Is overtaking a lost art?

[911hope]

cerb4.5lee said:

I definitely don't overtake as much as I used to. Years ago(early to mid 1990's) I'd overtake everything that was in front of me without fail, whereas now it is a lot more difficult to do because of the traffic volume. So 9 times out of 10 I'll usually just sit behind cars taking it easy.

I don't have any time for cyclists though(I used to be one myself years ago), and cyclists nowadays seem to just be out there to deliberately piss the drivers of cars off from what I see now. I always used to ride single breast to try to make it as easy as possible to pass me, whereas now I see cyclists riding 3 or 4 abreast without any consideration as to what is going on behind them. It boils my piss.

So not a fan of cyclists then?
Out just to make you angry? That would seem like a poor motive.

As a cyclist, the issue of single file vs. a group is an interesting subject.
Take a group of 6 for instance. On a 2 lane road, they are best advised to ride 2 abreast as a short block, so presents like a slow moving car. Easier to overtake than a long train, which could be too long to overtake. The driver is more likely to give them proper space, rather than squeeze past close an dangerous.

The disadvantage is that the car following them has a mind set where he believes they are just there to upset that driver. Such a person may be inwardly fuming and capable of anything.

On a single track road, the same applies. But the 2 abreast principle is to prevent the dangerous overtake. In this case the wise cyclist looks for somewhere to duck into to let them past.

[otolith]

I'd rather overtake 3x2 than 6x1. I need the other lane either way.

[911hope]

runnerbean 14 said:

Lots of A and B roads round here; I'm constantly amazed by how many drivers will just follow the car in front like sheep (usually leaving too small a gap) and never overtake, missing many perfectly safe opportunities to do so. Then, if the car in front turns off, they will speed up to what is obviously their preferred (and higher) rate of progress.

Also, I cycle quite a bit locally and am staggered by how many drivers really struggle to get past me - wrong gear, wrong moment etc. I often wonder if ab initio driving schools rarely teach overtaking; it may not be part of the driving test and it's impossible to teach if you never leave town but surely it's a vital skill on the open road and drivers needs to know how to execute an overtake properly?

I'm not talking about overtaking on dual carriageways or motorways here - a different topic although skill levels are often sadly lacking on these roads too.

Plenty of people don't overtake well on dual carriageways.
Often they dawdle past, maximising the risk time then once past speed up.
Often they change lanes into the path of a faster car, forcing them to brake. What's wrong with accelerating to the correct speed?

On a single carriageway road it also isn't hard of you think about what is needed.. visibility, and safe space to complete the move. Leave space to see and space to accelerate, so you are already faster than the overtake when you reach it. Get past quickly and get in.

But first, check someone isn't about to overtake you first.

If all these things can't be done, then you are just gambling.

Finally, is there actually a point.. if it is a busy day, you can do every overtake possible and gain almost nothing.

[dvenman]

Chris944 said:

Tom1312 said:

Overtaking...


....I do it.

...

It's just all in the planning and lifting your vision beyond your own dashboard which doesn't seem to be something taught to new drivers.

...

Planning and vision. Planning and vision.

Planning and vision is vital. Seeing an overtaking opportuniy, assessing whether it's, and then executing it deftly is a great pleasure. Having enough horsepower to deal with problems caused by the overtakee is a good thing too :-)

I feel vindicated now . And yes horsepower helps but not squandering opportunities is the most important element.

[cerb4.5lee]

911hope said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I definitely don't overtake as much as I used to. Years ago(early to mid 1990's) I'd overtake everything that was in front of me without fail, whereas now it is a lot more difficult to do because of the traffic volume. So 9 times out of 10 I'll usually just sit behind cars taking it easy.

I don't have any time for cyclists though(I used to be one myself years ago), and cyclists nowadays seem to just be out there to deliberately piss the drivers of cars off from what I see now. I always used to ride single breast to try to make it as easy as possible to pass me, whereas now I see cyclists riding 3 or 4 abreast without any consideration as to what is going on behind them. It boils my piss.

So not a fan of cyclists then?
Out just to make you angry? That would seem like a poor motive.

As a cyclist, the issue of single file vs. a group is an interesting subject.
Take a group of 6 for instance. On a 2 lane road, they are best advised to ride 2 abreast as a short block, so presents like a slow moving car. Easier to overtake than a long train, which could be too long to overtake. The driver is more likely to give them proper space, rather than squeeze past close an dangerous.

The disadvantage is that the car following them has a mind set where he believes they are just there to upset that driver. Such a person may be inwardly fuming and capable of anything.

On a single track road, the same applies. But the 2 abreast principle is to prevent the dangerous overtake. In this case the wise cyclist looks for somewhere to duck into to let them past.

I can be a bit irrational at times to be fair!

I do genuinely think that anyone who rides a bicycle now are very brave people. I see the standard of driving(i.e terrible) and I think that I would almost expect to get knocked off my bike nowadays. I just couldn't do it now, however I used to really enjoy road riding(and off road mountain biking) years ago though for sure.

I remember cycling from Mansfield to Skegness a couple of times in a big group years ago, and I have very fond memories of that.

