IAM/ROSPA and Negative Perceptions
Discussion
JonRB said:
As I think Don said earlier (possibly in another thread) knowledge without experience is dangerous, as is experience without knowledge. Both are requried. And in the same way an advanced driver should be skilled in both reactive and proactive driving. Reactive alone is not sufficient.
Too true!!!Nail, head, hit!!!!
Yugguy said:
I did consider an advanced driving course but then I heard, and I apologise if this is incorrect, that I would be taught things like not signalling if there's no other car around. Now I thought, just because you can't see another car doesn't mean there isn't one there, and this put me off taking the course completely.
This was one of the very first things that I discussed with my Observer.
The bottom line for me is .... if there is clearly no-one around that would benefit from my signal - then I don't signal. For example - coming off a motorway junction - with no cars around.
However, if I am at a junction of which I do not have clear visibility of any other cars - then I do indicate, in case a vehicle 'suddenly' appears. For example - at a blind junction - no cars behind me - but a car may appear which I would not see until I am at the junction itself.
I hope that makes sense. I've probably not explained it too well.
Bottom line - if it's blatently obvious that there is no-one around to benefit from your signal - then don't. if there is a possibility that someone might appear, but not until the last second, then I do.
K
The indicating thing seems to be a real hang-up for some.
The way I view it is that thinking about your indicating, rather than it being a thoughtless automatic action, is a good thing as it raises your situational awareness. The very fact that you are questioning whether or not to indicate shows that you are analysing your surroundings and the other road users around you.
In a great majority of cases you will indicate anyway, simply because you cannot totally rule out the sudden appearance of another road user who may benefit from your signal.
If you look at it that way then it makes a little more sense.
The way I view it is that thinking about your indicating, rather than it being a thoughtless automatic action, is a good thing as it raises your situational awareness. The very fact that you are questioning whether or not to indicate shows that you are analysing your surroundings and the other road users around you.
In a great majority of cases you will indicate anyway, simply because you cannot totally rule out the sudden appearance of another road user who may benefit from your signal.
If you look at it that way then it makes a little more sense.
Yugguy said:
I did consider an advanced driving course but then I heard, and I apologise if this is incorrect, that I would be taught things like not signalling if there's no other car around. Now I thought, just because you can't see another car doesn't mean there isn't one there, and this put me off taking the course completely.
Blimey! I suggest you go along to an IAM course see what you get taught and, if the explanations satisfy you, you can decide what *you* think is right.
You do seem to get put off rather easily! One might question why? This isn't the first thing that "put you off" is it?
IAM advice about indicating is...
THINK about indicating. A learner driver is taught to indicate as a matter of drill. Its largely because the poor dears are so occupied/terrified by simply being in the car that its better to give them something to do by rote...
The IAM expects someone passing an Advanced Driving test to do far better than that.
THINK, LOOK. Is there someone who can benefit from a signal? To whom will you be signalling? How will it benefit them? e.g. Indicating when leaving a roundabout allows drivers joining to do it more easily. etc. On a test - at a tight junction or difficult turning one might very well explain to an examiner: "I am making a signal. Whilst I cannot currently see anyone who might benefit there is a possibility that another vehicle may rapidly emerge from that direction - they may benefit from my signal and use it to avoid me." I've done that.
If there is no-one around. And no building corners/side roads with obscuring hedges/somewhere else a vehicle or other road user could rapidly emerge from then there is little point making a signal.
It is the observation and thought process behind the decision to signal or not signal that the course is trying to develop.
Signalling by rote unnecessarily is a symptom of poor observation. I always ask an Associate if they signal with no need: "To whom were you signalling?". If they say "Errr. no idea. I didn't look." clearly that is a problem. If they say "I didn't like the look of that blind entrance. I thought if someone came out too quickly they could benefit...then that's precisely the thinking we're trying to develop! (And would be OK on a test...)
Yugguy said:
I did consider an advanced driving course but then I heard, and I apologise if this is incorrect, that I would be taught things like not signalling if there's no other car around. Now I thought, just because you can't see another car doesn't mean there isn't one there, and this put me off taking the course completely.
You sound like the sort of person that will listen too advice so if i may be so bold as to give you some.
You are wasting your time trying you get your non IAM point of veiw across to these people.
I made a very similair point about not understanding what the IAM was all about,and young DON came back as Mr Angry which to me says hell of a lot about his temper never mind his driving.
He did offer an apology then I put a sinario to him which though I say so myself only a numb scull would disagree with.
