When would you use your indicators?
Discussion
BOR said:
Option1
Option 2
But only to emphasise what I'm doing. In my opinion , signaling on a roundabout is completely worthless.
Why is it worthless? Option 2
But only to emphasise what I'm doing. In my opinion , signaling on a roundabout is completely worthless.
I'm going to assume I have missed something here, but if you are saying that signalling on a roundabout in general is worthless, then you ought to rethink this.
If I'm approaching a roundabout and you are on it, I would greatly benefit from you signalling to inform my decision making, so I assume as a competent driver you would obviously be signalling your exit.
Those that fail to signal properly on roundabouts (either failing entirely or misleading) are wilfully causing more problems around them regarding traffic flow and are disregarding the safety of themselves and others.
Only an absolute fool would willingly not indicate their intentions to others on the road, especially in the knowledge that other road users cannot be relied upon to make safe decision without help.
Rotary Potato said:
They say a picture speaks a thousand words - so this might help illustrate my point ...
[Img]https://i.imgur.com/SFkybn8.jpg[/thumb]
The car is the blue dot a 3 o'clock, wanting to turn right to 12 o'clock.
The pedestrian is the red dot on the right side of the 12 o'clock road, and wanting to cross to the left side of the same road.
The pedestrian is impossible to observe from the car, but the car can be observed by the pedestrian.
A signal from the car would help inform the pedestrian to delay beginning their crossing.
I'd agree with you here. If there's doubt, then indicate. It's the process of questioning who is around you that has the value.[Img]https://i.imgur.com/SFkybn8.jpg[/thumb]
The car is the blue dot a 3 o'clock, wanting to turn right to 12 o'clock.
The pedestrian is the red dot on the right side of the 12 o'clock road, and wanting to cross to the left side of the same road.
The pedestrian is impossible to observe from the car, but the car can be observed by the pedestrian.
A signal from the car would help inform the pedestrian to delay beginning their crossing.
What I'd ask you about is that it seems your decision as a pedestrian goes like this:
There's a car indicating who might run me over: I'll not cross yet
There's a car not indicating who might run me over: I'll cross now
Instead of:
There's no car at all: I'll cross now
Seems quite, umm, bold?
MikeM6 said:
Why is it worthless?
If I'm approaching a roundabout and you are on it, I would greatly benefit from you signalling, ...
Nope.If I'm approaching a roundabout and you are on it, I would greatly benefit from you signalling, ...
You can't rely on my signal because you don't know if I've left the indicator flashing since my last left/right turn by mistake, or if I've mis-judged when to activate the indicator or I've changed my mind at the last second and decide to continue around the roundabout rather than exiting.
You can do NOTHING until you see my car PHYSICALLY exit the roundabout before you pull out.
BOR said:
MikeM6 said:
Why is it worthless?
If I'm approaching a roundabout and you are on it, I would greatly benefit from you signalling, ...
Nope.If I'm approaching a roundabout and you are on it, I would greatly benefit from you signalling, ...
You can't rely on my signal because you don't know if I've left the indicator flashing since my last left/right turn by mistake, or if I've mis-judged when to activate the indicator or I've changed my mind at the last second and decide to continue around the roundabout rather than exiting.
You can do NOTHING until you see my car PHYSICALLY exit the roundabout before you pull out.
A competent driver would always signal to others their intentions. A failure to do so is only invites others to make decisions based on guesswork. I like having others no crashing into me, so I try and help them make decisions with as much information as possible to avoid them doing this.
MikeM6 said:
BOR said:
MikeM6 said:
Why is it worthless?
If I'm approaching a roundabout and you are on it, I would greatly benefit from you signalling, ...
Nope.If I'm approaching a roundabout and you are on it, I would greatly benefit from you signalling, ...
You can't rely on my signal because you don't know if I've left the indicator flashing since my last left/right turn by mistake, or if I've mis-judged when to activate the indicator or I've changed my mind at the last second and decide to continue around the roundabout rather than exiting.
You can do NOTHING until you see my car PHYSICALLY exit the roundabout before you pull out.