[NAAHD]

I sat behind a car doing 35 in a 60 because nobody would overtake. Definitely annoying but I’m guessing they were too scared and/or underpowered so didn’t want to risk it. The few times I’ve gone for an overtake, they usually speed up as I pull out. If they’re doing something ridiculously low and I’m the car directly behind them then I’ll find my moment. But I don’t want to end up crashing because of impatience either. Black boxes don’t help matters either

[whimsical ninja]

I can't help but think that this "every time I overtake, they speed up to prevent it" is mostly psychological. I overtake pretty frequently (on the rare occasions that I'm out on single carriageway country roads) and while it does happen from time to time, it's far from common.

Overtaking isn't generally taught in lessons and if done badly has pretty catastrophic consequences, so in a sense yes, it is dangerous. You shouldn't criticise people for not doing something that they feel unsafe doing. Certainly very few people will know/understand the right or wrong situations to do it (an offside junction or entrance, for example).

If you do end up in a queue of people behind a slow mover then just relax and enjoy the view, it's going to take a while, let thing sort themselves out in due course

[Johnnytheboy]

NAAHD said:

I sat behind a car doing 35 in a 60 because nobody would overtake. Definitely annoying but I’m guessing they were too scared and/or underpowered so didn’t want to risk it. The few times I’ve gone for an overtake, they usually speed up as I pull out.

They way some people react to being overtaken, it's not surprising some people just decide not to.

[brillomaster]

its really annoying - why are bikes allowed to overtake, but cars aren't? Bikes are just as loud, and just as fast, and just as 'breaking the speed limit' as cars, yet people actively leave gaps/pull slightly to the left to allow bikes to overtake, yet do the exact opposite when cars do it.

personally, i don't particularly like it when there is a bike right behind me - i'd much rather they overtake me so they're in front of me.

so why, when a car is right behind you, people actively try and keep them there, rather than encouraging them to overtake?

[brillomaster]

Also, overtaking isnt becoming a lost art, but being overtaken certainly is.

Sure, there are plenty of rules about when not to overtake, but so many people still get irate and object to cars overtaking them even on perfectly straight, well sighted country roads. if everyone observed HC 168 things would be so much better:

168
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

another question - if you're approaching something you know you're going to want to overtake, do you make it clear that you are wanting to overtake (ie with road positioning, switching on headlights etc) or do you hang back and maintain an element of surprise? if it was a single vehicle, i'd probably make it clear i was looking to overtake - but in a line of cars, signalling intent may just encourage the car in front of you to speed up and close any gap directly in front of them, exactly the opposite of what HC168 says to do.

[Johnnytheboy]

brillomaster said:

so why, when a car is right behind you, people actively try and keep them there, rather than encouraging them to overtake?

I think some people like the feeling of control over others.

[Sofa]

whimsical ninja said:

I can't help but think that this "every time I overtake, they speed up to prevent it" is mostly psychological. I overtake pretty frequently (on the rare occasions that I'm out on single carriageway country roads) and while it does happen from time to time, it's far from common.

Agreed, I’m one of those people who will overtake pretty much anyone who isn’t doing the limit at pretty much any safe opportunity, and can honestly say I can’t recall anyone ever attempting to block me overtaking. And while I’d like to think that I wouldn’t notice most dawdlers even attempting to in my 125i (especially with decent planning and a run up) even in a 120hp 1.6 diesel and a 90hp 1.6 petrol I never had issues… and I took both those cars up to Scotland on the A697 and had lost count of the number of overtakes I’d done by the time I got to Edinburgh.

Whimsical Ninja said:

Overtaking isn't generally taught in lessons and if done badly has pretty catastrophic consequences, so in a sense yes, it is dangerous. You shouldn't criticise people for not doing something that they feel unsafe doing. Certainly very few people will know/understand the right or wrong situations to do it (an offside junction or entrance, for example).

One thing I’m quite grateful to my instructor for was actually teaching me how to overtake- got stuck behind a tractor in an NSL who was doing about 30 and he talked me through the steps of overtaking. Think it was only my 3rd or 4th lesson so I feel many instructors probably would’ve said to sit behind and maybe leave a gap for other cars to overtake into- pretty brave on his part to trust a 17 year old lad with 4 hours of experience behind the wheel to assess oncoming traffic and make an overtake!

That said, most of my driving after that was done around town so if that situation hadn’t have happened to occur, I doubt it would have been covered at any point.

[cerb4.5lee]

whimsical ninja said:

I can't help but think that this "every time I overtake, they speed up to prevent it" is mostly psychological. I overtake pretty frequently (on the rare occasions that I'm out on single carriageway country roads) and while it does happen from time to time, it's far from common.

This happened to me only yesterday. A chap in a Vauxhall Zafira overtook the car in front of him and I followed, only for him to stay on the other side of the road so that I couldn't overtake him. My eldest daughter asked me why he did it, and I just said that some people just don't like being overtaken.

I did overtake him a bit further down the road though.