Guess what?, some IAM came back with a "well I would`nt have done that young man".
DON still has`nt come back with his opinion on what I did and so all I can say is that the silence is deafening.
Can quote Corporal Jones from Dads Army "They don`t like it up um"
bmw114 - I've met Don and his vitriolic post to you was quite out of character and he did apologise to you.
Having said that, he doesn't suffer fools gladly.
Actually, I'm glad you posted on this thread because so far you have shown yourself to be the epitome of "IAM/ROSPA and Negative Perceptions" and this thread would have been incomplete without a contribution from you.
Perhaps, since this forum is entitled "Advanced Driving" you might do us the honour of starting a few threads where you make positive contributions drawn from your immeasurable depths of professional driving experience instead of constantly undermining the efforts of the IAM and those mere mortals that seek to improve their driving?
Edit: Yugguy said he was put off my what he saw as the faintly ridiculous idea of not indicating. I hardly call that a "non-IAM point of view".
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 8th September 15:00
Having said that, he doesn't suffer fools gladly.
Actually, I'm glad you posted on this thread because so far you have shown yourself to be the epitome of "IAM/ROSPA and Negative Perceptions" and this thread would have been incomplete without a contribution from you.
Perhaps, since this forum is entitled "Advanced Driving" you might do us the honour of starting a few threads where you make positive contributions drawn from your immeasurable depths of professional driving experience instead of constantly undermining the efforts of the IAM and those mere mortals that seek to improve their driving?
Edit: Yugguy said he was put off my what he saw as the faintly ridiculous idea of not indicating. I hardly call that a "non-IAM point of view".
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 8th September 15:00
bmw114 said:
I put a sinario to him which though I say so myself only a numb scull would disagree with.
Guess what?, some IAM came back with a "well I would`nt have done that young man".
Well I guess I must be a numbscull then? My response was that you should have avoided being in that situation in the first place, although I don't remember referring to you as a 'young man'. I have no connection with the IAM, not that this seems particularly relevant.
bmw114 said:
DON still has`nt come back with his opinion on what I did and so all I can say is that the silence is deafening.
Check the thread. I posted. I was even polite and I didn't even disagree with you.
Jon's quite right when he said I don't suffer fools gladly...but I'm willing to give most people the benefit of the doubt.
But I wish people would make comments from a position of knowledge rather than hearsay.
Apparently they persecuted early Christians because they drank blood. and ate babies, you know.
Jon RB I did think about quoting you but that might just make me look childish.
When i first read your comments I thought you were being sarcastic then on reading it again i am pretty sure you are, but never mind.
May i offer the hand of friendship and say and i have already said this, if everbody drove like you lot profess to do the roads would be a safer place.
But every time someone says something about their opinion on driving matters some IAM gets up on his soapbox.
The comment that Yugguy made (Don i`v just noticed you come in, i`ll finnish this first)about signaling even when there is nobody there is exactly what i do.
By doing this you get into the good habit of signaling, how often do you see people not signaling at and on roundabouts?, every day.
Whoever started this thread made the remark that IAM comes across as dull and because you won`t or should i say sometimes won`t listen to your critics you are burying you heads in the sand.
If you sound off at me so easily what are you like behind the wheel, stay calm , stay polite.
This is only my opinion but i`m sure a Pyschanalyst would have a field day with some of your comments.
Count off the negative perceptions now,perhaps i should become a IAM (only joking)
CHILL
When i first read your comments I thought you were being sarcastic then on reading it again i am pretty sure you are, but never mind.
May i offer the hand of friendship and say and i have already said this, if everbody drove like you lot profess to do the roads would be a safer place.
But every time someone says something about their opinion on driving matters some IAM gets up on his soapbox.
The comment that Yugguy made (Don i`v just noticed you come in, i`ll finnish this first)about signaling even when there is nobody there is exactly what i do.
By doing this you get into the good habit of signaling, how often do you see people not signaling at and on roundabouts?, every day.
Whoever started this thread made the remark that IAM comes across as dull and because you won`t or should i say sometimes won`t listen to your critics you are burying you heads in the sand.
If you sound off at me so easily what are you like behind the wheel, stay calm , stay polite.
This is only my opinion but i`m sure a Pyschanalyst would have a field day with some of your comments.
Count off the negative perceptions now,perhaps i should become a IAM (only joking)
CHILL
[quote=GreenV8S]
although I don't remember referring to you as a 'young man'
I admit I through that in for comical effect.
If you saw a photo of me you would have understood that.May be we should both join the IAM.