A competent driver would always signal to others their intentions. A failure to do so is only invites others to make decisions based on guesswork. I like having others no crashing into me, so I try and help them make decisions with as much information as possible to avoid them doing this.
Suppose I'm a pedestrian planning to cross a road, only one vehicle could possibly be in conflict and only if it turns right at the T junction it's approaching.
There are a number of scenarios.
1. Physically impossible for it to turn right.
2a. Possible to turn right but illegal, left turn signal.
2b. Ditto but no signal.
3a. Possible and legal to turn right, left turn signal.
3b. Ditto but no signal.
3c. Ditto but right turn signal.
Given my two options are cross or wait, I'd cross in scenario 1 but otherwise wait.
I can see some might distinguish between 2 and 3. But it's difficult to see why someone would cross in 2b but not 2a, or 3c but not 3b or 3a.
If I was the driver I'd give a signal in scenario 3 and let any pedestrians worry about whether to trust it, but not in scenario 2.
There are a number of scenarios.
1. Physically impossible for it to turn right.
2a. Possible to turn right but illegal, left turn signal.
2b. Ditto but no signal.
3a. Possible and legal to turn right, left turn signal.
3b. Ditto but no signal.
3c. Ditto but right turn signal.
Given my two options are cross or wait, I'd cross in scenario 1 but otherwise wait.
I can see some might distinguish between 2 and 3. But it's difficult to see why someone would cross in 2b but not 2a, or 3c but not 3b or 3a.
If I was the driver I'd give a signal in scenario 3 and let any pedestrians worry about whether to trust it, but not in scenario 2.
BOR said:
Again, no.
Your planning is IDENTICAL whether I signal or not.
You cannot make any assumptions based on the flashing of a bulb.
You cannot move off until you have physical conformation of my car exiting the roundabout.
Your actions will be identical, whether I am signaling or not.
No, you are missing the point. I suspect you are confusing planning with actions. Your planning is IDENTICAL whether I signal or not.
You cannot make any assumptions based on the flashing of a bulb.
You cannot move off until you have physical conformation of my car exiting the roundabout.
Your actions will be identical, whether I am signaling or not.
My planning factors in the information available to me, which include your signalling and your positioning. The more information you give me, the better my planning. As a competent driver I don't rely on your signal, but I factor it in.
My actions follow the planning, which ensures that I factor in room for error.
Failing to indicate is an invitation to make assumptions. Please do indicate correctly as there is not good reason for you not to and many good reasons why you should.
I wonder if your way of thinking is why so many seem to struggle with using indicators. Maybe many assume it's arrogance or laziness, but it's actually considered but flawed thinking.
MikeM6 said:
My planning factors in the information available to me, which include your signalling and your positioning. The more information you give me, the better my planning. As a competent driver I don't rely on your signal, but I factor it in.
My actions follow the planning, which ensures that I factor in room for error.
OK. Let's try it a different way.My actions follow the planning, which ensures that I factor in room for error.
Please detail how your planning differs between the situation where I am signaling correctly, and where I am not signaling correctly.
Be specific and spell out the details of what changes. Don't use any vague phrases you think you've understood from Roadcraft or The Highway Code.
BOR said:
MikeM6 said:
My planning factors in the information available to me, which include your signalling and your positioning. The more information you give me, the better my planning. As a competent driver I don't rely on your signal, but I factor it in.
My actions follow the planning, which ensures that I factor in room for error.
OK. Let's try it a different way.My actions follow the planning, which ensures that I factor in room for error.
Please detail how your planning differs between the situation where I am signaling correctly, and where I am not signaling correctly.
Be specific and spell out the details of what changes. Don't use any vague phrases you think you've understood from Roadcraft or The Highway Code.
I don't believe you actually think that.
BOR said:
OK. Let's try it a different way.
Please detail how your planning differs between the situation where I am signaling correctly, and where I am not signaling correctly.
Be specific and spell out the details of what changes. Don't use any vague phrases you think you've understood from Roadcraft or The Highway Code.