[Johnnytheboy]

The speeding up thing has definitely happened to me, most noticeably a few years back passing an Audi diesel estate, which produced a hilarious amount of smoke in attempting to do so, which was a bit of a giveaway.

[911hope]

cerb4.5lee said:

This happened to me only yesterday. A chap in a Vauxhall Zafira overtook the car in front of him and I followed, only for him to stay on the other side of the road so that I couldn't overtake him. My eldest daughter asked me why he did it, and I just said that some people just don't like being overtaken.

I did overtake him a bit further down the road though.

When you follow someone else on an overtake, you took a few risks that perhaps you were not aware of.

1. Did you make your own assessment of the road ahead and traffic approaching. If so great my many just blindly follow.

2. Your max speed is defined by the person you follow, so not all under your control.

3. Your pulling in place is determined by the person you follow.

4. If something happens that make the car you are following abort the overtake, then it could end very badly, so e you have blocked that option.

[911hope]

otolith said:

I'd rather overtake 3x2 than 6x1. I need the other lane either way.

That's the way to do it. Sadly very few people do.

Often people proudly say they leave 1.5m. that is the bare minimum and frankly not enough. When a 2m person falls sideways into a 1.5m gap, what happens to their head?

Your approach of 1 lane gap is excellent.

[cerb4.5lee]

911hope said:

cerb4.5lee said:

This happened to me only yesterday. A chap in a Vauxhall Zafira overtook the car in front of him and I followed, only for him to stay on the other side of the road so that I couldn't overtake him. My eldest daughter asked me why he did it, and I just said that some people just don't like being overtaken.

I did overtake him a bit further down the road though.

When you follow someone else on an overtake, you took a few risks that perhaps you were not aware of.

1. Did you make your own assessment of the road ahead and traffic approaching. If so great my many just blindly follow.

2. Your max speed is defined by the person you follow, so not all under your control.

3. Your pulling in place is determined by the person you follow.

4. If something happens that make the car you are following abort the overtake, then it could end very badly, so e you have blocked that option.

The road was properly clear and that was the only reason why I followed(I wouldn't usually do it). I've learnt from experience that it is a terrible idea normally to follow a slow car when overtaking, because they usually leave you hanging out there as you mention.

I expected him to just pull in after he'd overtook the car in front but he didn't, so I just casually pulled over and left him to it. I got the opportunity to pass him a bit later down the road, however I did wonder if he was going to be daft enough to try to block me even then though.

[cerb4.5lee]

Johnnytheboy said:

The speeding up thing has definitely happened to me, most noticeably a few years back passing an Audi diesel estate, which produced a hilarious amount of smoke in attempting to do so, which was a bit of a giveaway.

That has happened a load of times to me as well. I don't like overtaking in my 370Z all that much, because it is a NA engine and if the person I'm overtaking floors it-it makes it a lot more difficult to get past. You need the revs sky high in the 370Z to overtake.

I don't have that problem in the M4 though, and that doesn't have any issues because most of the performance is in the low to mid range in comparison. Plus it has a DCT gearbox so you can just plant it, whereas the 370Z is a manual so you can be faffing around with the gearbox.

I've never understood why folk boot it when you try to overtake, and it is almost like they get offended about you doing it.

[911hope]

cerb4.5lee said:

That has happened a load of times to me as well. I don't like overtaking in my 370Z all that much, because it is a NA engine and if the person I'm overtaking floors it-it makes it a lot more difficult to get past. You need the revs sky high in the 370Z to overtake.

I don't have that problem in the M4 though, and that doesn't have any issues because most of the performance is in the low to mid range in comparison. Plus it has a DCT gearbox so you can just plant it, whereas the 370Z is a manual so you can be faffing around with the gearbox.

I've never understood why folk boot it when you try to overtake, and it is almost like they get offended about you doing it.

You must be very unlucky to have people seeking to prevent your overtaking. But above that they are in cars that can fend off a 370Z,with >300PS, which must have started accelerating some time before they could respond, having changed down gears in preparation for the pass.

Personally I have never experienced people behaving like this.

So very unlucky indeed.

[trashbat]

911hope said:

You must be very unlucky to have people seeking to prevent your overtaking. But above that they are in cars that can fend off a 370Z,with >300PS, which must have started accelerating some time before they could respond, having changed down gears in preparation for the pass.

Personally I have never experienced people behaving like this.

So very unlucky indeed.

They don't have to outright prevent it or outpace you to make it much more difficult / unsafe / annoying.

I don't know what speed you usually get to in an overtake. I try and keep it vaguely legal. That might mean a differential speed of 10-20mph. If they speed up even a little, I need to either up my threshold, take longer than planned, or abort.

Unfortunately, the more space you give them, and the nicer you are about it - not surprise full-bore passes from right off their bumper - the more opportunity they have to mess you about.

I'm not saying this happens regularly but I have had people be dicks about it.

I also find, less maliciously, that being overtaken wakes people up and they change their speed subconsciously. This happens a lot on motorways where I move out to pass someone and they speed up just enough to cancel it out or turn it into an elephant race, and I'm pretty sure it's incompetence rather than deliberate.