Oh no i`ve just remembered i`ve got a sense of humour, they would`nt let me in
although I don't remember referring to you as a 'young man'
I admit I through that in for comical effect.
If you saw a photo of me you would have understood that.May be we should both join the IAM.
Oh no i`ve just remembered i`ve got a sense of humour, they would`nt let me in
bmw114 said:A little. But don't worry, I had my tongue in my cheek as I typed so it wasn't nasty sarcasm.
When i first read your comments I thought you were being sarcastic then on reading it again i am pretty sure you are, but never mind.
I agree that the IAM does have an image problem. Indeed, that is the topic of this thread.
I assure you that I, and many other members including Don, are not your typical middle-aged hat-and-cardigan-wearing Rover 75 drivers shuffling the steering wheel and obeying a set of rigid rules. Far from it. For a start, I can't imagine many fuddy-duddies running performance cars.
Indeed, if you were to do a fast-road course like RideDrive you'll find that they teach a modified form of the IAM 'System of Car Control'. That's hardly surprising since both RideDrive instructors and IAM examiners either are or have been Police Class 1 drivers, and the Class 1 driving programme is itself based on RoadCraft which is also the basis for the IAM.
RideDrive, like me personally, have adopted the best bits of RoadCraft / IAM and discarded the bits that do not fit in with their requirements / philosophy.
This is what frustrates me so much. People seem quite happy to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' and dismiss the IAM due to their preconceptions and/or misconceptions.
There were parts of the IAM training I simply couldn't get on with. I just learnt to do them to satisfy my observer and then the examiner and then immediately discarded them. The net effect was that my driving standard improved. This seemed like a fair compromise to me - after all, where else can you get that level of driving tuition for a mere £85 for the year? By contrast a half-day RideDrive course is £135.
Indeed, I was able to make best use of a half-day RideDrive course because they didn't have to teach me the System, so we were able to immediately move onto more advanced (and fun) stuff. Better value-for-money for me.
Some of the IAM's dogma stems from the fact they have to seen to be squeaky-clean. They can't officially advocate speeding. However, since it is a voluntary organisation you will find that it varies enormously from region-to-region and, indeed, from person to person. Therefore the perception of the IAM and the reality of it may indeed be very different.
I just think you are being a little hard and unfair on the IAM. You seem to have an axe to grind and seem intent on putting people off them. I don't understand why that is so when they have had such a positive effect on the driving standards of so many people and are one of the few cost-effective ways for an ordinary member of the public to increase their driving skill.
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 8th September 16:08
I would like to make a suggestion has to how you might deal with non IAM comments in future.
If someone showing some signs of common sense tells you of an incident that they have experienced, you might answer them this way.
Yes i can see were your coming from and you handled that quite well but might you not have considered doing this ................
There is more that one way to get your point across.
Get them on side first then give them the hard sell.
There is nothing more infuriating than some one saying, "well of course i would`nt of got myself in that position".
If you keep a safe distance from the truck in front and the one behind is on your bumper, you will be the meat in the sandwich if it all goes pear shaped or should that be buttie shaped.
My best advice for any car driver on the motorway is always drive faster than trucks, its safer for you and safer for them.(they don`t have to pull out into the centre lane and slow other people down to get round you).
Rant over
If someone showing some signs of common sense tells you of an incident that they have experienced, you might answer them this way.
Yes i can see were your coming from and you handled that quite well but might you not have considered doing this ................
There is more that one way to get your point across.
Get them on side first then give them the hard sell.
There is nothing more infuriating than some one saying, "well of course i would`nt of got myself in that position".
If you keep a safe distance from the truck in front and the one behind is on your bumper, you will be the meat in the sandwich if it all goes pear shaped or should that be buttie shaped.
My best advice for any car driver on the motorway is always drive faster than trucks, its safer for you and safer for them.(they don`t have to pull out into the centre lane and slow other people down to get round you).
Rant over
My God at last it looks like this thread has run it's course. Being new to this site I have been watching with interest different topics in different forums and I've come to the conclusion that it is just a site for people to spout off without a lot of them giving any constructive comments to the questions asked. I have watched with interest this particular thread and feel that I now have to say something.
IAM drivers - all of you, its not that people think you are dull but that you like to give the impression that you are superior. Because you've had 'Specialised' training and I use the word loosely, doesn't give you an automatic right to think you are better than the rest of the drivers on the road,you might get told that, but all it appears to give you is some sort of ego boost.