Ah good, looks like your are ready to learn, a little condescending, but nevertheless I'm pleased you are approaching this with a growth mentality.Please detail how your planning differs between the situation where I am signaling correctly, and where I am not signaling correctly.
Be specific and spell out the details of what changes. Don't use any vague phrases you think you've understood from Roadcraft or The Highway Code.
My planning of any action I take on the road is based on all the information available to me, which includes your signalling, your position, your speed and also the conditions and layout of the road. I also look at what others are doing. The strength of that planning is based on the quantity of the information available to me, so the more I know the less assumptions I make.
You signalling your intention, combined with your road positioning and speed, gives me a probability of your next action. This means I can plan my action and be prepared to carry this out swiftly and safely, once I am satisfied it is safe to do so.
But you wanted specificity, so let's use the roundabout example. I'm waiting to join a round and you are on it. You want to leave at the exit before this crosses my path, so like a competent driver, you signal that intention so all around you can understand. I see your signal and look for further evidence to reinforce this intention, including your position and speed. Once I have this I can then plan and prepare my entry to the roundabout, once I have confirmation. This is a smooth and planned entry, I'm ready to go, not fumbling around because I wasn't sure what you were doing.
So what if you don't indicate? Now I am left to guess your intention based on less information. Depending on the layout, I might have no idea what you are doing until you have done it, so I cannot really prepare. Are you turning off, are you carrying on round... I don't know. I can guess though....
And there we have it... You have failed to signal your intention, ASSUMING that those around you will correctly guess and/or wait until you complete your manoeuvre. You made the mistake of assuming competence in others that you have no right nor reason to do. In others words, you miss placed your trust in the general motoring public.
It's very flattering that you assume I am good enough wait for you, but it's a risky approach based on the driving standards out there. So, from here on in, you should approach all other road users as if they need to be clearly told what you are doing. Because they do, it helps to stop them crashing into you.
On a serious note, if you fail to signal leaving a roundabout and hit a pedestrian who choses to cross because they didn't know your were turning, who do you think is held as responsible?
MikeM6 said:
But you wanted specificity, so let's use the roundabout example. I'm waiting to join a round and you are on it. You want to leave at the exit before this crosses my path, so like a competent driver, you signal that intention so all around you can understand. I see your signal and look for further evidence to reinforce this intention, including your position and speed. Once I have this I can then plan and prepare my entry to the roundabout, once I have confirmation. This is a smooth and planned entry, I'm ready to go, not fumbling around because I wasn't sure what you were doing.
I suspect you are starting to realise where you have gone wrong, but I'll spell it out.Your planning starts when you first see my car, and at that point you have to plan for two possible scenarios in parallel:
1.Will I exit.
2.Will I continue.
Using my flashing bulb as additional information will be worthless to you, and, may indeed lull you into a false sense of security and bias your planning for the wrong outcome. It's low-value information, even if it is correct.
If I'm indicating, then yes, you are right, the probability is that I will be exiting, but it's an assumption, which you only need to get wrong once.
Please Mike, don't rely on a flashing bulb. It's not worth the risk.
BOR said:
I suspect you are starting to realise where you have gone wrong, but I'll spell it out.
Your planning starts when you first see my car, and at that point you have to plan for two possible scenarios in parallel:
1.Will I exit.
2.Will I continue.
Using my flashing bulb as additional information will be worthless to you, and, may indeed lull you into a false sense of security and bias your planning for the wrong outcome. It's low-value information, even if it is correct.
If I'm indicating, then yes, you are right, the probability is that I will be exiting, but it's an assumption, which you only need to get wrong once.
Please Mike, don't rely on a flashing bulb. It's not worth the risk.
Well, I tried. You really need to go back and rethink this one. Your planning starts when you first see my car, and at that point you have to plan for two possible scenarios in parallel:
1.Will I exit.
2.Will I continue.
Using my flashing bulb as additional information will be worthless to you, and, may indeed lull you into a false sense of security and bias your planning for the wrong outcome. It's low-value information, even if it is correct.
