passenger seat.
Edited by brillomaster on Monday 22 August 16:34
ingenieur said:
Johnnytheboy said:
littlebasher said:
Skill aside, if my wife is in the car, i won't bother as she makes such a massive deal about it.
Even on a wide, straight road with visibility for a mile, she'll still panic the instant i dare move over to pass a Honda Jazz tootling along at 30mph in a 60 section.
That would have been a deal breaker for me at the courting stage!Even on a wide, straight road with visibility for a mile, she'll still panic the instant i dare move over to pass a Honda Jazz tootling along at 30mph in a 60 section.
To be fair she's very unflappable these days!
Where I live you could comfortably do 2-3 overtakes on a 20min journey without breaking the speed limit.
One issue I have noticed is that people get really pissy and drive dangerously when you over take like it’s an attack on them personally. Bearing in mind I’m not a tailgater I don’t believe in trying to push anyone along the road. They drive at their pace and I progress when safe to do. I don’t bother if I’m heading to a built up area as traffic means you don’t go any quicker.
Big issue I have with over taking is when you sit at 30mph in a 30 then you hit the national speed limit and some numpty who was glued to your bumper floors it without any indication to try and get ahead in 318d, A160 or Corsa that doesn’t go over 60 at the same time I’m accelerating up to the speed limit. They are now on the other side of the road for longer than needed and their judgement of distance required is way off and the car can’t go over 60. If they’d waited a second and drove with any anticipation they’d know I was going to accelerate then make their mind up.
Also the amount of people who can’t over take a cyclist is a joke. Leave 1.5m gap which means overtake on the other side of the road generally.
One issue I have noticed is that people get really pissy and drive dangerously when you over take like it’s an attack on them personally. Bearing in mind I’m not a tailgater I don’t believe in trying to push anyone along the road. They drive at their pace and I progress when safe to do. I don’t bother if I’m heading to a built up area as traffic means you don’t go any quicker.
Big issue I have with over taking is when you sit at 30mph in a 30 then you hit the national speed limit and some numpty who was glued to your bumper floors it without any indication to try and get ahead in 318d, A160 or Corsa that doesn’t go over 60 at the same time I’m accelerating up to the speed limit. They are now on the other side of the road for longer than needed and their judgement of distance required is way off and the car can’t go over 60. If they’d waited a second and drove with any anticipation they’d know I was going to accelerate then make their mind up.
Also the amount of people who can’t over take a cyclist is a joke. Leave 1.5m gap which means overtake on the other side of the road generally.
Overtaking...
....I do it.
Pretty much on most drives to be fair, unless there is nothing really to be gained/wife will moan.
I'm hardly driving a performance vehicle either, a 2.0 diesel Galaxy
It's just all in the planning and lifting your vision beyond your own dashboard which doesn't seem to be something taught to new drivers.
Caveat is I'm an advanced police driver so should probably be good at it...?
When I'm working, there's nothing more fun than making progress in an unmarked car without showing out. Particularly in built up areas.
Planning and vision. Planning and vision.
....I do it.
Pretty much on most drives to be fair, unless there is nothing really to be gained/wife will moan.
I'm hardly driving a performance vehicle either, a 2.0 diesel Galaxy
It's just all in the planning and lifting your vision beyond your own dashboard which doesn't seem to be something taught to new drivers.
Caveat is I'm an advanced police driver so should probably be good at it...?
When I'm working, there's nothing more fun than making progress in an unmarked car without showing out. Particularly in built up areas.
Planning and vision. Planning and vision.
Tom1312 said:
Overtaking...
....I do it.
Pretty much on most drives to be fair, unless there is nothing really to be gained/wife will moan.
I'm hardly driving a performance vehicle either, a 2.0 diesel Galaxy
It's just all in the planning and lifting your vision beyond your own dashboard which doesn't seem to be something taught to new drivers.
Caveat is I'm an advanced police driver so should probably be good at it...?
When I'm working, there's nothing more fun than making progress in an unmarked car without showing out. Particularly in built up areas.
Planning and vision. Planning and vision.
Planning and vision is vital. Seeing an overtaking opportuniy, assessing whether it's, and then executing it deftly is a great pleasure. Having enough horsepower to deal with problems caused by the overtakee is a good thing too :-)....I do it.
Pretty much on most drives to be fair, unless there is nothing really to be gained/wife will moan.
I'm hardly driving a performance vehicle either, a 2.0 diesel Galaxy
It's just all in the planning and lifting your vision beyond your own dashboard which doesn't seem to be something taught to new drivers.
Caveat is I'm an advanced police driver so should probably be good at it...?
When I'm working, there's nothing more fun than making progress in an unmarked car without showing out. Particularly in built up areas.
Planning and vision. Planning and vision.
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