Yes I accept that there are a lot of idiots out there, some of which may need re-training to drive, and being involved as I am from time to time in high speed police escorts - not chases - I can tell you definately that I would'nt want some of those police drivers teaching any of my family to drive, so don't use them as a symbol of high standard driving. What they learn and what they practice are two different things, like all drivers.
It is not what you IAM say on these sites, you may be quite right in your opinions, but its the way you say it. It seems to be presented in a way to put down people who can't boast IAM standards.
I might not agree with BMW in all of what he says, but for Christ sake, give your opinion with a bit of humility. Yes the IAM probably does need to alter it's image and perhaps it could start by telling members that they should not go around acting and talking as though they are Gods and right in everything they do and say.
As a finishing comment, I was behind a driver for approx 20 miles on the M6 not long back who stayed the whole time in the centre lane apart from the occasional move into the fast lane to overtake, but then back into the centre lane. He eventually pulled into the services at Cawley and so did I and I had to ask him if he knew the highway code regarding motorway driving and how staying in the centre lane was not part of it. His answer was that he was fine to stay in the centre lane as he was not impeding anyone!!!! He strengthed this by adding he was a member of IAM, so he must have known what he was taking about eh, personally I think he was just trying to shut me up. But if he is a memeber of IAM he hasn't done you lot any favours has he? He was definately not one of the flat-cap brigade either.
Amen
IAM drivers - all of you, its not that people think you are dull but that you like to give the impression that you are superior. Because you've had 'Specialised' training and I use the word loosely, doesn't give you an automatic right to think you are better than the rest of the drivers on the road,you might get told that, but all it appears to give you is some sort of ego boost.
Yes I accept that there are a lot of idiots out there, some of which may need re-training to drive, and being involved as I am from time to time in high speed police escorts - not chases - I can tell you definately that I would'nt want some of those police drivers teaching any of my family to drive, so don't use them as a symbol of high standard driving. What they learn and what they practice are two different things, like all drivers.
It is not what you IAM say on these sites, you may be quite right in your opinions, but its the way you say it. It seems to be presented in a way to put down people who can't boast IAM standards.
I might not agree with BMW in all of what he says, but for Christ sake, give your opinion with a bit of humility. Yes the IAM probably does need to alter it's image and perhaps it could start by telling members that they should not go around acting and talking as though they are Gods and right in everything they do and say.
As a finishing comment, I was behind a driver for approx 20 miles on the M6 not long back who stayed the whole time in the centre lane apart from the occasional move into the fast lane to overtake, but then back into the centre lane. He eventually pulled into the services at Cawley and so did I and I had to ask him if he knew the highway code regarding motorway driving and how staying in the centre lane was not part of it. His answer was that he was fine to stay in the centre lane as he was not impeding anyone!!!! He strengthed this by adding he was a member of IAM, so he must have known what he was taking about eh, personally I think he was just trying to shut me up. But if he is a memeber of IAM he hasn't done you lot any favours has he? He was definately not one of the flat-cap brigade either.
Amen
Kinky said:
I did consider an advanced driving course but then I heard, and I apologise if this is incorrect, that I would be taught things like not signalling if there's no other car around. Now I thought, just because you can't see another car doesn't mean there isn't one there, and this put me off taking the course completely.
The bottom line for me is .... if there is clearly no-one around that would benefit from my signal - then I don't signal.
However, if I am at a junction of which I do not have clear visibility of any other cars - then I do indicate, in case a vehicle 'suddenly' appears. For example - at a blind junction - no cars behind me - but a car may appear which I would not see until I am at the junction itself.
I must assume that this also includes a pedestrian in a dark coat, at night, who has had a skinfull that might or might not look at you approaching a roundabout and wanting to turn left across the road he wants to cross,and you are not signaling, what is he supposed to think?.
This is a typical situation that if you indicated everytime, you and he would be safe.
Its not as though you are wasting electricity.
K
This thread has now run its course, I think.
It seems it has turned from a genuine enquiry about practical measures in "selling" the IAM to more/younger peopl into a chance for anyone who fancies to air their grievances about some aspect of either the IAM or individuals they have met who claim to have passed the IAM test.
Feel free to whitter on. If I was a mod I think I'd probably close this thread round about now...
It seems it has turned from a genuine enquiry about practical measures in "selling" the IAM to more/younger peopl into a chance for anyone who fancies to air their grievances about some aspect of either the IAM or individuals they have met who claim to have passed the IAM test.
Feel free to whitter on. If I was a mod I think I'd probably close this thread round about now...
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