If I'm indicating, then yes, you are right, the probability is that I will be exiting, but it's an assumption, which you only need to get wrong once.
Please Mike, don't rely on a flashing bulb. It's not worth the risk.
A good place to begin that is to stop assuming that others won't make assumptions, and start helping them make better decisions by informing them of your intentions. Whether you like it or not, indicators are there for a reason and are relied on to take the guesswork out of others driving. Stop thinking of me, and start thinking more broadly.
Drivers will make assumptions whether you indicate or not. You can help them by indicating, or you can not help them and leave it up to them. You increase the probability of their mistakes by not indicating.
Honestly, you shouldn't need this explaining to you, but it is not lost on me that you are being told this by a BMW owner.
So let's leave it at that and enjoy a Friday evening. I shall leave it that, and I shall continue to indicate my intentions on the road.
BOR said:
I suspect you are starting to realise where you have gone wrong, but I'll spell it out.
Your planning starts when you first see my car, and at that point you have to plan for two possible scenarios in parallel:
1.Will I exit.
2.Will I continue.
Using my flashing bulb as additional information will be worthless to you, and, may indeed lull you into a false sense of security and bias your planning for the wrong outcome. It's low-value information, even if it is correct.
If I'm indicating, then yes, you are right, the probability is that I will be exiting, but it's an assumption, which you only need to get wrong once.
Please Mike, don't rely on a flashing bulb. It's not worth the risk.
Having a patronising know-it-all attitude is rarely a good look, but when it accompanies such utter drooling nonsense as it does here and in the posts above, it makes for an overall package of spectacular foolishness.Your planning starts when you first see my car, and at that point you have to plan for two possible scenarios in parallel:
1.Will I exit.
2.Will I continue.
Using my flashing bulb as additional information will be worthless to you, and, may indeed lull you into a false sense of security and bias your planning for the wrong outcome. It's low-value information, even if it is correct.
If I'm indicating, then yes, you are right, the probability is that I will be exiting, but it's an assumption, which you only need to get wrong once.
Please Mike, don't rely on a flashing bulb. It's not worth the risk.
Looks like there's general consensus over the use of indicators here, although BOR is touching on a valid point: the use of indicators is only one way that we communicate to others our intentions, and only one way of several that we should be using to work out the other drivers intentions.
If we're approaching a roundabout we should be looking at the other vehicles speed, change of speed, direction of travel and maneouvering to assess where it's likely to go; if the indicator confirms that then we're more confident at planning our move, if it conflicts then we'll hesitate until the behaviour is clearer. But even if the indicator confirms what we believe, we shouldn't act until the other vehicle has committed to its direction of travel and/or it is safe to do so.
The point about using indicators is it allows people to understand your intentions quicker, and in heavy traffic can let them exploit gaps in the flow caused be vehicles exiting before them; choosing not to indicate hampers the flow of traffic, and is a bit of a dick move.
If we're approaching a roundabout we should be looking at the other vehicles speed, change of speed, direction of travel and maneouvering to assess where it's likely to go; if the indicator confirms that then we're more confident at planning our move, if it conflicts then we'll hesitate until the behaviour is clearer. But even if the indicator confirms what we believe, we shouldn't act until the other vehicle has committed to its direction of travel and/or it is safe to do so.
The point about using indicators is it allows people to understand your intentions quicker, and in heavy traffic can let them exploit gaps in the flow caused be vehicles exiting before them; choosing not to indicate hampers the flow of traffic, and is a bit of a dick move.
hiccy18 said:
Looks like there's general consensus over the use of indicators here, although BOR is touching on a valid point: the use of indicators is only one way that we communicate to others our intentions, and only one way of several that we should be using to work out the other drivers intentions.
If we're approaching a roundabout we should be looking at the other vehicles speed, change of speed, direction of travel and maneouvering to assess where it's likely to go; if the indicator confirms that then we're more confident at planning our move, if it conflicts then we'll hesitate until the behaviour is clearer. But even if the indicator confirms what we believe, we shouldn't act until the other vehicle has committed to its direction of travel and/or it is safe to do so.
The point about using indicators is it allows people to understand your intentions quicker, and in heavy traffic can let them exploit gaps in the flow caused be vehicles exiting before them; choosing not to indicate hampers the flow of traffic, and is a bit of a dick move.
What does this mean in practice? Either you end up moving or not.If we're approaching a roundabout we should be looking at the other vehicles speed, change of speed, direction of travel and maneouvering to assess where it's likely to go; if the indicator confirms that then we're more confident at planning our move, if it conflicts then we'll hesitate until the behaviour is clearer. But even if the indicator confirms what we believe, we shouldn't act until the other vehicle has committed to its direction of travel and/or it is safe to do so.
The point about using indicators is it allows people to understand your intentions quicker, and in heavy traffic can let them exploit gaps in the flow caused be vehicles exiting before them; choosing not to indicate hampers the flow of traffic, and is a bit of a dick move.
Lost ranger said:
hiccy18 said:
Looks like there's general consensus over the use of indicators here, although BOR is touching on a valid point: the use of indicators is only one way that we communicate to others our intentions, and only one way of several that we should be using to work out the other drivers intentions.
If we're approaching a roundabout we should be looking at the other vehicles speed, change of speed, direction of travel and maneouvering to assess where it's likely to go; if the indicator confirms that then we're more confident at planning our move, if it conflicts then we'll hesitate until the behaviour is clearer. But even if the indicator confirms what we believe, we shouldn't act until the other vehicle has committed to its direction of travel and/or it is safe to do so.
The point about using indicators is it allows people to understand your intentions quicker, and in heavy traffic can let them exploit gaps in the flow caused be vehicles exiting before them; choosing not to indicate hampers the flow of traffic, and is a bit of a dick move.
What does this mean in practice? Either you end up moving or not.If we're approaching a roundabout we should be looking at the other vehicles speed, change of speed, direction of travel and maneouvering to assess where it's likely to go; if the indicator confirms that then we're more confident at planning our move, if it conflicts then we'll hesitate until the behaviour is clearer. But even if the indicator confirms what we believe, we shouldn't act until the other vehicle has committed to its direction of travel and/or it is safe to do so.
The point about using indicators is it allows people to understand your intentions quicker, and in heavy traffic can let them exploit gaps in the flow caused be vehicles exiting before them; choosing not to indicate hampers the flow of traffic, and is a bit of a dick move.
When we're dealing with moving traffic we're anticipating how vehicles will move all the time: having "more confidence" means one scenario seems much more probable than others, so you make the decision to act sooner. If the cars speed, direction of travel, the way the driver is looking, indicating and maneouvering the vehicle suggests that they're pulling off at the exit before you, you'll be planning to pull away as soon as that looks confirmed, whereas if their behaviour was vague you'll be hesitating, waiting to see them hit a point of no return.
hiccy18 said:
You're going to end up moving at some point anyway, so your question isn't whether you move or not, but when.
When we're dealing with moving traffic we're anticipating how vehicles will move all the time: having "more confidence" means one scenario seems much more probable than others, so you make the decision to act sooner. If the cars speed, direction of travel, the way the driver is looking, indicating and maneouvering the vehicle suggests that they're pulling off at the exit before you, you'll be planning to pull away as soon as that looks confirmed, whereas if their behaviour was vague you'll be hesitating, waiting to see them hit a point of no return.
That's my point, I'd wait until they hit a point of no return anyway, otherwise you are taking a calculated risk. It's not unusual for a driver to be genuinely intending to take a certain roundabout exit then realise at the last split second that they actually wanted a different exit and carry on round the roundabout, even if they have already signalled.When we're dealing with moving traffic we're anticipating how vehicles will move all the time: having "more confidence" means one scenario seems much more probable than others, so you make the decision to act sooner. If the cars speed, direction of travel, the way the driver is looking, indicating and maneouvering the vehicle suggests that they're pulling off at the exit before you, you'll be planning to pull away as soon as that looks confirmed, whereas if their behaviour was vague you'll be hesitating, waiting to see them hit a point of no return.
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